Delphi files for Bankruptcy
10-08-2005, 08:36 PM
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10-09-2005, 08:37 AM
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I think it will be a reality check for the union. There was an article in the Detroit Free Press a few weeks ago where they looked at a Delphi line worker whose pay was dropping from $117,000 to $86,000 per year. Remember, this guy is unskilled labor, who probably couldn't find a job making 1/3 of that in the real world. I just can't feel sorry for these guys, the writing has been on the wall for too long, they should have gave back sooner and this might not have happaned.
The only question left is how long before this hapepns to GM.
-Geoff
The only question left is how long before this hapepns to GM.
-Geoff
10-09-2005, 09:55 AM
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I can't believe the money they make on a assembly line! wow... I hope Delphi keeps producing parts because I've had good luck w/ them. Just about all my OEM stuff from gm is Delphi.
10-09-2005, 12:19 PM
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Wow what a way to kick people while they are down. You must be one of the type people or maybe your dad is who is in the top group of Delphi mgt. people who this past week was given a new severance package which pays them for 18 months after they either get fired or just quit, plus they get all their bonuses for that period of time also. This comes durring the same week they file bankruptcy and make a statement that they are going to cut the retirees health care and benefits. Now these retirees are on a fixed income with now no health care and when they are at an age they need it most. If Delphi does go under, GM won't be far behind and with that look out for the economy to start dropping because for every GM/Delphi worker in the plant there is at least 3 outside contractors/suppliers who depend on these businesses for them to survive. So this might be a reality check for a lot of people. Also yes I do work for Delphi and I don't make anywhere near $117K or even $86k per year. I will make around $55-60k this year and I have three kids to feed, guess you think I'm blowing my extra money. You need to try and raise three kids and provide a home in a decent neighborhood on $10 an hour plus pay for their doctor bills and other needed items and then come back and tell me how much of a reality checK that is. I hope not just for me and my family that something is worked out but also for those workers at the small shops who depend on Delphi and GM to put food on the table for their families. Guess i'm not into seeing people put through bad times just to see top executives get bigger bonuses.
Tom
Tom
Originally Posted by White_Hawk
I think it will be a reality check for the union. There was an article in the Detroit Free Press a few weeks ago where they looked at a Delphi line worker whose pay was dropping from $117,000 to $86,000 per year. Remember, this guy is unskilled labor, who probably couldn't find a job making 1/3 of that in the real world. I just can't feel sorry for these guys, the writing has been on the wall for too long, they should have gave back sooner and this might not have happaned.
The only question left is how long before this hapepns to GM.
-Geoff
The only question left is how long before this hapepns to GM.
-Geoff
10-09-2005, 01:52 PM
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Not a family member of an employee, and I don't even know anyone who works at Delphi. I can't feel sorry for people who don't have free health care when they retire either. I don't have it, and neither does most of the US population - except for medicare. The people who already retired will be picked up by GM, people who aren't retired will go to the PGC and probably not have health care (like most people). Those executives could go get the same pay they are making at Delphi at any other company. The packages they got were to keep them there. How many of those $100,000 per year line workers in Flint can go find comparable jobs? I am going to guess none of them could. And 4000 people getting paid to do nothing? I think jobs banks are a little outdated too.
The union has failed itself. When everyone was paying their workers the same, pay was a mute point. Now, there are as many transplant assembly plants in the US as their are Big 3 plants. How many of those have been unionized by the UAW? ZERO. If they could have organized the new plants, things would still be level, and pay would still be a mute point. The problem is, you can't compete with somebody who get's his labor for 1/4 of the cost. And if you can't compete, you can't stay in business long.
People used to tell their kids to finish their dinner because people in India were starving. Now, you tell your kids to finish their homework because people in India will steal their job if they don't. The world has gotten and smaller and the UAW has been left behind by it. That is what what I meant by "reality check" - your union is still operating in 1955 and needs to look at the big picture. The steel industry went down the same way, and obviously the UAW either ignored it, or told themselves enough times "it can't happen to us" that actually believed it.
