Formula 1 is dead to me.
06-20-2005, 03:13 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by 93LS1RX7
Oh and then they bitch cause the bridgestone was a safer/better tire?? Who picked to use the Michelin? It was their choice. They got BIG money for running that tire shut up and run what you brung
06-20-2005, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by technical
Actually FIA has already begun setting the rules for the 2008 season and a single tire manufatcurer was one of their new regulations. (pending)
At least that's what I heard on the "tele."
At least that's what I heard on the "tele."
Here they are.
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...160605-02.html
06-20-2005, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Shinkaze
More Drama, the 7 teams that "boycotted the race" are being called to a special hearing at the FIA to face, fines and penalties. This is the FIA trying to pin the blame on the Teams. What a crock is this.
Typical politicians. Maybe they'll calm down once they get back to those awesome european strip clubs.
06-20-2005, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Shinkaze
What kind of crap reporting is that?
I mean I was rather pissed by the whole thing, but that entire article doesn't do jack to explain what happened and why. This is the sumation of the reporting from that article.
Great coverage.
Articles like that are just looking to point the finger at someone rather than find a solution to the problem.
-Adam
I mean I was rather pissed by the whole thing, but that entire article doesn't do jack to explain what happened and why. This is the sumation of the reporting from that article.
Great coverage.
Articles like that are just looking to point the finger at someone rather than find a solution to the problem.
-Adam
1 tire rule, it's junk, it's not safe, it created the problem this weekend, but both the FIA and Michelin are to blame here. If the FIA wanted to do the right and safe thing for both the drivers (from a competition standpoint) and the fans (from the standpoint of they paid to see the show), they woulda cancelled the race or PP it. Plain and simple. They didn't. For whatever reasons they want to blame it on, politics, Michelin, Ferrari's clout, who cares. They coulda resolved this, refunded the (@ least 7,225,000 bucks, that's 85 bucks a head times approx 85,000 spectators, that they grossed) and coulda saved face because it was the "safe and gentlemanly" thing to do. But, that didn't happen, and from a marketing stand point where they are second rate to NASCAR and NHRA and IRL here in the states (does anyone even watch or follow CART anymore?), it might have shown they have some good will towards their fans, which from a business stand point is good if they want to tap the largest market in the world. Hey, their loss, perhaps our gain, who knows, but to call this sensationalistic reporting, while it has flair, I think that's a bit far off. If you want counter balance, you shoulda read the FoxSports.com excerpt from Speed Channel's Wind Tunnel with Dave Dispane. Hope that helps. I was only pointing out what I thought was a funny headline.
06-20-2005, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sb427f-car
Dang schinks...take a chill pill. I thought the headline was funny. The majority of the US doesn't give two hoots about the F1 and the FIA because we feel as though they have always snubbed us and cared less about us. Hell, isn't the FIA based in France? I mean come on. I think the article had some decent points from a fan's perspective. I totally agree with you about the 1 tire rule, it's junk, it's not safe, it created the problem this weekend, but both the FIA and Michelin are to blame here. If the FIA wanted to do the right and safe thing for both the drivers (from a competition standpoint) and the fans (from the standpoint of they paid to see the show), they woulda cancelled the race or PP it. Plain and simple. They didn't. For whatever reasons they want to blame it on, politics, Michelin, Ferrari's clout, who cares. They coulda resolved this, refunded the (@ least 7,225,000 bucks, that's 85 bucks a head times approx 85,000 spectators, that they grossed) and coulda saved face because it was the "safe and gentlemanly" thing to do. But, that didn't happen, and from a marketing stand point where they are second rate to NASCAR and NHRA and IRL here in the states (does anyone even watch or follow CART anymore?), it might have shown they have some good will towards their fans, which from a business stand point is good if they want to tap the largest market in the world. Hey, their loss, perhaps our gain, who knows, but to call this sensationalistic reporting, while it has flair, I think that's a bit far off. If you want counter balance, you shoulda read the FoxSports.com excerpt from Speed Channel's Wind Tunnel with Dave Dispane. Hope that helps. I was only pointing out what I thought was a funny headline.
