servos - 'vette and Sonnax 4th super hold ?
11-07-2018, 11:51 AM
#1
servos - 'vette and Sonnax 4th super hold ? I know these two can work together....but Sonnax recommends getting the GM spring 8681195 to prevent the 3-2 downshift clunk. Did I read on here that grinding the 4 notches in the (bell-shaped thing) will also prevent that clunk? Or do I have to order the spring? I have the longer Sonnax pin to adjust clearance. And does the 4th servo acts as the servo assembly cover?
Funny...only part of the rebuild that I'm uneasy about is the pushing in the filter!! I pushed the filter into the extension that came with the deep pan and the seal slid up the filter shaft. Normal? Thanks for any response. Jake
Funny...only part of the rebuild that I'm uneasy about is the pushing in the filter!! I pushed the filter into the extension that came with the deep pan and the seal slid up the filter shaft. Normal? Thanks for any response. Jake
11-07-2018, 12:38 PM
#2
TECH Junkie
What else is done to the trans? If you have a trans-go shift kit it will have springs for the servo.
Grinding the 4 notches will help with the clunk. It eliminates the accumulation and helps fluid exhaust also.
Also...why are you using a corvette 2nd gear servo but a billet 4th gear servo? Seems very very odd to me.
Grinding the 4 notches will help with the clunk. It eliminates the accumulation and helps fluid exhaust also.
Also...why are you using a corvette 2nd gear servo but a billet 4th gear servo? Seems very very odd to me.
11-07-2018, 02:38 PM
#3
I bought the 'vette servo before I knew of the 4th servo. Too new to 4l60e world! No major upgrades, really...torlon check *****, Sonnax 2-3 valve (I cut the gasket as per S's direction...thinking now I ought to have drilled the 1/8" hole), Sonnax SmartShell, BW frictions/steels in 3/4 along with GM apply and end plate, .490 boost valve, new seals and bushings, Transgo plate...redrilled the 2nd, 3rd and 4th holes, deep pan (filter install has me wondering), replaced plastic accum piston w/ aluminum versions, new sprags (new BW in front), new teflon seals. And I have reman GM convertor for it and am using an external cooler. Sounds kinda paltry now!
I have the SK-4L60E w/ PWM Boost Valve...I didn't use any of that. I read/heard about spring breakage with the kit and so stayed away from it. The gold rings might help with the servo install, I've read.
That's the long and the short of it...my first attempt at a rebuild (discounting my TH350 attempt in 1979). I 'think' it'll work...won't know before May..too much snow on the ground now. Maybe I'll rebuild the transfer case while I'm at it. lol
jl
I have the SK-4L60E w/ PWM Boost Valve...I didn't use any of that. I read/heard about spring breakage with the kit and so stayed away from it. The gold rings might help with the servo install, I've read.
That's the long and the short of it...my first attempt at a rebuild (discounting my TH350 attempt in 1979). I 'think' it'll work...won't know before May..too much snow on the ground now. Maybe I'll rebuild the transfer case while I'm at it. lol
jl
11-08-2018, 07:35 AM
#6
TECH Junkie
.090 is fine. I am always .060
For the boost valve...no idea what you're talking about with a PWM boost. Transgo SK supplies two orange pressure regulator springs to increase line pressure. It uses stock boost valve and pressure regulator valve.
If you mean the trans-go TCC valve. I would put it in. I have used it on almost every single one of my builds in the last 3 years and have had 0 issues related to that valve.
For the boost valve...no idea what you're talking about with a PWM boost. Transgo SK supplies two orange pressure regulator springs to increase line pressure. It uses stock boost valve and pressure regulator valve.
If you mean the trans-go TCC valve. I would put it in. I have used it on almost every single one of my builds in the last 3 years and have had 0 issues related to that valve.
11-08-2018, 09:21 AM
#7
I personally prefer to stay away from anything transgo. Their **** fixes one issue but causes another. In my experience anyways. Sonnax is the gold standard for me. Pretty much everything they make is top notch. It just feels like with transgo stuff your rigging **** up. I don’t do “shift kits”. That is junk. The transmission will last ten plus years from the factory and then some “trans builder” will rebuild it and it lasts much much less time. Why? Because these guys think they know more than GM and start changing a bunch of ****, creating more problems. I believe in keeping it simple. Keep tolerances on the tighter end of Gm’s recommendation, don’t go tighter because “you” thinking it’s better, that just cause more drag and wear. I try and eliminate leaks as much as possible (pistons, 2-4 band pin and servo assembly etc) and then I’ll drill the 3-4 feed holes out a little in the spacer plate because it does need a little more fluid flow to those clutches. You’ll notice in later models the holes are much bigger from the factory. Basically I don’t try to re-engineer circuits in the Trans and keep it close to stock calibration. And I’ll upgrade the hard parts that are usual suspect. Something to keep in mind, you adding shift kits and causing harder shifts causes extra stress on the already weak hard parts. You don’t want it to slip (much) but you don’t want hard shifts. Just crisp, quick and firm. Hopefully I didn’t offend anyone and this post was not aimed at any person in particular. Just my firm belief and experience.