I don't envy your situation. Hopefully you saw the writing on the wall when GM divested Delphi a few years back and made the appropriate plans for the future. The writing has been there for a long time, though.
-Geoff
The union has failed itself. When everyone was paying their workers the same, pay was a mute point. Now, there are as many transplant assembly plants in the US as their are Big 3 plants. How many of those have been unionized by the UAW? ZERO. If they could have organized the new plants, things would still be level, and pay would still be a mute point. The problem is, you can't compete with somebody who get's his labor for 1/4 of the cost. And if you can't compete, you can't stay in business long.
People used to tell their kids to finish their dinner because people in India were starving. Now, you tell your kids to finish their homework because people in India will steal their job if they don't. The world has gotten and smaller and the UAW has been left behind by it. That is what what I meant by "reality check" - your union is still operating in 1955 and needs to look at the big picture. The steel industry went down the same way, and obviously the UAW either ignored it, or told themselves enough times "it can't happen to us" that actually believed it.
I don't envy your situation. Hopefully you saw the writing on the wall when GM divested Delphi a few years back and made the appropriate plans for the future. The writing has been there for a long time, though.
-Geoff
10-09-2005, 02:21 PM
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A couple of thoughts on this: It won't just affect GM if Delphi goes under . We use Delphi parts at Peterbilt ,also. We can switch suppliers but a lot of suppliers are hurting also.
As for the pay comments, I am a member of the UAW and I could possibly make over 117,000.00 a year if I want to work over 80 hours a week . I turn down a lot of overtime. If you work those type of hours , you deserve to be paid well. I am also not a mindless worker drone putting in two bolts every five minutes. I do the final prep , correct any minor defects and test the finished truck when it rolls off the assembly line.You have to know the trucks from top to bottom. This is a result of extensive training so the term "unskilled" does not apply.
As for the import manufacturers' plants here in the U.S. , most of them move into an area that will be very dependent upon their presence , and threaten to close and move the factory if they do unionize. Nissan does that here.You even mention you are a UAW member , most likely you will not get hired.
I am not a huge fan of the UAW but it has some good points that are never talked about while any bad points are.I work my tail off to earn my wages and I don't expect to be paid for doing a crappy job or giving my customers thrown together junk. The customers deserve much better than that and I would prefer they be happy over any member of management .When you think about it , they are the ones that keep me employed.
As for the pay comments, I am a member of the UAW and I could possibly make over 117,000.00 a year if I want to work over 80 hours a week . I turn down a lot of overtime. If you work those type of hours , you deserve to be paid well. I am also not a mindless worker drone putting in two bolts every five minutes. I do the final prep , correct any minor defects and test the finished truck when it rolls off the assembly line.You have to know the trucks from top to bottom. This is a result of extensive training so the term "unskilled" does not apply.
As for the import manufacturers' plants here in the U.S. , most of them move into an area that will be very dependent upon their presence , and threaten to close and move the factory if they do unionize. Nissan does that here.You even mention you are a UAW member , most likely you will not get hired.
I am not a huge fan of the UAW but it has some good points that are never talked about while any bad points are.I work my tail off to earn my wages and I don't expect to be paid for doing a crappy job or giving my customers thrown together junk. The customers deserve much better than that and I would prefer they be happy over any member of management .When you think about it , they are the ones that keep me employed.
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10-09-2005, 02:28 PM
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So if the union steps out of the way and the workers making the parts/cars make 1/3 the pay they do now, how much do you think GM will lower the price of their cars/trucks.? Will it be a 2/3 cut in the price?Answer= NOPE! I can tell you know nothing about our high paid mgt. people, most of them are there due to them not being able to do the 1st line supervisor job=Stupidity Gets Promoted!