1 tire rule, it's junk, it's not safe, it created the problem this weekend, but both the FIA and Michelin are to blame here. If the FIA wanted to do the right and safe thing for both the drivers (from a competition standpoint) and the fans (from the standpoint of they paid to see the show), they woulda cancelled the race or PP it. Plain and simple. They didn't. For whatever reasons they want to blame it on, politics, Michelin, Ferrari's clout, who cares. They coulda resolved this, refunded the (@ least 7,225,000 bucks, that's 85 bucks a head times approx 85,000 spectators, that they grossed) and coulda saved face because it was the "safe and gentlemanly" thing to do. But, that didn't happen, and from a marketing stand point where they are second rate to NASCAR and NHRA and IRL here in the states (does anyone even watch or follow CART anymore?), it might have shown they have some good will towards their fans, which from a business stand point is good if they want to tap the largest market in the world. Hey, their loss, perhaps our gain, who knows, but to call this sensationalistic reporting, while it has flair, I think that's a bit far off. If you want counter balance, you shoulda read the FoxSports.com excerpt from Speed Channel's Wind Tunnel with Dave Dispane. Hope that helps. I was only pointing out what I thought was a funny headline.Of course now that I've done some reasearch it appears to me that Ferrari's isn't really taking the high ground either. According to this article, Ferrari took a $100M Bribe by Bernie Eccelstone to not join the GPWC (in effect killing the GPWC) and stay under FIA ruling. In effect Ferrari is now the FIA's little bought mouth in F1.
Also, estiamtes are as high as $13M for the total ticket damages alone from Sunday. Nevermind the hotels, flights, time off work, etc. I'm sure that's even more.
Man what a BS FUBAR.....
Great Article
What is this really all about?
The FIA World Motor Sport Council has called representatives of the seven Michelin teams to appear before them at the next meeting, which will be held in Paris on Wednesday, June 29. The Council has the power to punish the teams involved - if it can work out some reason why teams, acting on the grounds of safety, should be punished for doing so. It is hard to imagine that the Council will rise up against FIA President Max Mosley, who many believe is the man who should be in the firing line after the debacle in Indianapolis, and so there is doubt that justice will be done.
If the Council does punish the teams, there will inevitably be knock-on effects. There may be appeals processes and we will once again have to plunge back into the argument about whether or not the FIA Court of Appeal is independent or not. The alternative, which seems to be getting ever closer, is that teams will simply start to boycott the FIA Formula 1 World Championship in order to force the issue. One can imagine a situation in which only a handful of cars will turn up at the Grands Prix ahead. That is not being alarmist. Things have been getting out of hand for some time now and the battle must eventually come to a head.
What is important to ask is why there is a battle. Who is fighting for what in the current war? And the answer one comes up with is that the fight is for Formula 1 itself. The teams do not like the way that the sport is run, they do not like the way the regulations are going and they do not like the way income generated by the sport is redistributed. You can argue all day about who is right and who is wrong but while all this is going on, the sport is being driven into oblivion. And that is what must be stopped.
There are some who will say that it is all part of a masterplan to push down the value of the sport so that the banks and big money walk away and leave the sport to the people who have been exploiting it for the last 20 years. It could be that this is the case but it is hard to know. All we do know is that the sport we love and want to see grow is being held back and, worse still, damaged.
In this extraordinarily unhealthy atmosphere the one thing that pops up over and over again is that a large percentage of the F1 community has little confidence in the FIA. Unpalatable as that may be to some, it is an indisputable fact. The federation can argue that time and again people have confirmed that they accept its decisions but while this may be true on paper, it is not the reality at all. Everyone in F1 knows that on several occasions, for a variety of different reasons, teams and manufacturers have been forced to back down and make conciliatory noises.
But this does not mean that there is confidence in the current management of the FIA. Indeed, the signs are that the opposite is actually the case. Mosley and his supporters may not like that - and to some extent it may or may not be fair - but it is a reality and that means that until something changes, one fight will lead to another until either teams start to quit F1 and Mosley wins control of a damaged sport or he is removed from office. The important question for F1 fans is which of these results is the more positive for the long term future of the sport.
This is a fight to the death and, as we saw in Indianapolis, the fans come second. This is wrong. They are what gives the sport its global significance, via their enthusiasm and their spending power, and to ignore their wishes, wellbeing and opinion is a sign that things have degenerated too far and must now change.
Boil the arguments down still further and one is left with a question: what logic is there in damaging a sport just so one can control the wreck that is left behind? While a governing body should be allowed to govern - as the FIA insists - one has to ask at what point is that going too far?
In our opinion what happened in Indianapolis was going way too far.
Coming back from the brink is a tough thing to do. What is needed is confidence in and respect for the FIA, amongst the competitors and amongst the media and the spectators. The FIA can bang on as much as it likes about independence but until people begin to believe in the federation once again, the problems are not going to go away.
