TriShield

An official 'Ring lap time for the 2013 Shelby GT500? SVT's Chief Nameplate Engineer expounds why none exists



We certainly seem to have stirred up a bit controversy with our recent article chronicling Nürburgring lap times for a few very potent Pony/Muscle Cars. In one corner we have the 2013 SVT Shelby GT500 Mustang, home of the most powerful production V8 on planet Earth; and in the other we find the Chevy Camaro (in both ZL1 and Z/28 flavors). A couple weeks earlier we posted an exclusive video of the GT500 running a very impressive estimated lap time of just a shade under 7:40, which brings us to the point of contention.

During our dissection of the Ford footage; we had 100% raw, unedited, footage we used Chevy’s widely publicized Camaro videos as a frame of reference for lap starting and ending points. That’s where things really started to get intriguing. To the naked eye it appears that GM may have been shaving their lap times a bit by fiddling with their timers. Though definitely not conclusive the screenshots in this thread are rather damning:

That brings us to an email exchange I had with Ford's Global Performance Vehicle Chief Engineer Jamal Hameedi. I really just had one simple question, why doesn’t Ford release Nürburgring lap times for the GT500. Jamal’s answer was highly insightful, to say the least. Check out the full exchange below:

Originally Posted by SID297

Greetings Jamal,

How are you? As I'm sure you're aware we've been busy the GT500
Nürburgring lap video that the media group included among the other track
runs. I was wondering if you could shed some light on why Ford chose to
not release an official 'Ring time for the 2013/14 GT500?

Thanks,
Travis

Here's is the reply from Ford's Global Performance Vehicle Chief Engineer:

Originally Posted by Jamal Hameedi

Ring times! Oh man don't even get me started on this topic. Our (my) view is that there is no such thing as an official manufacturer Ring time. The times being posted by many manufacturers are in my humble opinion akin to qualifying times being set at a race with no pre/post inspection (ie it would never happen). In the racing world - inspection/verification is a key part of the sport. In order for us to set an "official" time corner weights would have to be taken, calibration checksums need to be verified, engine power verified via chassis rolls, a hoist inspection, and probably a fuel sample taken by an independent 3rd party like a governing/sanctioning body. I would love to see this since everyone seems to be infatuated with Ring times. Having said that, I think it's really important that performance cars be judged against one another on the track - but the comparisons really need to be on the same day by a professional driver (just track condition from day to day puts another huge variable in comparisons). We have seen lap time spreads of over 3 sec with same car same driver different day at VIR. Now extrapolate that to a track with a 7 min lap time. Motor Trend collects cars on the same day and puts a professional driver behind the wheel - not journalists whose driving ability puts yet another huge variable in lap times - and compares vehicles same driver same day. I think they do it correctly. So does Auto Motor und Sport in Germany.

The reason we test at the Ring is because it is a fantastic venue for doing vehicle dynamics work. You get so much different content in terms of turns, elevation, etc that you would need to visit 5 different tracks to duplicate it. It's also a chance for our North American vehicle dynamics guys to cross pollinate with our Team RS guys since we are all one group now. Team RS gets a chance to offer feedback on the RWD cars and the SVT guys offer perspective on the FWD cars. That's really powerful and worth spending the money to send cars and engineers over there. Renting the Ring exclusively ($$$$$!) to make a video - not so much. I'd rather put that money into the car.

I know this isn't what the internet bench racers want to hear. As soon as there is a standard for measuring lap times - our performance vehicles will be the first in line to get tested. Until then - it's just marketing and a total free for all. They are very cool to watch though. Lol. The 2013/2014 GT500 sold just fine without a published Ring time (who could have imagined!). Actually we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make more GT500s due to high demand. I've seen other performance cars with published Ring times being offered with incentives and cash on the hood (again - who could have imagined!). So I sleep pretty well at night. And spend my days (and nights) working on the next slayer vs. worrying about Ring times.

