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Quick question. my new output shaft did not come with the reluctor ring on it. so i pressed my old one off. heated it and cooled the shaft and pressed it on. it got stuck half way and i had to put a good bit of force on it to move, it popped real loud and sounded like it broke. it did not, but i could slide it on and off. so in desperation (thought i was gonna finish it last weekend) i used some loctite sleeve retainer to hold it on. seems to be holding pretty well, i tapped it decently hard with a hammer and it didnt move. Roll with it or buy a new one?
If there are those of us who've kept the STOCK 4L60E alive at 550whp for years, I sure as heck hope that Kfxguy's will stay together being that he's been doing this awhile and its fully built.
Quick question. my new output shaft did not come with the reluctor ring on it. so i pressed my old one off. heated it and cooled the shaft and pressed it on. it got stuck half way and i had to put a good bit of force on it to move, it popped real loud and sounded like it broke. it did not, but i could slide it on and off. so in desperation (thought i was gonna finish it last weekend) i used some loctite sleeve retainer to hold it on. seems to be holding pretty well, i tapped it decently hard with a hammer and it didnt move. Roll with it or buy a new one?
Man, you are this far. Go to WIT and get the $5 part that you need.
Well i'm pretty frustrated. I had to work Saturday so I didnt fool with it. I worked on it all day sunday. I ran into problem after problem. First one was the output shaft did not come with a reluctor. I tried reusing the original but that didnt work well. So I ordered a new one from the dealer. I also made a nifty tool to press it on the perfect distance. I use a piece of stainless tubing and squared the ends in my lathe. Then i made a press in aluminum cap that stops the tube by hitting the end of the shaft one the reluctor wheel is on the perfect distance.
I go to put the pump in, won't go. wtf. I thought it was the teflon seals because one got nicked. I change them both. same problem. I later find out the "new" hardened shaft needed to be polished. At least thats what I thought. I say "new" because upon further inspection, I've determined that they are used shafts and they are just hardening and shot peening. At this point I'm getting really frustrated because chucking the drum up in my lather required disassembly of the input drum. I did it twice. and had to clean it when I was done. After the second time and about 6 teflon seals being cut....later....I figured out my bushings in the pump stator must be jacked up. How when the original input drum and shaft fit and work just fine. I changed one bushing and the shaft fit right in. So i gotta pick up some more of the front bushings so i can change the other one. After looking at another drum I noticed ther wasnt much of a chamfer on the low reverse drum bearing....causing it to catch. This is what i get when I work on stuff being exhausted. I should have just walked away but I was determined to have it built yesterday. Still did not happen.
My sonnax smart shell came in (more on that in a minute) and my kolene forward and over run steels came in. The smart shell pretty much looks like a stock shell that has a welded reinforcement ring on it. I weighed both shells with their bearing or thust washer. so the MUCH heavier ( I emphasize sarcasm) beast shell weighs 54.67oz and the smart shell weighs 53.47oz. I wish i would have known that before because I bet saving an ounce of weight would have made a huge difference! Lmao.
I've weighed...and seen posts of others that have weighed the beast and the smart shell
genuine (not knock off) beast was nearly 10 oz heavier
Regardless...the weight isn't the big deal...its the imbalance. The beast is not balanced.
Even then...that's not the be-all-end-all. A slight imbalance probably wouldn't cause any huge issues. I've had one or two builds that I suspect a small vibration is caused by the beast...but it's really not a huge deal at all.
I still think the biggest benefit to the smart shell is the way it handles the thrust issue. Helps keep the planets from getting destroyed.
And yes...the sonnax piece is just a hardened GM shell with a special welded bottom plate. That's not a secret, but it is proven to work pretty well!
I've weighed...and seen posts of others that have weighed the beast and the smart shell
genuine (not knock off) beast was nearly 10 oz heavier
Regardless...the weight isn't the big deal...its the imbalance. The beast is not balanced.
Even then...that's not the be-all-end-all. A slight imbalance probably wouldn't cause any huge issues. I've had one or two builds that I suspect a small vibration is caused by the beast...but it's really not a huge deal at all.
I still think the biggest benefit to the smart shell is the way it handles the thrust issue. Helps keep the planets from getting destroyed.