The fact is that Formula 1 now is like a province that is split by discontent and resistance. In such circumstances the vast majority of the population wants to live in peace and be allowed to prosper. The problems are created by a small number of people. Experience has shown that if the trouble-makers are weeded out, the problems can be solved and peace and prosperity can return.
That is where Formula 1 sits today.
So what is in the best interest of the sport? Is it best that the teams pack up and leave or that Mosley moves on?
What do you think? E-mail us at info@grandprix.com we will publish all sensible and non-libellous responses, so that your voice can be heard.
The FIA World Motor Sport Council has called representatives of the seven Michelin teams to appear before them at the next meeting, which will be held in Paris on Wednesday, June 29. The Council has the power to punish the teams involved - if it can work out some reason why teams, acting on the grounds of safety, should be punished for doing so. It is hard to imagine that the Council will rise up against FIA President Max Mosley, who many believe is the man who should be in the firing line after the debacle in Indianapolis, and so there is doubt that justice will be done.
If the Council does punish the teams, there will inevitably be knock-on effects. There may be appeals processes and we will once again have to plunge back into the argument about whether or not the FIA Court of Appeal is independent or not. The alternative, which seems to be getting ever closer, is that teams will simply start to boycott the FIA Formula 1 World Championship in order to force the issue. One can imagine a situation in which only a handful of cars will turn up at the Grands Prix ahead. That is not being alarmist. Things have been getting out of hand for some time now and the battle must eventually come to a head.
What is important to ask is why there is a battle. Who is fighting for what in the current war? And the answer one comes up with is that the fight is for Formula 1 itself. The teams do not like the way that the sport is run, they do not like the way the regulations are going and they do not like the way income generated by the sport is redistributed. You can argue all day about who is right and who is wrong but while all this is going on, the sport is being driven into oblivion. And that is what must be stopped.
There are some who will say that it is all part of a masterplan to push down the value of the sport so that the banks and big money walk away and leave the sport to the people who have been exploiting it for the last 20 years. It could be that this is the case but it is hard to know. All we do know is that the sport we love and want to see grow is being held back and, worse still, damaged.
In this extraordinarily unhealthy atmosphere the one thing that pops up over and over again is that a large percentage of the F1 community has little confidence in the FIA. Unpalatable as that may be to some, it is an indisputable fact. The federation can argue that time and again people have confirmed that they accept its decisions but while this may be true on paper, it is not the reality at all. Everyone in F1 knows that on several occasions, for a variety of different reasons, teams and manufacturers have been forced to back down and make conciliatory noises.
But this does not mean that there is confidence in the current management of the FIA. Indeed, the signs are that the opposite is actually the case. Mosley and his supporters may not like that - and to some extent it may or may not be fair - but it is a reality and that means that until something changes, one fight will lead to another until either teams start to quit F1 and Mosley wins control of a damaged sport or he is removed from office. The important question for F1 fans is which of these results is the more positive for the long term future of the sport.
This is a fight to the death and, as we saw in Indianapolis, the fans come second. This is wrong. They are what gives the sport its global significance, via their enthusiasm and their spending power, and to ignore their wishes, wellbeing and opinion is a sign that things have degenerated too far and must now change.
Boil the arguments down still further and one is left with a question: what logic is there in damaging a sport just so one can control the wreck that is left behind? While a governing body should be allowed to govern - as the FIA insists - one has to ask at what point is that going too far?
In our opinion what happened in Indianapolis was going way too far.
Coming back from the brink is a tough thing to do. What is needed is confidence in and respect for the FIA, amongst the competitors and amongst the media and the spectators. The FIA can bang on as much as it likes about independence but until people begin to believe in the federation once again, the problems are not going to go away.
The fact is that Formula 1 now is like a province that is split by discontent and resistance. In such circumstances the vast majority of the population wants to live in peace and be allowed to prosper. The problems are created by a small number of people. Experience has shown that if the trouble-makers are weeded out, the problems can be solved and peace and prosperity can return.
That is where Formula 1 sits today.
So what is in the best interest of the sport? Is it best that the teams pack up and leave or that Mosley moves on?
What do you think? E-mail us at info@grandprix.com we will publish all sensible and non-libellous responses, so that your voice can be heard.
06-20-2005, 03:58 PM
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I dont know if no tire competition means no need to innovate. Goodyear has come a LONG way for NASCAR to meet their requirements.
