1st ever 4l60e Teardown 4WD to 2WD conversion 4l65e
05-22-2018, 07:42 PM
#43
Moderator
fakky, I think you are seeing somewhat of a consensus here on what is needed and what is not.
I'm glad the Sonnax Boost valve was recommended; I should have included that in my earlier post. That by itself will boost line pressure a little bit.
If you had a 150K mile trans, I would definitely recommend new electrics (solenoids, etc), but with 69K miles the existing ones should be fine; plus they are easy to replace later if needed.
Drill the separator plate 3rd feed hole to .093 or .101 and you should be good to go.
Even a tiny imbalance in the converter puts a lot of stress on the stator shaft bushings. Plus replace the front seal.
I've had a HF shop press for 20+ years and have just about worn it out from my many automotive projects. Between the sockets you already have, the HF bearing/seal pressing kit and a HF 3/4" socket set, you will have everything needed to change any of these bushings. The trick is to save the old bushing and use it as an "installer" for the new one.
Or find a local friendly trans shop and let them take care of a few tasks such as installing new bushings in a few places.
The GPZ105 frictions are available from TruTech TrANS (where "Jeff" is the owner). The more commonly useD BW "Hi Energy" frictions are equivalent and perhaps more readily available.
More important than buying extra parts is doing a careful build, especially is preventing leaks of the 3/4 apply fluid.
I'm glad the Sonnax Boost valve was recommended; I should have included that in my earlier post. That by itself will boost line pressure a little bit.
If you had a 150K mile trans, I would definitely recommend new electrics (solenoids, etc), but with 69K miles the existing ones should be fine; plus they are easy to replace later if needed.
Drill the separator plate 3rd feed hole to .093 or .101 and you should be good to go.
Even a tiny imbalance in the converter puts a lot of stress on the stator shaft bushings. Plus replace the front seal.
I've had a HF shop press for 20+ years and have just about worn it out from my many automotive projects. Between the sockets you already have, the HF bearing/seal pressing kit and a HF 3/4" socket set, you will have everything needed to change any of these bushings. The trick is to save the old bushing and use it as an "installer" for the new one.
Or find a local friendly trans shop and let them take care of a few tasks such as installing new bushings in a few places.
The GPZ105 frictions are available from TruTech TrANS (where "Jeff" is the owner). The more commonly useD BW "Hi Energy" frictions are equivalent and perhaps more readily available.
More important than buying extra parts is doing a careful build, especially is preventing leaks of the 3/4 apply fluid.
05-22-2018, 07:48 PM
#44
Launching!
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So mic'd everything out of curiosity and think I have a rough gameplan
current used/in trans
================
7x 0.056-0.060 frictions mostly 0.58 (guessing BW HE)
6x .092 kolene steels
0.188 backing plate
0.213 apply plate
I *think* unless anyone shoots me wrong ....... just going to go with the following on this first go around. Given the condition of the fluid/trans and clutch packs just going with a overhaul and 2WD swap as originally intended.
So parts list
Replace with BW HE 0.062 - 7 frictions
Keep the Kolene Steels and backing/apply plates
Use a Toledo Gasket/Seal kit for T74002GA for 2004 up ensure its correct for VB (bonded vb config) and my year donor truck
Deep Pan filter
Raybestos PRO series band
Corvette 2-4 Servo Kit
Green Goo
ATF Dex/Merc
2WD Housing
2WD Shaft/Reluctor
2WD VSS
Going to do some research on the sonnax parts for boost valve etc and decide. Cant find much info.
Will decide on reusing the band versus keeping the ordered one when I can comapre new/old alongside.
Think thats mostly it.
I will be offline for a the long weekend. But plan to clean all hardparts down with paintthinner/MineralSpirits
beforehand ....and bring inside ready for assembly when I get teh parts.
I also hope to make a video (maybe a few sections) of assembly as a record of what I did - for self docuemntation and critique
Will keep you all posted. Have a good long weekend.
current used/in trans
================
7x 0.056-0.060 frictions mostly 0.58 (guessing BW HE)
6x .092 kolene steels
0.188 backing plate
0.213 apply plate
I *think* unless anyone shoots me wrong ....... just going to go with the following on this first go around. Given the condition of the fluid/trans and clutch packs just going with a overhaul and 2WD swap as originally intended.