And yes...the sonnax piece is just a hardened GM shell with a special welded bottom plate. That's not a secret, but it is proven to work pretty well!
i have a real beast too but i cut the center out so I can’t weigh it. But I did measure the thickness of it and the spline area. It all measures the same. The only area that it’s slightly different is the radius that the spline area. But not 10oz worth. No way. I have a beast in a trans on the floor I’m about to tear apart. I’ll weigh it just to be sure.
If it being balanced helps then that’s worth it to me although I never noticed any vibration. But can you imagine all that cheesy crap in that transmission Turning 7000rpm? The thought of that makes me shake my head. If you think about it, the whole assembly isn’t even supported that well.
Hey hey what’s your thought on using a roller bearing between the pump and the low reverse drum? I could easily machine the stator shaft and I found that one of the other bearings in the trans fits perfectly. I’m not saying I’m going to do it, but I’m intrigued.
If you think about it, the whole assembly isn’t even supported that well.
With the few builds I have, this has always stood out to me. How it kinda just sits in there. Im surprised there is not a lot of issues with how it engages with the reverse input drum.
With the few builds I have, this has always stood out to me. How it kinda just sits in there. Im surprised there is not a lot of issues with how it engages with the reverse input drum.
mason makes a center support bearing but I’ve been scared to try it.
I wasn't saying the weight or the balance is really a big deal. I don't think they are. It's the thrust loading that i appreciate the most about the sonnax part.
I have talked to mason about the center support bearing. I can't say too much, but stay tuned.
And as for the weights...I weighed just drum vs drum. No bearings etc at it was like 8g
The beast is significantly thicker throughout...even though its only the spline area that ever has issues.
I honestly think that the sonnax is the best part...just for the thrust loading. Other than that, I have no problem with a stock GM hardened shell, or the beast. I have used all 3 and had success all around.
As for the rev input drum bearing...I ask you to consider how much wear you see in that area first off. second off...where are you going to remove material to fit the bearing? From the flange on the stator tube? doesn't sound like an ideal place to be taking material from.
I personally don't ever see enough wear or indications of wear that would justify any potential gain. But, I do think its a neat idea...and if you do it...you should document it for the rest of us.
I wasn't saying the weight or the balance is really a big deal. I don't think they are. It's the thrust loading that i appreciate the most about the sonnax part.
I have talked to mason about the center support bearing. I can't say too much, but stay tuned.
And as for the weights...I weighed just drum vs drum. No bearings etc at it was like 8g
The beast is significantly thicker throughout...even though its only the spline area that ever has issues.
I honestly think that the sonnax is the best part...just for the thrust loading. Other than that, I have no problem with a stock GM hardened shell, or the beast. I have used all 3 and had success all around.
As for the rev input drum bearing...I ask you to consider how much wear you see in that area first off. second off...where are you going to remove material to fit the bearing? From the flange on the stator tube? doesn't sound like an ideal place to be taking material from.
I personally don't ever see enough wear or indications of wear that would justify any potential gain. But, I do think its a neat idea...and if you do it...you should document it for the rest of us.
8G Isnt much. I wasnt aiming it at you either, someone else had said the beast is much heavier, without actually weighing it. I have this pet peeve about people that speak from NON experience. It just irks the **** out me. I cant stand the people who will act like they know how to do something, tell you how to do it but have never actually done it themselves and cant do it themselves.
I was going to remove material from the stator flange. I've also considered the minimal amount of wear in the area. Thats why i'm really not that gungho on doing it. Just was more or less a thought or and idea....especially when a suitable bearing was sitting on my workbench that would work with minimal effort.
If you care to share what you and mason were planning, you can pm me, i'm interested. trans is still Apart so options are still on the table. Do you think its worth doing while its apart? problem is, the output shaft i have is hardened and i think i'd have a rough time machining the end of it.
I will see if I can find the part numbers for this. This was tried over 25 years ago. You did not need to machine anything off of the back of the pump. The bushing was taller and the bearing hung on the outside diameter of the bushing. However it is not really needed here as the reverse input drum "floats" (no forward or rearward load), and that is why there is very little if any wear on the thrust washer. I do not find it necessary to change this to a bearing setup, as there has never been a problem here. As for the "beast" it is heavy and is not balanced. This imbalance will show up in 3rd gear and go away in 4th gear. The "Smart Shell" is a good idea, however the failure of the contained bearing in the rear planet, is very rare. So is it really necessary. I offer it because people want it, however I tell them the OEM heat treated spline sunshell is fine. So it is their choice to whether they want it or not.
