BADDLS1SS

iTrader: (22)

Little long! Bear with me!

Got a 65e from a 2006 2wd Silverado SS. Its had a little rebuild history prior to me using it for anything but overall a good parts donor.

So built this thing up to live behind my maybe 430whp heads and cam 99 Camaro SS i have currently. The stock trans was getting the infamous 2-3 shift flare something fierce at WOT prior to the heads and cam setup.

So to start i deemed the case junk from the Silvy SS, the 3rd gear accum capsule had a botch repair prior, leaked like a sive around the capsule. Got a 06 used case from a 4.2 Trailblazer, put all the guts into it from the 65e incl a beast sunshell, PATC hardened output, PATC "shot peened" 65e input shaft, sonnax smart bolt together input drum, transgo shift kit, and sonnax 4th gear servo/cover. Had a circle d 11" 3000 stall in front of all of it.

1st round of issues: Made it 100 yards, snap ring popped out of servo cover, lost all movement for a moment, was able to regain M1 and R, limped back home, fixed servo cover and snap ring that i didn't have fully seated.

2nd round of issues: Once repaired from 1st issues, trans worked great except it didn't have 4th gear! PCM was applying 4th, but would basically stay in 3rd and TC would lock like normal. drove it a bit anyway as i needed to get it aligned, get 15 miles to alignment shop, they state reverse is bound up like a trans brake and N has forward movement. They finish the job anyway, i limp it home in 3rd as all forward gears work fine except 4th. could feel overrun clutches dropping in and out on way home too (lost engine braking)

Pull the trans that day, blow it apart and find one of the teflon rings (closest to pump) torn in half. Ahh ok must have ripped it on assembly, found the smoking gun for the bind up. Swapped my original 99 valve body over to the new trans knowing it shifted fine, that would prob fix 4th not applying. Sure enough it did fix all the major issues after i reassembled it.

3rd round of issues:

So within about 1 mile of the last rebuild the thing all of sudden felt labored after making a y turn, like starting in 2nd or 3rd (couldnt tell which due to converter soaking it up) then upshifts through 4th tc locks, all seems ok. get to next stop sign, it doesnt really idle forward on its own, i put it in manual 1 and it locks up like a trans brake again! Put it back in OD im able to get the labored start again. When i pull back into my driveway a mile later i feel it downshift to 1st on its own like it should and then manual 1, all that worked great again!

So to my last issue....

all seemed OK with the trans now since... only thing weird was in manual 3rd it didnt seem to have engine braking (overun) at all, seemed work ok in M2 and M1 though?

So i've got about 200 miles on this thing, feels nice, up shifts are perfect especially the 2-3. I'm out driving it and i roll into it a bit and it goes to make the 3-2 DS about 50mph and seems to flare! i let off immediately and goes back to 4th no problem. about a mile down the road i said to hell with it i'm standing on this thing, i mat it at 50, makes the 3-2 DS, immediately it revs and sounds like i ran over a garbage can! clanking and banging as i coast off to side of the road. Sounding like im dragging the exhaust haha.

Engine is locked up, wont turn over! I'm like **** did this thing wing a rod??? no oil leaks, no parts on ground... So i get it towed home, rip the trans loose of the engine and it comes off the dowels instantly, that never happens! Now suddenly i can turn the engine over and get all the TC bolts out.

So i find the TC is STUCK in the trans, had to slide hammer the sucker out! Here i found the broken input shaft! When the shaft broke it forces the TC into the flex plate which ground into the starter making all the metallic noises and the engine spooled down. I took it apart this weekend finally and the input it broke in 2 spots, the part with the teflon rings is STLL in the stator tube! The rest of the shaft was stuck in the TC (cant remove it!) which also sounds like rocks in it. and the other part was stuck in the sonnax smart drum. AMAZINGLY the shaft, stator and TC were the only things physically destroyed (well maybe the starter too, doesn't look pretty).

So my question for the pro's... HOW the hell does this happen on a 3-2 DS under power with no more than 430whp? the circle D TC was from 2011 and been in 2 other vehicles i owned, maybe 30k miles on it? Did the TC fail? bad shaft? something bind up on the downshift?

ALSO this thing has had a 3rd gear vibration at times is kinda nasty! Stock trans did too, i have an aftermarket mount for the trans too. The vibration wasnt consistent, only sometimes and after the TC would lock. If i didnt like it, id get it to DS to 2nd, let upshift to 3rd on its own, reapply the TC and the vibe was gone all the way... weird. Could be be that beast shell... but i have seen this before even with sonnax one.

clinebarger

I think any post you get to this thread are going to be guesses, Including mine.

4L60E Input shafts are not known to break, I have built MANY for 500 RWHP car/trucks with slicks/drag radials without a failure to date. Stock Output shaft failures are a lot more common.

I'm concerned with all the binding issues you have had, How do the Overrun frictions look?
Are any of the frictions burnt/distressed?
Is the reinforcement sleeve clocked correctly/indexed with the Overrun feed hole in the Input drum?

278mm converters are failure prone....Though I would be surprised if it caused your shaft failure.