4000 people in a job bank while the plant they work for has competitive work outsourced, how is this the workers fault? What I mean by this is mgt. needs to have a construction job/machine built. They ask for bids from outside contractors/shops and the union is allowed to turn in a bid also which takes in to account our high labor non skilled people as you call them. Now the Union's bid can be lower or the same and the company will still award that job to the outside contractor and place union workers in the job bank. You somehow blame this on the union and it's workers, I don't get it. Now lets take out that union bid and make the workers at our plant get $10 a hour. What do you think the small shops will have to lower their wages to to be able to compete with the much lower wages and bids. So their wages drop from $15-$20 for a machinist at these small shops to $5-$7. Now this will also have a ripple effect to all the small shops/suppliers which in turn will leave us with the true upper class and the true lower class in society. The union has always wanted to bring the union and non union wages up to help more people not have to live in poverty, where as the company has and is still only worried about more profit on top of the profit they already are making.
Guess when Delphi asked the UAW for wage cuts? This past Thursday they called the UAW and demanded a 67% wage cut plus going from paying 7% of our health care to 27%. They then file chapter 11 on Sat.= didn't give the union rank and file a chance to respond. Delphi will be making the news more in the next few months=ENRON was nothing compared to what Delphi will be hit with, just wait and see.
Tom
4000 people in a job bank while the plant they work for has competitive work outsourced, how is this the workers fault? What I mean by this is mgt. needs to have a construction job/machine built. They ask for bids from outside contractors/shops and the union is allowed to turn in a bid also which takes in to account our high labor non skilled people as you call them. Now the Union's bid can be lower or the same and the company will still award that job to the outside contractor and place union workers in the job bank. You somehow blame this on the union and it's workers, I don't get it. Now lets take out that union bid and make the workers at our plant get $10 a hour. What do you think the small shops will have to lower their wages to to be able to compete with the much lower wages and bids. So their wages drop from $15-$20 for a machinist at these small shops to $5-$7. Now this will also have a ripple effect to all the small shops/suppliers which in turn will leave us with the true upper class and the true lower class in society. The union has always wanted to bring the union and non union wages up to help more people not have to live in poverty, where as the company has and is still only worried about more profit on top of the profit they already are making.
Guess when Delphi asked the UAW for wage cuts? This past Thursday they called the UAW and demanded a 67% wage cut plus going from paying 7% of our health care to 27%. They then file chapter 11 on Sat.= didn't give the union rank and file a chance to respond. Delphi will be making the news more in the next few months=ENRON was nothing compared to what Delphi will be hit with, just wait and see.
Tom
10-09-2005, 02:52 PM
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Here's a direct quote from an article in the Houston Chronicle:
Kevin Tynan, senior auto analyst at Argus Research Corp. in New York, said Delphi management will continue to pressure the union to accept concessions. "If you look at the total compensation package, it's close to $125,000 to $130,000 per year," he said. "If you have UAW workers making $130,000 to assemble oil filters, it's very difficult to turn a profit."
Personally I think there are a LOT of good things and a LOT of bad things about unions in general. The above is one of the VERY BAD things.
I don't really care what ANYONE says, but that kind of pay to do that kind of work is ASININE!!!
HOW could ANYONE sign a contract with ANY union for that kind of pay package for that kind of job? Assembling oil filters for 3 times what a TEACHER makes????? PLEASE!!
The people at GM and Delphi that sign contracts like the above are idiots.
Here's a quote from a USA Today article:
At a time when the average American company requires workers to pay more than $2,000 a year toward family health insurance premiums, the auto industry is among the 4% of employers that offer free family health coverage. Retirees, who outnumber workers by more than 2-to-1 at General Motors and represent significant percentages at the other major U.S. automakers, get the same deal.
More from the same article:
The cost of providing health care adds from $1,100 to $1,500 to the cost of each of the 4.65 million vehicles GM sold last year, according to various calculations.
My feeling is that if you gave somebody something up front, you don't take it away when they retire. In other words, if you're in, you're in. Change it for the new-hires!!
Here's something from the Detroit News:
At major Detroit automakers, the hourly rate for an assembler is $25.57; a janitor starts at $24.98, and tool and die workers start at $30 an hour.
Note the freaking JANITOR pay!!