If it is a problem set the tire Manufacturers up on one or two year contracts. That way they have to keep moving forward or they lose the contract the next year. The problem is someone is getting some money in their pocket from both places so they are happy.
I agree about the Schumacher thing but you know what, they guy is an incredible car driver. If McClaren wants him or BMW wants him sack up the $$ if not be content with second place. You cant bend the rules to punish great drivers making them mediocre like the rest.
You know how to take away speed? Not tire crap, not restrictor plates, not engine requirements. You slow cars down by taking away downforce. That way a driver has to actually drive. Those cars can drive upside down they have so much downforce. I am not saying make it so the cars are unsafe but take away 1-2° of angle on the rear wing. They will either have to slow down or drive it like the world of outlaws.
NHRA is a great example. 8000+RWHP. theoretically if a Top Fuel car weighs 2100lbs (That is about what Schmachers car weighs) and makes 8500rwhp (Which they are capable of more but they "Detune" them theoretically by the "perfect" calculator they should run 3.628@372 mph. The reason they dont??? DOWN FORCE. You cant get grip you cant go forward.
If it is a problem set the tire Manufacturers up on one or two year contracts. That way they have to keep moving forward or they lose the contract the next year. The problem is someone is getting some money in their pocket from both places so they are happy.
I agree about the Schumacher thing but you know what, they guy is an incredible car driver. If McClaren wants him or BMW wants him sack up the $$ if not be content with second place. You cant bend the rules to punish great drivers making them mediocre like the rest.
You know how to take away speed? Not tire crap, not restrictor plates, not engine requirements. You slow cars down by taking away downforce. That way a driver has to actually drive. Those cars can drive upside down they have so much downforce. I am not saying make it so the cars are unsafe but take away 1-2° of angle on the rear wing. They will either have to slow down or drive it like the world of outlaws.
NHRA is a great example. 8000+RWHP. theoretically if a Top Fuel car weighs 2100lbs (That is about what Schmachers car weighs) and makes 8500rwhp (Which they are capable of more but they "Detune" them theoretically by the "perfect" calculator they should run 3.628@372 mph. The reason they dont??? DOWN FORCE. You cant get grip you cant go forward.
06-20-2005, 05:44 PM
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They should have a little honor. 7th position is better than DNF.
I find the media's reaction to fan throwing **** on the track amusing. The media seemed like they were surprised people would do this. If I paid for a ticket and flew across half of the country, I probably would have done more than that.
I do agree with the single tire manufacturer idea. I would deffinately eliminate this situation from happening again.
Another idea would have been to impliment a mandatory pit stop rule similar to that in CART. Make every car pit 2 or 3 times to change tires.
Just a bunch of arrogant over payed pussies. Let's face it though, why would the Europeans give two ***** about the American audience. I have a feeling they would be more willing to compromise on a solution if they were racing in their home town.
I find the media's reaction to fan throwing **** on the track amusing. The media seemed like they were surprised people would do this. If I paid for a ticket and flew across half of the country, I probably would have done more than that.
I do agree with the single tire manufacturer idea. I would deffinately eliminate this situation from happening again.
Another idea would have been to impliment a mandatory pit stop rule similar to that in CART. Make every car pit 2 or 3 times to change tires.
Just a bunch of arrogant over payed pussies. Let's face it though, why would the Europeans give two ***** about the American audience. I have a feeling they would be more willing to compromise on a solution if they were racing in their home town.
06-20-2005, 07:29 PM
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I think I've missed all the F1 races this year. I like watching the races just because the cars are so much different than anything you usually see. Too bad FIA is trying to force them to be equal. Much like NASCAR has been doing for years now. I use to be a big NASCAR fan but, haven't watched a full race(if I watch them at all) in several years now because of the "cookie cutter" drivers and direction NASCAR has been going with rule changes to make cars more equal. Part of motorsports is showing what the manufacturers are capable of and I see alot of racing bodies trying to eliminate that aspect which is ashame IMHO. 
06-21-2005, 09:15 AM
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all you guys are on crack, dissing formula one. shut up. You know who is to blame? The (7) teams that ran michelins. They were given a choice to have their speed slowed down and monitored in turn 13 but they refused and said the bridgestone teams would have to do the same. **** that. they were not the jackasses that ran michelins. The michelin teams should have stepped up to the plate and taken the speed penalty and give the fans a decent race. the chikane (sp?) idea was bogus. **** that why penalize the bridgestone teams for NOT being retards?!
06-21-2005, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bad2000ss
They should have a little honor. 7th position is better than DNF.