Shot Peening a 4L60E input shaft sounds like bullshit to me without a secondary machining process to clean up the ring lands, Speaking of......Did the sealing rings turn freely after resizing?

BADDLS1SS

iTrader: (22)

Good point on the sleeve position! I looked at it this morning and the sleeve was turned, but ALSO i could remove the sleeve by hand!? I don't know if its because the input shaft is out now? It did press on hard to begin with, i did have the shaft in it then too. But the feed hole is currently clogged with a chunk of metal and teflon seal too.

All the frictions look perfect in it yet too, Incl ones not pictured like the band, reverse input and low reverse are all perfect too. Over run, forward and 3/4 are shown.

The teflon rings did move freely within the grooves. Also pictured is the input shaft with the torn ring, i did find the other chunk in the stator tube when i tore it apart that time.

It did all air check ok prior to assembly before the failure.

As for my missing 4th it was getting 0 fluid behind the piston on the servo cover when it had the issue. It all air tested just fine. I'm pretty certain in the 06 VB i have, the 3/4 relay valve i had in backwards was the cause.

I was incorrect on the shot peening aspect.

Here is the description of the input shaft:

"4L65E Hardened Input Shaft for LS1 Type Transmissions. We take the new stock hardened 4L65E shaft then have a heat treating process performed to improve rigidity and strength. These are much more rigid than the factory 4L65E shafts. We rate these double hardened factory shafts up to 580 torque! Made from new OEM 4L60E input shafts. New 4L65E shafts are stronger than new 4L60E shafts."

https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/...transmissions/

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

I cant say for sure what caused your failure but I did notice you have a very late non oring pump but an early input shaft I am curious if you might have the wrong input shaft / stator pump combo. Late models to accommodate the reluctor ring the moved the input shaft Teflon rings closer to drum and modified the pump and stator accordingly But note it did not have to actually have the reluctor to have had this done nor does the pump necessarily have to have the spot in the pump for the ISS but can have the hole just above the top ring on the input shaft inside the stator for the ISS sensor this will cause that ring to be destroyed repeatedly but not necessarily immediately , With this you will get no overrun or all forward as lube oil will apply the overrun clutch via the input shaft, Now since I cannot see inside the stator in your pictures I cannot know if this is true . But if so could be the source of your issues

As for for smart Drum if the collar will slide off by hand but is not broken or cracked the drum is damaged cracked or something and is useless.

But as said earlier GUESSES is what you will get for this and that is mine for whatever it is worth,

clinebarger

Hardening something isn't always the answer.....It can be to hard & in turn be brittle!

I would use a stock Input Shaft, I guess you still have the stock shaft?

Check the sleeve & drum very carefully for cracks, Try to insert a shaft back in the drum.....If it slides right in, Need a new drum!, If all is good....Press the shaft back in the drum using some retaining compound then see if the sleeve is now a interference fit.

clinebarger

I think your right, The pump cover (from what I can tell) is the later model.


BADDLS1SS, Do you have a better picture of the pump cover?

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

Clinebarger I agree on the Hardening my first AOD in my own mustang years ago I built and thought ill get a hardened center shaft and broke three of them , I then put a stock one in and no more breaking, Of note couple years later I took unit down and while the shaft had not broke it had twisted about 1/4 way around but it did not break ,

BADDLS1SS

iTrader: (22)

Here are some pics, it is all 06 pump, stator and so forth. The shaft i put in i was unaware of incompatibility to later stator tubes, thats probably all the overrun issues then. The input shaft pictured is what the trans had to begin with, i intend to use this one now. I will also get a 06 up iss style stator to match too.

clinebarger

The first pic is the pump cover, Get a pic of the other side.

Did the stator bolt ears get broke? You need to check the pump cover for being flat!

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

Ok if that last pic is of the shaft that went with the Pump you used with the other shaft that was is your problem and you cannot just change the stator Tube they are matched to the pump back also. Your choices are use the newer style pump and pump stator with the newer reluctor shaft or the opposite and get an older style pump and stator and use the earlier shaft. Either will solve issue, Note you can use the early style pump with the later case and actually use both the pump oring and push in seal at once. But one of those two choices I mentioned should solve your issue.

BADDLS1SS

iTrader: (22)

Here are pics of the pump cover other side. I had broke the 2 ears off the stator when i pressed it out, didnt realize they were caught on the support plate on my press. They were not broke to begin with.

hopefully the pics clear it up. I did press the reluctor style shaft into the smart drum, went in with similar force like it did when new, the 20 ton press had to work. The sleeve went on with some resistance, not extremely snug but i did use some loctite 620 retaining compound to help hold it.

clinebarger

Yep, As performabuilt thought....That is a "undrilled" ISS pump cover, I would use Sonnax 77918S-09K Stator support, Not really sure this piece has the splines are hardened like the OEM 4L65E/4L70E piece you have pictured but it's not a big deal in my opinion.

BADDLS1SS

iTrader: (22)

Thanks for the input guys, the parts are on order, ill get it put back together and source another converter here soon too and toss it back in the car and try it!