I will see if I can find the part numbers for this. This was tried over 25 years ago. You did not need to machine anything off of the back of the pump. The bushing was taller and the bearing hung on the outside diameter of the bushing. However it is not really needed here as the reverse input drum "floats" (no forward or rearward load), and that is why there is very little if any wear on the thrust washer. I do not find it necessary to change this to a bearing setup, as there has never been a problem here. As for the "beast" it is heavy and is not balanced. This imbalance will show up in 3rd gear and go away in 4th gear. The "Smart Shell" is a good idea, however the failure of the contained bearing in the rear planet, is very rare. So is it really necessary. I offer it because people want it, however I tell them the OEM heat treated spline sunshell is fine. So it is their choice to whether they want it or not.
the oem heat treat shell would be just as good holding 600-700hp as a beast?
I have never had nor any of my customers had a failure using the oem heat treated sunshell. This is in everything from low nines, off roading, towing, etc.
If i'm not mistaken you posted once something about adding a inner spring to the heavier sonnax spring......I believe in keeping things simple, and its worked well for me so far.
That was me. Just a tid bit to get max volume out of a pump by keeping the slide over just that much longer at high rpm. I put a washer on the over pressure spring to prevent the roll pin from cutting a coil too but that doesn't mean everyone needs to. But with pressure being as important to an auto trans I want to have the highest probability to keep it up.
I'll go back in my hole and keep quiet now.
Keep up the posts, I'm learning a bunch. Luv me sum of that 4L79 thing with the th350 exedy clutches.
That was me. Just a tid bit to get max volume out of a pump by keeping the slide over just that much longer at high rpm. I put a washer on the over pressure spring to prevent the roll pin from cutting a coil too but that doesn't mean everyone needs to. But with pressure being as important to an auto trans I want to have the highest probability to keep it up.
I'll go back in my hole and keep quiet now.
Keep up the posts, I'm learning a bunch. Luv me sum of that 4L79 thing with the th350 exedy clutches.
ill post more about it this weekend. I had another snafu. My 3-4 clearance ended up at .065 and I felt like that was too much clearance. I like .035-.045 so I had mason send me a couple thicker steels. Somehow I mucked up one of the return springs. I think u set something on top of it by accident and bent it. He wouldn’t take any money from me for the steels, the spring or shipping. I’m no mooch, and I tried to pay for it, but I do like dealing with companies like this. I can’t say enough about how helpful he’s been. I’m no newb when it comes to building these units. I will admit I don’t know everything either. But I do like to learn from others and get info and opinions. Any time I emailed him with a question about anything, he gave me his honest opinion. Even if it meant him not selling me something else. So to anyone out there considering an upgraded drum, give him a holler. There’s three different levels of drums. I did use the mid level one on a customers trans and it used 4l60 regular frictions but had the screw on cap for extra capacity. Then there’s the 350 clutch version with a snap ring drum. That was the version I almost went with but I decided just to go all the way with it. If I destroy it again, I’ll fix it and sell it and put a built 6l90 in it. There’s two companies making stand alone controllers now.
I got it running Saturday night. Went for a drive down the road yesterday (started raining and I’m on drag tires) and it shifts perfect. I made a quick hit in 1st and 2nd gear and it dhifts Perfect and very fast. Soon as I moved the shifter it shifted.
I didnt have time to take pics and narrate through the build process because while I was working in it I picked up two more build jobs and the people need them pretty quickly so I had to get moving on it.
Ok well. I was riding around and something just broke. Not sure what. Stuck on side the road as I type this. The only thing I can tell is I was on it and it went “bam” and then it didn’t want to pull anymore. It like something in the trans locked up. I thought I blew the motor but I looked at my logs. After and timing were good and the engine was still running for a few seconds after. No rattles. I have it gas and it’s like it was in a bind and didn’t want to go. Then the engine dies and it won’t turn over. It will make about half a revolution almost like the battery is dead. My guess is something in the trans let go and welded it’s self. I’ll undo the flywheel bolts when I get home and see if the engine will crank. Keep you guys posted.
02-07-2019, 11:09 AM
