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Yeah I'm tired of it not running bc of trans issues. So I'll get this one and then I'm done with 60e I'll build the th400 once the rest of the car is finished. This way I can still drive it every now and then
I have an Rpm 4l60 and have had it 4 years now. I kick *** with it. I have had plenty of 10 sec passes with no issue. The key is to have a good trans cooler, and to have it tuned properly.
Could you elaborate on this, in concentrated and exacting detail? Because that is what you told me (actually it was "put the settings back to stock") before my Level 5 70E and my Yank Converter failed in under 6000 miles.
As I remember it your company does not offer any supporting tuning advice or direction on tuning. So where does one obtain a "proper tune" or "proper tune information"?
This has nothing to with getting in a pissing match, just a bunch of empty words and no support after the sale once your product failed.
Since rebuilding our "Level 5" I have come to believe I may be the only "home gamer" running a pressure transducer off the case for logging and tuning line pressure. I know mail order and $100 dyno tunes don't include this feature.
So again, without any reference information (target pressures in and out of load) provided by the manufacturer or actual measurements (of line pressure), how does one get a "proper tune" in order to preserve their transmission?
Could you elaborate on this, in concentrated and exacting detail? Because that is what you told me (actually it was "put the settings back to stock") before my Level 5 70E and my Yank Converter failed in under 6000 miles.
As I remember it your company does not offer any supporting tuning advice or direction on tuning. So where does one obtain a "proper tune" or "proper tune information"?
This has nothing to with getting in a pissing match, just a bunch of empty words and no support after the sale once your product failed.
Since rebuilding our "Level 5" I have come to believe I may be the only "home gamer" running a pressure transducer off the case for logging and tuning line pressure. I know mail order and $100 dyno tunes don't include this feature.
So again, without any reference information (target pressures in and out of load) provided by the manufacturer or actual measurements (of line pressure), how does one get a "proper tune" in order to preserve their transmission?
That is a good point bc who is one to say a tune isn't proper.
Proper tuning and tuning advice comes from an experienced and competent tuner. Someone who is learning to tune their own vehicle is going to run into troubles and can cause more damage than good in their learning process.
I am no tuner. But I do understand how the process works. When you rescale your injector and MAF tables this skews the pressure tables in the transmission calibration because the injector and maf data generate a calculated torque value at a given load/rpm. When this is off the ECM isnt commanding enough line pressure to hold the clutches and they slip. This will kill a transmission in a very short amount of time.
There are 4 things that will normally cause a new transmission to fail.
1. Low fluid level
2. Poor cooler flow or cooler plugged up
3. Over heating from a poor cooling system
4. Improper tuning
All these listed above we have no control over once they leave our hands. And when a customer says hes tuning his own vehicle and isn't monitoring line pressure that automatically throws up a red flag. When someone has an issue all we can do is give scenarios that may have caused the failure and offer to get it back here and see what happened. If we find something we messed up we will take care of the customer and fix the transmission. But without seeing the unit there is nothing we can do. People always say "Well there is no way they are going to admit if they did anything wrong." And honestly we have made mistakes before and we do everything we can to make them right. But with the evidence presented over the phone it is very difficult to diagnose the problem without seeing it.
mOtOrHeAd MiKe I believe we offered to do the same for you but we couldn't guarantee that it would be covered 100% so you got upset with us, trashed us all over the internet and decided to fix it locally. Which is understandable in your situation because being from Canada the shipping was very expensive. We also noted that you did not use our provided converter, instead another brand that we do not recommend at all. The pictures you provided in your thread lead me to believe it was ultimately converter failure that kill your transmission.
We dyno test every automatic transmission that goes out the door. So we know it works properly before you get it.
Proper tuning and tuning advice comes from an experienced and competent tuner. Someone who is learning to tune their own vehicle is going to run into troubles and can cause more damage than good in their learning process.
I am no tuner. But I do understand how the process works. When you rescale your injector and MAF tables this skews the pressure tables in the transmission calibration because the injector and maf data generate a calculated torque value at a given load/rpm. When this is off the ECM isnt commanding enough line pressure to hold the clutches and they slip. This will kill a transmission in a very short amount of time.
There are 4 things that will normally cause a new transmission to fail.
1. Low fluid level
2. Poor cooler flow or cooler plugged up
3. Over heating from a poor cooling system
4. Improper tuning
All these listed above we have no control over once they leave our hands. And when a customer says hes tuning his own vehicle and isn't monitoring line pressure that automatically throws up a red flag. When someone has an issue all we can do is give scenarios that may have caused the failure and offer to get it back here and see what happened. If we find something we messed up we will take care of the customer and fix the transmission. But without seeing the unit there is nothing we can do. People always say "Well there is no way they are going to admit if they did anything wrong." And honestly we have made mistakes before and we do everything we can to make them right. But with the evidence presented over the phone it is very difficult to diagnose the problem without seeing it.
mOtOrHeAd MiKe I believe we offered to do the same for you but we couldn't guarantee that it would be covered 100% so you got upset with us, trashed us all over the internet and decided to fix it locally. Which is understandable in your situation because being from Canada the shipping was very expensive. We also noted that you did not use our provided converter, instead another brand that we do not recommend at all. The pictures you provided in your thread lead me to believe it was ultimately converter failure that kill your transmission.