So parts list
Replace with BW HE 0.062 - 7 frictions
Keep the Kolene Steels and backing/apply plates
Use a Toledo Gasket/Seal kit for T74002GA for 2004 up ensure its correct for VB (bonded vb config) and my year donor truck
Deep Pan filter
Raybestos PRO series band
Corvette 2-4 Servo Kit
Green Goo
ATF Dex/Merc
2WD Housing
2WD Shaft/Reluctor
2WD VSS
Going to do some research on the sonnax parts for boost valve etc and decide. Cant find much info.
Will decide on reusing the band versus keeping the ordered one when I can comapre new/old alongside.
Think thats mostly it.
I will be offline for a the long weekend. But plan to clean all hardparts down with paintthinner/MineralSpirits
beforehand ....and bring inside ready for assembly when I get teh parts.
I also hope to make a video (maybe a few sections) of assembly as a record of what I did - for self docuemntation and critique
Will keep you all posted. Have a good long weekend.
05-22-2018, 07:55 PM
#45
Launching!
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fakky, I think you are seeing somewhat of a consensus here on what is needed and what is not.
I'm glad the Sonnax Boost valve was recommended; I should have included that in my earlier post. That by itself will boost line pressure a little bit.
If you had a 150K mile trans, I would definitely recommend new electrics (solenoids, etc), but with 69K miles the existing ones should be fine; plus they are easy to replace later if needed.
Drill the separator plate 3rd feed hole to .093 or .101 and you should be good to go.
Even a tiny imbalance in the converter puts a lot of stress on the stator shaft bushings. Plus replace the front seal.
I've had a HF shop press for 20+ years and have just about worn it out from my many automotive projects. Between the sockets you already have, the HF bearing/seal pressing kit and a HF 3/4" socket set, you will have everything needed to change any of these bushings. The trick is to save the old bushing and use it as an "installer" for the new one.
Or find a local friendly trans shop and let them take care of a few tasks such as installing new bushings in a few places.
The GPZ105 frictions are available from TruTech TrANS (where "Jeff" is the owner). The more commonly useD BW "Hi Energy" frictions are equivalent and perhaps more readily available.
More important than buying extra parts is doing a careful build, especially is preventing leaks of the 3/4 apply fluid.
I'm glad the Sonnax Boost valve was recommended; I should have included that in my earlier post. That by itself will boost line pressure a little bit.
If you had a 150K mile trans, I would definitely recommend new electrics (solenoids, etc), but with 69K miles the existing ones should be fine; plus they are easy to replace later if needed.
Drill the separator plate 3rd feed hole to .093 or .101 and you should be good to go.
Even a tiny imbalance in the converter puts a lot of stress on the stator shaft bushings. Plus replace the front seal.
I've had a HF shop press for 20+ years and have just about worn it out from my many automotive projects. Between the sockets you already have, the HF bearing/seal pressing kit and a HF 3/4" socket set, you will have everything needed to change any of these bushings. The trick is to save the old bushing and use it as an "installer" for the new one.
Or find a local friendly trans shop and let them take care of a few tasks such as installing new bushings in a few places.
The GPZ105 frictions are available from TruTech TrANS (where "Jeff" is the owner). The more commonly useD BW "Hi Energy" frictions are equivalent and perhaps more readily available.
More important than buying extra parts is doing a careful build, especially is preventing leaks of the 3/4 apply fluid.
You sent that as I was typing my gameplan.
thanks guys !!
Ill most likely add the sonnax boost valve. Just researching on sizes and impact to line pressure (0.047 stock goes to 0.049 or something ?)
thx
05-23-2018, 05:52 AM
#50
Launching!
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Did a quikc dry est/calc of clutch clearance.
Bottom of drum to where snap ring would start 1.44" ..... want a clearance of ~0.03 to 0.04
1.44 - (6 * 0.092 steels) - (.188+.213 plates) - (.04 clearance) / 7 frictions
approx 0.064 friction material depth ..........
So not sure if Im going to need a mix of 0.062 and .066 ............. or theres enough error in fitment or my measurements
Did also notice some of the buulders here like to use 8 frictions and the the thicker 0.080. Think Ill stick with what I had closer to OEM ..... due to the steels. If I was replacing them might consider that.