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11-08-2018, 03:19 PM
#8
I agree...just aiming at rebuild, with a few new parts added for durability, e.g. the Sonnax SmartShell. One of the sponsors on here alerted me to some of the Transgo pieces and the effect they can have. I did pick up a Transgo plate and drilled out the 2, 3 and 4 holes according to recommendation by two pro builders. I did remove the input shaft and reinstall it with Locktite 638...and the stock capsule's tight. I drilled an .030 hole in the low/reverse piston and removed the check ball at the rear of the valve body, in accordance with ATSG's instructions in the their updated (green) manual.
Bought a shift kit from J.C. Whitney for my '74 Nova when I was 18...gave me tire chirps on the 1-2 shifts but I was replacing universal joints every other week...and I suspect it wasn't easy on the tranny, either...TH350's behind a stock 350 cid engine were pretty stout, though, weren't they?
Sonnax says the 4th servo will work with the 'vette servo, so I went with that. I only had two questions....will cutting the 4 notches remove the requirement for the GM spring recommended by Sonnax, and does the 4th servo serve as the servo-bore cover. To the first question I'd have to say 'I don't know,' and to the second I'm thinking yes but would prefer a response from one of the many competent builders and hobbyists on here.
How many times can I remove the valve body without having to replace the valve body gaskets? Once, twice...?
And I have no idea if my attempt at a rebuild will work...fun working through it, though....and if it fails I'm a whole lot less intimidated at going back into it.
Jake
Bought a shift kit from J.C. Whitney for my '74 Nova when I was 18...gave me tire chirps on the 1-2 shifts but I was replacing universal joints every other week...and I suspect it wasn't easy on the tranny, either...TH350's behind a stock 350 cid engine were pretty stout, though, weren't they?
Sonnax says the 4th servo will work with the 'vette servo, so I went with that. I only had two questions....will cutting the 4 notches remove the requirement for the GM spring recommended by Sonnax, and does the 4th servo serve as the servo-bore cover. To the first question I'd have to say 'I don't know,' and to the second I'm thinking yes but would prefer a response from one of the many competent builders and hobbyists on here.
How many times can I remove the valve body without having to replace the valve body gaskets? Once, twice...?
And I have no idea if my attempt at a rebuild will work...fun working through it, though....and if it fails I'm a whole lot less intimidated at going back into it.
Jake
Last edited by jalfredprufrock; 11-08-2018 at 03:27 PM.
11-08-2018, 11:41 PM
#9
I have been using TransGo for 40+ years now and I find their stuff, their approach and knowledge to be far ahead of the others. I have many transmissions and my kits installed in 700R4's & 4L60E's doing fine for many years now. TransGo keeps it simple, not reinventing every part in the transmission as Sonnax does, and needing a high dollar tool to go along with some of their stuff. Yes, I use a lot of the factory, TransGo, a little of Sonnax and what I have come up over the years and to make these units last. You stated: The transmission will last ten plus years from the factory and then some “trans builder” will rebuild it and it lasts much much less time. Why? Because these guys think they know more than GM and start changing a bunch of ****, creating more problems. I believe in keeping it simple. Who changes more in the transmission, and thinks they know more than GM? TransGo or Sonnax....
Last edited by PBA; 11-09-2018 at 12:00 AM.
11-09-2018, 07:50 AM
#10
TECH Junkie
Here's my opinion on the simple answers to OP question
1. yes grind the 4 notches. If you installed the servo springs like the SK from transgo says to...then you don't need the other spring
2. yes the cover is part of what is special about the sonnax part. When you order the servo for 4th from sonnax, it will come with the conver
3. I would recommend removing the valve body as few times as possible without new gaskets.
1. yes grind the 4 notches. If you installed the servo springs like the SK from transgo says to...then you don't need the other spring
2. yes the cover is part of what is special about the sonnax part. When you order the servo for 4th from sonnax, it will come with the conver