06-21-2005, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TanRchy
all you guys are on crack, dissing formula one. shut up. You know who is to blame? The (7) teams that ran michelins. They were given a choice to have their speed slowed down and monitored in turn 13 but they refused and said the bridgestone teams would have to do the same. **** that. they were not the jackasses that ran michelins. The michelin teams should have stepped up to the plate and taken the speed penalty and give the fans a decent race. the chikane (sp?) idea was bogus. **** that why penalize the bridgestone teams for NOT being retards?!
And how do you tell a race driver to cut his speed in Turn 13 when the Bridgestone cars are driving 150 kph faster? Can you imagine the carnage of having 6 Bridgestone cars ripping through the field at turn 13 going twice as fast as the 14 Michelin cars? That's a Pile up waiting to happen. Very unsafe and a silly suggestion.
06-21-2005, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by XLR8NSS
I think I've missed all the F1 races this year. I like watching the races just because the cars are so much different than anything you usually see. Too bad FIA is trying to force them to be equal. Much like NASCAR has been doing for years now. I use to be a big NASCAR fan but, haven't watched a full race(if I watch them at all) in several years now because of the "cookie cutter" drivers and direction NASCAR has been going with rule changes to make cars more equal. Part of motorsports is showing what the manufacturers are capable of and I see alot of racing bodies trying to eliminate that aspect which is ashame IMHO.
Anyhow I want to see the variety of platforms and the various pros and cons of each design. What I love about F1 is seeing the pinacle fo Automotive technology. Though I have to say I hate they keep restricting performance in the name of safety. Case in point the 1981 BMW motor made 1,500hp from a turbo 1.5 Liter motor. 20 years later the motors make less than 1,000hp. Anyhow, I understand why they did that since the driver's were blacking out in the corners, but taking away tire safety to slow down the cars is just plain stupid, and Sunday showed the result of that. You don't put a hard compound tire on a 200mph car in the name of safety.
-Adam
06-21-2005, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Shinkaze
And how do you tell a race driver to cut his speed in Turn 13 when the Bridgestone cars are driving 150 kph faster? Can you imagine the carnage of having 6 Bridgestone cars ripping through the field at turn 13 going twice as fast as the 14 Michelin cars? That's a Pile up waiting to happen. Very unsafe and a silly suggestion.
06-21-2005, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TanRchy
thats completely (sp?) untrue.
the speed difference would not be that great. Yes the michelin cars would be hindered (sp?) but like every race there is lap traffic GET TO THE RIGHT.
Cmon these people are professionals that brought the wrong tools to the race and should be penalized.
One thing I think we can all agree on was that pretty much all parties made decisions with disregards to the fans. Though I have the most compassion to the individual teams not wanting to jeopardize their drivers.
Keep in mind that there were 8 Michelin tire failures during qualifying leading to two wrecks. Autoweek has a good write up on the whole FUBAR.
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=102613
06-21-2005, 01:10 PM
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The underlying problem is exactly how Shinkaze describes. Nothing was done with regards to the fans. Without the fans the sport is nothing. There were plenty of solutions to the problem but no one thought about why they were there in the first place. Now Americans and maybe even the rest of the world can see just how politically handicapped F1 really is.
06-21-2005, 01:45 PM
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06-21-2005, 01:53 PM
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""I think it would have been better if they just posponed the race. Maybe even disqualify all the Michelin cars from points, put the Chicane in, and let the whole field run. That would have satisfied the safety issue, given the fans their race, and satisfied the FIA not wanting to show favoritism toward the Michelin-equiped cars.
One thing I think we can all agree on was that pretty much all parties made decisions with disregards to the fans. Though I have the most compassion to the individual teams not wanting to jeopardize their drivers.""
i agree the fans were not in the minds of the people calling the shots, but the chicane idea is totally unfair to the teams that had their **** together. but alas i think that sadly your chicane idea and lost points was the best option. bad day for racing
One thing I think we can all agree on was that pretty much all parties made decisions with disregards to the fans. Though I have the most compassion to the individual teams not wanting to jeopardize their drivers.""
i agree the fans were not in the minds of the people calling the shots, but the chicane idea is totally unfair to the teams that had their **** together. but alas i think that sadly your chicane idea and lost points was the best option. bad day for racing
06-21-2005, 03:08 PM
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by banned them i meant bann f1 racing from the U.S the governing body is a bunch of dip ***** making money of us and treating us like crap if any sport franchise in this country would treat their fans like that would be out of business in one season!!