Hopefully this gives you some perspective on where our minds are at wrt Ring times.
See you at SEMA!

Jamal

Z Fury

iTrader: (1)

Impressive response, and I completely agree with him.

-Ross-

iTrader: (2)

Good enough for me.

Do you have a link to this article? I'd like to share it.

TriShield

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/27/f...ring-lap-time/

It is a thread on svtperformance that Autoblog wrote about today.

2 FASST SS

I don't think the time is important . What road car is used to race with superchargers anyway. I'm surprised the GT500 made it around the track at all with those horrible brakes. I would never use a supercharged car as a road car. Not even a ZL1 or ZR1. I would drive the crap out of the 1LE or Z06 though.

LS1vazquez

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. If all the big boys are playing in the sandbox then Ford needs to get in there also. Sounds like his explanation is a bunch of smoke and mirrors jargon bullshit, especially with the "independent third party fuel sample." ***** please. Get out there and drive the car.

I think the real reason is because if they are probably coming up short and don't want to release the number.

badformulaLS1

iTrader: (1)

What is this "most powerful production v8" crap I keep seeing. Are they just pretending that in their little fantasy world where Fords don't suck that exotics like Ssc ultimate aero, and the Agera, and more don't exist?

NW-99SS

iTrader: (6)

This.

Irunelevens

His explanation makes complete and total sense. We've all been witness to the uproar created when a manufacturer releases an "official" Ring time; everybody second guesses it, evidence is found of tampering with vehicle specs, etc. Unless of course it's your favorite manufacturer running the time, then it's just "Wow that's great!" His point was that it's kind of a pointless thing to compare. And obviously the GT500 isn't "coming up short," as was shown in those video comparisons. If two cars are that close, they're just that close. Short of running them same day/same driver, you're never going to get an accurate comparison.

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

i think the key word in there is "Production". Maybe some can clarify but I think for a car to be considered production it has to sell more than 50 cars a year, or something another.
Basically Ford is saying that their V8 is the most powerful of any mass produced vehicle.

ThisBlood147

What a thoughtful post Ford simply chooses to stay away from the 'Ring time publishing game...aka marketing campaigns. Of course, the diehard GM supporters are going to cry BS and make up conspiracy theories about how shitty all of Ford's cars are doing on their Nordschleiffe times.

Besides which, your "theory" isn't even viable. It precludes that Ford knows what GM is going to run in all of its products (even those that have yet to see release) and then decides that they (Ford) "can't do it better" with their own products...so they just choose not to publish numbers at all. Yes, that sounds waay more likely than Ford's guys just seeing through the pure marketing hype that surrounds times posted by manufacturers at the Nurburgring and electing not to partake. [sarcasm]

As an afront, I'll offer this...there's absolutely NO evidence made available to the general public that ANY time posted by any given manufacturer on the Nordschleiffe is certified to have been run by a 100% factory stock specimen on 100% production stock tires. So, ppl just have to choose which times to believe or not believe....thus rendering the times themselves meaningless in the process. No standardization for posting times = doubt that the times are genuine. That's all I've got to say on the matter...and it just happens to coincide with Hameedi's views on the very same subject.

It'llrun

The bigger story to me is that the article openly states it appears GM lied about its own ET's with the ZL1. That would be huge news if someone verified. Fact is, we all know how unlikely it is for an American to take his/her car to the ring...

You agree with Hameedi! Well, on the lack of importance for the ring time. As for the brakes, at least drive the thing before you blindly act as if the 'bad brakes' type comments you've read must be completely true. Keep in mind, that car has beaten, tied or been close to the ZL1 on several tracks, so the brakes might not really be as bad as some claim.

See, the thing is... what had happened is... They DID!

Pay attention to the article. There's even a picture of the car on the ring, for goodness sake, right here to see. Ford did go to the ring, so blurting out they should "Get out there and drive the car" is pointless. They did and people who examined the lap claim it was roughly 7:40 and that's not a bad time over a 12 mile course.