3. I would recommend removing the valve body as few times as possible without new gaskets.
11-09-2018, 11:01 AM
#12
I have been using TransGo for 40+ years now and I find their stuff, their approach and knowledge to be far ahead of the others. I have many transmissions and my kits installed in 700R4's & 4L60E's doing fine for many years now. TransGo keeps it simple, not reinventing every part in the transmission as Sonnax does, and needing a high dollar tool to go along with some of their stuff. Yes, I use a lot of the factory, TransGo, a little of Sonnax and what I have come up over the years and to make these units last. You stated: The transmission will last ten plus years from the factory and then some “trans builder” will rebuild it and it lasts much much less time. Why? Because these guys think they know more than GM and start changing a bunch of ****, creating more problems. I believe in keeping it simple. Who changes more in the transmission, and thinks they know more than GM? TransGo or Sonnax....
sonnax addresses real issues. Like 3-4 clutch failure. Smart drum and hardened apply plates. Leakages in the Trans.... pinless billet pistons, sealed 2-4 servo pin. They don’t try to recalibrate a bunch of junk and try and reroute fluid like transgo does. To me, transgo is a bunch of baggies full of Springs, *****, plugs and drill bits and valves. Sonnax makes real hard parts. Anyone doubting this, head on over to each website and look for yourself. You’ll see that sonnax provides upgrades to hard part breakage problems and offers real solutions to real problems where transgo offers reprogramming kits and valves. None of the crap they offer is going to stop a input drum from breaking. Sonnax offers a reinforcement kits that works well. Transgo does not offer billet 2-4 servo kits. They don’t offer pinless accumulator pistons that from the factory wear out the pin hole in the pistons and cause a massive leak. I could go on and on. Upgraded hard parts is much more needed that “recalibration” kits. That stuff is just junk in my humble 20+ years experience opinion.
11-11-2018, 01:41 AM
#13
Again the I gather from this that the factory did not know what they were doing. Yes, Sonnax does address some problems, but many are not real problems.
TransGo will tell you that they do not offer much more than what is in their Shift kits, and have never said they would.
They said, they would leave it to the aftermarket to make the additional parts that are out here now. Pinless forward accumulator is ok. The other 1-2 pinless piston changes the accumulator stroke travel since the piston is much longer than the oem accumulator piston. However, why not make a "hardened" thin pin like I offer to go along with the aftermarket 1-2 accumulator piston that has a much longer pin bore. That way you keep the accumulation rate the same as oem if that is what you are after. The 2.84 gear set is a complete waste of money, as the rpm drop from first to second is almost identical as the 3.06 gear set. A 6,000 rpm shift gets you 120 rpm closer on the 1-2 shift, and that was its selling point! Still waiting (4+ years) for someone to show any drop in ET using this 2.84 gear set. Smart shell, good idea but really not needed. How often have you seen the bearing in the rear planet fail, rarely. The Smart Tech input drum, again a good idea and expensive,
however I have only seen two input drums break in the 3-4 snap ring area over the last 22+ years in many heavy duty and performance applications. Also coning is not the enemy it is made out to be. If it was, you would not see 4L60E's getting 250,000+ miles on them. So do you really want to spend the money for a very rare failure. The billet output shaft is another example of spending way too much money. I have been having output shafts cryoed for 20+ years. Take a good stock output shaft and have it cryoed. Cryoing cost apx $50 to $70. This is much cheaper than $450.00 or more that they sell for. I have never seen or heard of a cryoed output break. So I would say that it works. You said, They (Sonnax) don’t try to recalibrate a bunch of junk and try and reroute fluid like transgo does. You must have not noticed the title on their box. TransGo reprogramming kit. (To recalibrate is to reprogram) Its been on their boxes for over 40 years now, and I like their approach. I have been using the steel re-enforcement sleeve mainly in 4WD's & AWD's and high torque situations. I have had them made since the mid 1990's, long before Sonnax started carrying or making them. As TransGo has said, Sonnax makes a lot of stuff where there is very little problem. There is much more, but I think you get the point.
TransGo will tell you that they do not offer much more than what is in their Shift kits, and have never said they would.