Bottom of drum to where snap ring would start 1.44" ..... want a clearance of ~0.03 to 0.04
1.44 - (6 * 0.092 steels) - (.188+.213 plates) - (.04 clearance) / 7 frictions
approx 0.064 friction material depth ..........
So not sure if Im going to need a mix of 0.062 and .066 ............. or theres enough error in fitment or my measurements
Did also notice some of the buulders here like to use 8 frictions and the the thicker 0.080. Think Ill stick with what I had closer to OEM ..... due to the steels. If I was replacing them might consider that.
05-23-2018, 06:59 AM
#51
Moderator
If you've been reading other recent posts here by Maroon and other experts, they strongly suggest always replacing the 3/4 clutch apply and backing plates and using the thickest that will work with your selected frictions/steels.
The extra hardened and precision set from Sonnax was also recommended.
Using all stock 4L65E 3/4 clutch parts will generally give you a starting clearance around .060-.070, which is more than optimal for a performance build.
Perhaps Maroon, perhaps Jay, perhaps someone else recently listed the exact apply, backing, friction and steel thicknesses needed for a great clutch.
Hmmm, maybe that was for 8 frictions; I listed a 7 friction combo a long time ago, but will need to find it again.
The extra hardened and precision set from Sonnax was also recommended.
Using all stock 4L65E 3/4 clutch parts will generally give you a starting clearance around .060-.070, which is more than optimal for a performance build.
Perhaps Maroon, perhaps Jay, perhaps someone else recently listed the exact apply, backing, friction and steel thicknesses needed for a great clutch.
Hmmm, maybe that was for 8 frictions; I listed a 7 friction combo a long time ago, but will need to find it again.
05-23-2018, 07:20 AM
#52
Launching!
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PBA
I use 8 .078" - .082" thickness Borg Warner Hi-Energy clutches all the time in my Street/Strip 3-4 clutch setup. In the 4L60E I use the stock .220" apply plate and a mix of .060" & .076" Kolene steels with a .128" top plate and the .062" snap ring. I try for .020" - .035" clutch clearance
I use 8 .078" - .082" thickness Borg Warner Hi-Energy clutches all the time in my Street/Strip 3-4 clutch setup. In the 4L60E I use the stock .220" apply plate and a mix of .060" & .076" Kolene steels with a .128" top plate and the .062" snap ring. I try for .020" - .035" clutch clearance
05-23-2018, 07:22 AM
#53
Launching!
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Yours
stock 4L65E 7-friction setup (IMHO the minimum for any 4L60E) has these parts:
.065 Hi-Energy Frictions (x 7)
.097 Steels (x 6)
.218 Apply Plate
.194 Backing Plate
.092 Snap Ring
This gives you a .065 (or so) clearance which most performance builders would say it too much.
stock 4L65E 7-friction setup (IMHO the minimum for any 4L60E) has these parts:
.065 Hi-Energy Frictions (x 7)
.097 Steels (x 6)
.218 Apply Plate
.194 Backing Plate
.092 Snap Ring
This gives you a .065 (or so) clearance which most performance builders would say it too much.
05-23-2018, 07:24 AM
#54
TECH Junkie
7 CLUTCH
7x.080 Borg Warner Clutch
6x.076 Stock (Non kolene) Steel
0.193 Top Pressure Plate
0.220 Bottom Apply Plate
0.093 Snap Ring
8 CLUTCH
8x.080 Borg Warner Clutch
3x.080 Kolene Steel
4x.060 Kolene Steel
0.125 Top Pressure Plate
0.223 Bottom Apply Plate
0.062 Snap Ring
8 CLUTCH #2
8x.080 Borg Warner Clutch
2x .076 steel
5x .060 steel
0.157 (Stock) Top Pressure Plate
0.223 Bottom Apply Plate
0.062 Snap Ring
9 CLUTCH
9x.065 Borg Warner Clutch
5x.060 Kolene Steel
3x.077 Kolene Steel
0.125 Top Pressure Plate
0.223 Bottom Apply Plate
0.062 Snap Ring
Mix and match steel thickness to obtain clearance. 0.004 per clutch is a good target for clearance.
Always put thicker steels towards the center of the pack if mixing thickness
I would recommend 7 clutch for your setup.