Fact is, the "argument" for not releasing numbers is far more sound than your approach. It's not that they haven't been there and done that, but that they don't feel a need to tell the world, when they aren't who will be racing them in general and they think renting the ring for purposes of manipulation is or can be deceiving to their audience.

Besides, as has been said, different conditions are just the most obvious issue, but there are more. Who knows if the cars being run there are 100% "as sold new" stock? Who knows what fuel is used? Who knows if the numbers then given are even the same as the numbers actually run?

From all the things we've seen released about racing here in America, the GT500 more than simply holds its own against it's ZL1 competition. Prime example: It's SMASHES the ZL1 on the dragstrip. Then, it does almost identically well on various road course venues. Somehow though, you've decided Ford is simply falling short over on the German track... They kick *** where the cars are actually sold, but... but ...but over there... They're not good enough, so they're hiding it! GOT IT!

caseypayne69

Maybe the Ssc doesn't meet production term standards. The GT500 is the most powerful V8 out right now, period on a "production" vehicle.

caseypayne69

Motortrend or car and driver does it best at the VIR. They visit the track with seven or eight cars same day and use the same driver.

I love nurberg times for conversation purposes but when you think about it, they are vague.

Did the manufacturer change the air in the tire, mess with steering ratios, engine tuning? No one knows. The dumbest thing GM did was brag about the Z28 beating a 911 Carrera S by one second. By he problem is that the Z is a track car and the 911 Carrera S is still amazing off the track and has creature concerts.

I'd still take the 911.

2 FASST SS

Agreed

deft

iTrader: (7)

...but they did take it around the track. So post the time. Even if it's not great, people will still buy the car.

How can you expect people not to arrive at the conclusion that the time is slower if they just make (viable) excuses and state they'll never publish the time?

Irunelevens

Because the video is there. Their point was that they use the track as a tuning tool, not to prove who is faster. Because of all the reasons that were listed. If they released a time, the very thing that he said would happen...would happen.

sick_tight

damn GM and their cheating ways...

and its absolutely true that the reason they dont post their times is because they dont want the bench racers to see that they dont perform well enough.

if theres no regulation then why dont they just post their times, nothing to lose if your product is performing as you like. i think its stupid that a company doesnt post any times officially because somebody could be cheating. if that were the case then EVERY car magazines review is invalid because there werent 3rd party fuel tests/chassis tests/ect

also the Z28 time achieved was on a damp course so i could see a little more wiggle room since its "not that impressive." or was that the cheating run they did?

if you dont believe the ring times just jump on over to the laguna seca times. seem pretty consistent

not butt hurt but just find it funny.

It'llrun

People will still buy it, regardless. It's not about that.

You expect they have common sense, perhaps? Lap times are only about bragging rights and that's all they'll ever be about, unless it's a race for money and in reality, this one isn't.

I doubt anyone actually thinks that, but bragging rights are only worth so much.

We've already read that they ran a 7:40 and that's not bad. In fact, I'd say it's well enough indeed. To beat that performance with another stock car, you'll spend more in almost any case.

It isn't about cheating. It's about perception vs reality. Most current Camaro and Mustang owners will never take their car to the ring. These companies could be using racers who know the ring like others know Indianapolis Motor Speedway... They may be using their own engineers. We don't know.

Eh, the Z is far and away more expensive and lacks nearly all creature comforts. Not cheating, just using the race car to perform like a daily driver. That's like Ford using the top line King Cobra to run the drag race against a ZL1. The GT500 will easily get the win, but hey...

There are several American tracks to look into instead. I mentioned that early, but many seem fixated in the ring.

sick_tight

i agree, honestly i think its wrong to judge a car on just one track. some tracks give higher HP cars advantage with the straights and some take advantage of a better handling car.

either way i think the mustang is a great car, i still like GM more but you cant deny the 5.0 is a stout car. especially the GT500 which is what a 5.4

i cant wait for these next gen stangs and camaros to hash it out.