They said, they would leave it to the aftermarket to make the additional parts that are out here now. Pinless forward accumulator is ok. The other 1-2 pinless piston changes the accumulator stroke travel since the piston is much longer than the oem accumulator piston. However, why not make a "hardened" thin pin like I offer to go along with the aftermarket 1-2 accumulator piston that has a much longer pin bore. That way you keep the accumulation rate the same as oem if that is what you are after. The 2.84 gear set is a complete waste of money, as the rpm drop from first to second is almost identical as the 3.06 gear set. A 6,000 rpm shift gets you 120 rpm closer on the 1-2 shift, and that was its selling point! Still waiting (4+ years) for someone to show any drop in ET using this 2.84 gear set. Smart shell, good idea but really not needed. How often have you seen the bearing in the rear planet fail, rarely. The Smart Tech input drum, again a good idea and expensive,
however I have only seen two input drums break in the 3-4 snap ring area over the last 22+ years in many heavy duty and performance applications. Also coning is not the enemy it is made out to be. If it was, you would not see 4L60E's getting 250,000+ miles on them. So do you really want to spend the money for a very rare failure. The billet output shaft is another example of spending way too much money. I have been having output shafts cryoed for 20+ years. Take a good stock output shaft and have it cryoed. Cryoing cost apx $50 to $70. This is much cheaper than $450.00 or more that they sell for. I have never seen or heard of a cryoed output break. So I would say that it works. You said, They (Sonnax) don’t try to recalibrate a bunch of junk and try and reroute fluid like transgo does. You must have not noticed the title on their box. TransGo reprogramming kit. (To recalibrate is to reprogram) Its been on their boxes for over 40 years now, and I like their approach. I have been using the steel re-enforcement sleeve mainly in 4WD's & AWD's and high torque situations. I have had them made since the mid 1990's, long before Sonnax started carrying or making them. As TransGo has said, Sonnax makes a lot of stuff where there is very little problem. There is much more, but I think you get the point.
Last edited by PBA; 11-11-2018 at 03:11 AM.
11-11-2018, 10:54 AM
#14
Again the I gather from this that the factory did not know what they were doing. Yes, Sonnax does address some problems, but many are not real problems.
TransGo will tell you that they do not offer much more than what is in their Shift kits, and have never said they would.
They said, they would leave it to the aftermarket to make the additional parts that are out here now. Pinless forward accumulator is ok. The other 1-2 pinless piston changes the accumulator stroke travel since the piston is much longer than the oem accumulator piston. However, why not make a "hardened" thin pin like I offer to go along with the aftermarket 1-2 accumulator piston that has a much longer pin bore. That way you keep the accumulation rate the same as oem if that is what you are after. The 2.84 gear set is a complete waste of money, as the rpm drop from first to second is almost identical as the 3.06 gear set. A 6,000 rpm shift gets you 120 rpm closer on the 1-2 shift, and that was its selling point! Still waiting (4+ years) for someone to show any drop in ET using this 2.84 gear set. Smart shell, good idea but really not needed. How often have you seen the bearing in the rear planet fail, rarely. The Smart Tech input drum, again a good idea and expensive,
however I have only seen two input drums break in the 3-4 snap ring area over the last 22+ years in many heavy duty and performance applications. Also coning is not the enemy it is made out to be. If it was, you would not see 4L60E's getting 250,000+ miles on them. So do you really want to spend the money for a very rare failure. The billet output shaft is another example of spending way too much money. I have been having output shafts cryoed for 20+ years. Take a good stock output shaft and have it cryoed. Cryoing cost apx $50 to $70. This is much cheaper than $450.00 or more that they sell for. I have never seen or heard of a cryoed output break. So I would say that it works. You said, They (Sonnax) don’t try to recalibrate a bunch of junk and try and reroute fluid like transgo does. You must have not noticed the title on their box. TransGo reprogramming kit. (To recalibrate is to reprogram) Its been on their boxes for over 40 years now, and I like their approach. I have been using the steel re-enforcement sleeve mainly in 4WD's & AWD's and high torque situations. I have had them made since the mid 1990's, long before Sonnax started carrying or making them. As TransGo has said, Sonnax makes a lot of stuff where there is very little problem. There is much more, but I think you get the point.
TransGo will tell you that they do not offer much more than what is in their Shift kits, and have never said they would.