7x.080 Borg Warner Clutch
6x.076 Stock (Non kolene) Steel
0.193 Top Pressure Plate
0.220 Bottom Apply Plate
0.093 Snap Ring
8 CLUTCH
8x.080 Borg Warner Clutch
3x.080 Kolene Steel
4x.060 Kolene Steel
0.125 Top Pressure Plate
0.223 Bottom Apply Plate
0.062 Snap Ring
8 CLUTCH #2
8x.080 Borg Warner Clutch
2x .076 steel
5x .060 steel
0.157 (Stock) Top Pressure Plate
0.223 Bottom Apply Plate
0.062 Snap Ring
9 CLUTCH
9x.065 Borg Warner Clutch
5x.060 Kolene Steel
3x.077 Kolene Steel
0.125 Top Pressure Plate
0.223 Bottom Apply Plate
0.062 Snap Ring
Mix and match steel thickness to obtain clearance. 0.004 per clutch is a good target for clearance.
Always put thicker steels towards the center of the pack if mixing thickness
I would recommend 7 clutch for your setup.
05-23-2018, 09:31 AM
#56
05-23-2018, 08:11 PM
#58
Moderator
Thanks for finding and posting my suggested 7 friction setup.While the .065 clearance is too much with 7 .065 frictions, you simply reduce it using a few .080 frictions.
And Maroon posted his excellent suggested setups too. Notice that mine has the thicker steels while Maroon has the thicker frictions. Which is better? I never got a consensus from different pros on that.
Sometimes you just choose according what parts you can get or have.
PM me if you might want phone help and I will give you my cell #. If I don't have the answer, I have the cell # of some of the pros whom I can ask.
You have researched this very thoroughly. I'm confident your assembly will go well.
And Maroon posted his excellent suggested setups too. Notice that mine has the thicker steels while Maroon has the thicker frictions. Which is better? I never got a consensus from different pros on that.
Sometimes you just choose according what parts you can get or have.
PM me if you might want phone help and I will give you my cell #. If I don't have the answer, I have the cell # of some of the pros whom I can ask.
You have researched this very thoroughly. I'm confident your assembly will go well.
05-24-2018, 08:57 AM
#59
Launching!
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Thanks for finding and posting my suggested 7 friction setup.While the .065 clearance is too much with 7 .065 frictions, you simply reduce it using a few .080 frictions.
And Maroon posted his excellent suggested setups too. Notice that mine has the thicker steels while Maroon has the thicker frictions. Which is better? I never got a consensus from different pros on that.
Sometimes you just choose according what parts you can get or have.
PM me if you might want phone help and I will give you my cell #. If I don't have the answer, I have the cell # of some of the pros whom I can ask.
You have researched this very thoroughly. I'm confident your assembly will go well.
And Maroon posted his excellent suggested setups too. Notice that mine has the thicker steels while Maroon has the thicker frictions. Which is better? I never got a consensus from different pros on that.
Sometimes you just choose according what parts you can get or have.
PM me if you might want phone help and I will give you my cell #. If I don't have the answer, I have the cell # of some of the pros whom I can ask.
You have researched this very thoroughly. I'm confident your assembly will go well.
06-03-2018, 11:13 AM
#60
Launching!
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Well ..... just a small update - delayed.
Most of the frictions, gasket kit, tailhousing/shaft etc arrived yesterday after local supplier couldnt get half of it except for ordering of ebay.
I have to fly to PA this week to do work.... so hopefully after that.
Im thinking about buying the sc-4l60e kit from ebay - seems to have some of the items you guys addressed for hydraulic integrity .......... I spoke with sonnax and they said the pump boost pressure will work with the later pumps with a shim - sound right I guess.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/sc-4l60e-So...pe!33708!US!-1
Will update.
thx
Most of the frictions, gasket kit, tailhousing/shaft etc arrived yesterday after local supplier couldnt get half of it except for ordering of ebay.
I have to fly to PA this week to do work.... so hopefully after that.
Im thinking about buying the sc-4l60e kit from ebay - seems to have some of the items you guys addressed for hydraulic integrity .......... I spoke with sonnax and they said the pump boost pressure will work with the later pumps with a shim - sound right I guess.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/sc-4l60e-So...pe!33708!US!-1
Will update.
thx