We dyno test every automatic transmission that goes out the door. So we know it works properly before you get it.
I have the RPM level X 4l60e and a 4000 circle D triple disc. Now over 2 seasons, I run a lot of nitrous and drive my car everywhere. Last season we put in a glide and really didn't like it. For the gain in the glide I lost drivability so back to the 4l60e.
I will say Jeramy Formato from Faster Proms tunes my car which includes the trans. I shift over 7000rpm, and he told me a lot of trans problems come from guys not knowing how to control line pressure and what engine parameters change and effect the pressure.
I have the RPM level X 4l60e and a 4000 circle D triple disc. Now over 2 seasons, I run a lot of nitrous and drive my car everywhere. Last season we put in a glide and really didn't like it. For the gain in the glide I lost drivability so back to the 4l60e.
I will say Jeramy Formato from Faster Proms tunes my car which includes the trans. I shift over 7000rpm, and he told me a lot of trans problems come from guys not knowing how to control line pressure and what engine parameters change and effect the pressure.
Jeremy is a smart guy and a hell of a tuner. He is 100% right.
We have an RPM 4l60e in a friends car and its the only 4l60e that we have ever had last any amount of time.
The only person I have personally dealt with at RPM is Jeremy and I have nothing but good things to say. He took care of me before and he would be the only phone call I would make if I were looking for a performance 60/70e.
Proper tuning and tuning advice comes from an experienced and competent tuner. Someone who is learning to tune their own vehicle is going to run into troubles and can cause more damage than good in their learning process.
I am no tuner. But I do understand how the process works. When you rescale your injector and MAF tables this skews the pressure tables in the transmission calibration because the injector and maf data generate a calculated torque value at a given load/rpm. When this is off the ECM isnt commanding enough line pressure to hold the clutches and they slip. This will kill a transmission in a very short amount of time.
There are 4 things that will normally cause a new transmission to fail.
1. Low fluid level
2. Poor cooler flow or cooler plugged up
3. Over heating from a poor cooling system
4. Improper tuning
All these listed above we have no control over once they leave our hands. And when a customer says hes tuning his own vehicle and isn't monitoring line pressure that automatically throws up a red flag. When someone has an issue all we can do is give scenarios that may have caused the failure and offer to get it back here and see what happened. If we find something we messed up we will take care of the customer and fix the transmission. But without seeing the unit there is nothing we can do. People always say "Well there is no way they are going to admit if they did anything wrong." And honestly we have made mistakes before and we do everything we can to make them right. But with the evidence presented over the phone it is very difficult to diagnose the problem without seeing it.
mOtOrHeAd MiKe I believe we offered to do the same for you but we couldn't guarantee that it would be covered 100% so you got upset with us, trashed us all over the internet and decided to fix it locally. Which is understandable in your situation because being from Canada the shipping was very expensive. We also noted that you did not use our provided converter, instead another brand that we do not recommend at all. The pictures you provided in your thread lead me to believe it was ultimately converter failure that kill your transmission.
We dyno test every automatic transmission that goes out the door. So we know it works properly before you get it.
Let's be clear here: I am not going going to address the opinion or conjecture of the masses of this site, or those of Jeremy@RPM Transmissions. Full disclosure - I raced our TBSS at it broke, my choice - live and learn. If things are working wonderful for you - great - but, tell us why. Lastly, Jeremy knows how to find me if he wants to discuss any business matters further.
The question remains: What makes for a proper tune?
Let's remain objective about this and address the central point of the argument:
It is clear that most if not all mail-order transmission retailers cannot (can't is just saying you won't) provide this information about their product. Nor do they stipulate that at the time of sale that a pressure transducer (or even a gauge of what little use that is) be installed as a function of the warranty (burden of proof and what not) - God knows for the wholesale cost of less than $100 I would jam one in the side of an expensive transmission and provide the supporting files for tuning it if I wanted assurances the client is doing their due diligence (we all have a role in this). Moreover they also do not provide the operating parameters for target line pressure (in or out of load) for their product. Finally, unless you are driving/shipping your vehicle to a recommended/preferred "competent tuner" who is putting a transducer in the side of your transmission case and doing a comprehensive street tune (hours/days worth of labour) it is pretty safe to say little mind is paid for the average tuner/owner as to what is actually happening with the line pressure in that transmission.