They said, they would leave it to the aftermarket to make the additional parts that are out here now. Pinless forward accumulator is ok. The other 1-2 pinless piston changes the accumulator stroke travel since the piston is much longer than the oem accumulator piston. However, why not make a "hardened" thin pin like I offer to go along with the aftermarket 1-2 accumulator piston that has a much longer pin bore. That way you keep the accumulation rate the same as oem if that is what you are after. The 2.84 gear set is a complete waste of money, as the rpm drop from first to second is almost identical as the 3.06 gear set. A 6,000 rpm shift gets you 120 rpm closer on the 1-2 shift, and that was its selling point! Still waiting (4+ years) for someone to show any drop in ET using this 2.84 gear set. Smart shell, good idea but really not needed. How often have you seen the bearing in the rear planet fail, rarely. The Smart Tech input drum, again a good idea and expensive,
however I have only seen two input drums break in the 3-4 snap ring area over the last 22+ years in many heavy duty and performance applications. Also coning is not the enemy it is made out to be. If it was, you would not see 4L60E's getting 250,000+ miles on them. So do you really want to spend the money for a very rare failure. The billet output shaft is another example of spending way too much money. I have been having output shafts cryoed for 20+ years. Take a good stock output shaft and have it cryoed. Cryoing cost apx $50 to $70. This is much cheaper than $450.00 or more that they sell for. I have never seen or heard of a cryoed output break. So I would say that it works. You said, They (Sonnax) don’t try to recalibrate a bunch of junk and try and reroute fluid like transgo does. You must have not noticed the title on their box. TransGo reprogramming kit. (To recalibrate is to reprogram) Its been on their boxes for over 40 years now, and I like their approach. I have been using the steel re-enforcement sleeve mainly in 4WD's & AWD's and high torque situations. I have had them made since the mid 1990's, long before Sonnax started carrying or making them. As TransGo has said, Sonnax makes a lot of stuff where there is very little problem. There is much more, but I think you get the point.
Why eould you make a hardened pin when it’s not the pin that’s the problem? That makes no sense. The aluminum pistons wear out and the plastic pistons crack. The pinless pistons are absolutely the best solution. The smart drum is weaker than the beast. The first time I used one it broke in short order. That was only a 10.30 car. Put a beast in it like I had originally wanted to, and never had an issue again. The customer had requested the smart shell. Warping in the 3-4 clutch pack is absolutely a problem. I’ve seen it numerous times with my own eyes. It’s caused by the excessive flex allowed in the poor design 3-4 clutch pack location. If you decide you want to use thin steels and apply plates and then have enough power to cause some slippage, it’s going to heat that stuff up red hot and warp all of it. I’ve seen other builds come to me and the clutches and steels were rainbow colors and coned live a Belleville steel.
If your buikding a stock trans for a stock vehicle, then most of this does not apply. When I’m building something for stock, the only upgrades I do are a beast shell, high energy clutches and plastic check ***** and a .490 or .500 boost valve. The beast is a no brainer. I always change the sundhell because it’s a weak point and fatigues so why not spend a few extra bucks for piece of mind? The plastic check ***** prevent beating the separator plate up.
11-17-2018, 01:43 PM
#15
The harder the metal surface is, the longer the part will last, even if the other part that it wears against is softer. Take the anodized valves in the 4L60E. The hard coat anodizing is used to increase the wear resistance, and it does this very well in the vast majority of cases, and this hard coat anodized part is much harder than the normal steel valve that is replaced. With this accumulator pin being hardened to 52RC, (oem pin apx. 23RC - 26RC) and .0002" - .0003" larger in diameter than the oem accumulator pin, makes for a fairly tight fit, which is what you want since aluminum expands at a faster rate than steel, thereby keeping the pin to bore clearance at a minimum. This hardened pin and the aftermarket aluminum accumulator piston having a much longer pin bore (.725") than the oem accumulator piston (.475"), makes for a setup that wears very little. I have seen them with over 50K miles on them, with very little wear at all. The harder the pin, the less wear on the aluminum piston bore. I use the GM heat treated sunshell in everything that I build or put into my rebuild kits. This has been in everything from mid nines in the quarter mile to most everything thing else that I have put together in the last 13+ years. I have never had a failure, or had a customer have one fail on them. If the customer wants the Smart shell, it is available. In the 3-4 clutch pack, warping can happen, however not for the reason that you think. It is not the thin steels that cause the problem here. It is the type of clutch material and how much oil it can hold. With the Borg Warner Hi-Energy clutch material, you have the best that is out there in terms of dynamic holding power and great wear capabilities, and this clutch will hold more oil than any Red type of clutch material. The oil is what removes the heat from the clutch pack on apply. If the oil cannot remove enough heat on the shift, it can burn the clutch material. When this happens (glazing of the clutch material), the oil can no longer go in and out of the clutch material and remove any heat. Now the clutch having lost its holding power, starts to slip and this produces a lot of heat, which can warp the steel clutch. Naturally the thinner the steel the easier it is for it to warp, however the clutch was already gone, so the warping is irrelevant here. It does not matter that the steel is warped, the clutch was toast first, not the steel warping first. The steel clutch did not cause the problem here, the clutch material having failed to hold is. There are many reasons why the clutch can fail, too slow of a shift, not enough capacity (total clutch area), not enough line pressure, etc.