So what is everyone doing? Other than just set it and forget it...
And while I haven't directly revisited that thread - because honestly I think it is going over most everyone's head, and no one seems keen to discuss the matter - I haven't seen the measured line pressure exceed 231psi under load; but, in fairness to myself I am not driving the truck a lot right now anyway (its Winter). That said, my vehicle is calculating load properly - it is a MAF-equipped overdriven-Procharged LS2 vehicle with injectors sized as such that did not require scaling the tune to fit them - it has a quality wide band (measuring in Lambda) and a pressure transducer on the fuel rail (I like data) so I know it is working well. The FMC/PCS consistently tracks against the parameters in the tune and against the calculated load (I am pretty certain it is making at least 400+ft/lbs by the time it rapidly enters positive manifold pressure at ~3300rpm), and the measured line pressure is consistent with this. In P/N and reverse everything is well within spec too.
The irony in all of this? To date the deviation from the "stock" transmission settings in our TBSS isn't very far.
Why do you suppose that is?
Well because (as I see it) the vast majority of internal transmission modifications are, in effect, analog - and as such pressure begins to operate more independent of its electronic overlords (remember the 4L60/65/70/75 more or less started life as a 700-R4). Simply put, if you have run-away, inconsistent, and/or low line pressure issues it is a mechanical issue first (assuming you did not modify the electronics and they are in good working order) - try diagnosing that without a pressure transducer in the case over the "life" of your "built" transmission, much less having the wherewithal to fix it. It might sound sexy to put a .200" drill bit through your separator plate... but don't.
So when someone tells you that your otherwise mechanically sound and well maintained vehicle (not experiencing low transmission fluid level, poor transmission cooler flow or a plugged up transmission cooler, and/or over heating from a poor cooling system) transmission failed for a reason - well it MUST be the tune, right?
Riiiiiight.
But, what tune and associated parameters did the retailer use on their "dyno" before kicking it out to the door to you as a "Level-elevenity-billion" transmission good to XXX horsepower (should be rated in torque with a maximum input speed, IMO)?
What makes for a proper tune?
Last edited by mOtOrHeAd MiKe; 02-25-2018 at 07:53 AM.
I have had 3 different RPM LVL 6 transmissions... I ran a LVL 6 in my low 10 sec turbo camaro for 3 years and it's still running strong with the new owner making 700ishrwhp. I beat on the car a lot and never had an issue.
I sold my old 408 car making a little over 500rwhp and the guy broke the cage in the lvl 6 trans. He had to spend $300 at a local shop to get the cage replaced so no big deal. Overall I have had great luck with RPM Transmissions. Hope that helps...
I didn't want to quote your entire post, which was quite impressive. Obviously you are very meticulous about managing the performance parameters of your vehicle and extremely knowledgeable besides.
My question is about the pre-delivery conversations you had (or didn't have) with RPM about the unit. I ask because when purchasing a $100 shift kit from Dana at Pro-built, even at my most modest bolt-on power levels, we had extensive conversation about my car, what I was doing with it, and he tailored the shift kit installation specs accordingly.
I have to believe that conversation about all aspects of the transmission's usage - including the need for a "proper tune" - would have taken place before the purchase was finalized.
I didn't want to quote your entire post, which was quite impressive. Obviously you are very meticulous about managing the performance parameters of your vehicle and extremely knowledgeable besides.
My question is about the pre-delivery conversations you had (or didn't have) with RPM about the unit. I ask because when purchasing a $100 shift kit from Dana at Pro-built, even at my most modest bolt-on power levels, we had extensive conversation about my car, what I was doing with it, and he tailored the shift kit installation specs accordingly.
I have to believe that conversation about all aspects of the transmission's usage - including the need for a "proper tune" - would have taken place before the purchase was finalized.
Thanks, I appreciate it. You probably understand why I took exception to being spoken to in a condescending fashion after the fact. Unfortunately, all I was told that I needed to do was put the transmission settings to stock and go; and obviously if the rest of the tune is accurate, as I have since learned, there should have been no issue with this approach.
The irony is Yank was really cool about the situation after they learned I wasn't calling to crap all over them and their product - and offered to make it right in a fair and equitable manner.
As the saying goes: Don't race anything you cannot afford to push off a cliff.
My recommendation is get a pressure transducer and log everything. If anyone wants my HPTuner Scanner files and the make and model of the transducer I am using I will gladly provide it. After that adjusting the tune is pretty easy- if required.
Let's keep this thread on the tech side of things, meaning "proper tune" considerations that apply in general, not a dispute over one specific transmission. There's some great tech info here and we'd like to see this thread continue in that direction. For service related issues that are specific to a first-person situation with a sponsor, please use the Sponsor Feedback section going forward (and please be sure to follow the rules within.)
02-18-2018, 06:35 AM
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