All the auto makers screaming about financial problems only have to look at the contracts they signed. Personally, I'd never pay that kind of money to have someone empty garbage cans and sweep the floor, but then again I wouldn't be paying someone $50k plus to put the same bolt in the same place, over and over and over again all day, plus free health care, plus bonuses, plus a ridiculous number "holidays" plus.....you get the idea.
UNSKILLED labor......Janitors....making $50k......and that's just STARTING PAY!!
Like I said, unions have both good and bad.....
Kevin Tynan, senior auto analyst at Argus Research Corp. in New York, said Delphi management will continue to pressure the union to accept concessions. "If you look at the total compensation package, it's close to $125,000 to $130,000 per year," he said. "If you have UAW workers making $130,000 to assemble oil filters, it's very difficult to turn a profit."
Personally I think there are a LOT of good things and a LOT of bad things about unions in general. The above is one of the VERY BAD things.
I don't really care what ANYONE says, but that kind of pay to do that kind of work is ASININE!!!
HOW could ANYONE sign a contract with ANY union for that kind of pay package for that kind of job? Assembling oil filters for 3 times what a TEACHER makes????? PLEASE!!
The people at GM and Delphi that sign contracts like the above are idiots.
Here's a quote from a USA Today article:
At a time when the average American company requires workers to pay more than $2,000 a year toward family health insurance premiums, the auto industry is among the 4% of employers that offer free family health coverage. Retirees, who outnumber workers by more than 2-to-1 at General Motors and represent significant percentages at the other major U.S. automakers, get the same deal.
More from the same article:
The cost of providing health care adds from $1,100 to $1,500 to the cost of each of the 4.65 million vehicles GM sold last year, according to various calculations.
My feeling is that if you gave somebody something up front, you don't take it away when they retire. In other words, if you're in, you're in. Change it for the new-hires!!
Here's something from the Detroit News:
At major Detroit automakers, the hourly rate for an assembler is $25.57; a janitor starts at $24.98, and tool and die workers start at $30 an hour.
Note the freaking JANITOR pay!!
All the auto makers screaming about financial problems only have to look at the contracts they signed. Personally, I'd never pay that kind of money to have someone empty garbage cans and sweep the floor, but then again I wouldn't be paying someone $50k plus to put the same bolt in the same place, over and over and over again all day, plus free health care, plus bonuses, plus a ridiculous number "holidays" plus.....you get the idea.
UNSKILLED labor......Janitors....making $50k......and that's just STARTING PAY!!
Like I said, unions have both good and bad.....
10-09-2005, 03:04 PM
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http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/...e_20051008.htm
Friday afternoon, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger told Bloomberg News at a management conference at the University of Toledo that "we're willing to find a way to avoid the bankruptcy route."
"If that's the route Delphi winds up going on, it's not because we haven't been willing to negotiate," Gettelfinger said.
Friday afternoon, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger told Bloomberg News at a management conference at the University of Toledo that "we're willing to find a way to avoid the bankruptcy route."
"If that's the route Delphi winds up going on, it's not because we haven't been willing to negotiate," Gettelfinger said.
10-09-2005, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by nbm00ws6
So if the union steps out of the way and the workers making the parts/cars make 1/3 the pay they do now, how much do you think GM will lower the price of their cars/trucks.?
Originally Posted by nbm00ws6
4000 people in a job bank while the plant they work for has competitive work outsourced, how is this the workers fault?
Originally Posted by nbm00ws6
The union has always wanted to bring the union and non union wages up to help more people not have to live in poverty,
Originally Posted by nbm00ws6
where as the company has and is still only worried about more profit on top of the profit they already are making.
Originally Posted by nbm00ws6
Guess when Delphi asked the UAW for wage cuts?
If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the UAW leadership for not recognizing where they were headed. Look at the steel industry. The went through the exact same thing twenty years ago. The UAW didn't learn a thing from it, and now they are going to take Detroit down the same way. If the union doesn't start giving back to GM soon (before the 2007 contract), GM is going to be next to file, followed by Ford.
The union has had the big three by the ***** for thirty years, and reminded them of that at every contract. Now the situation is reversed, and the union is just squeezing it's own *****. The union needs to start addressing the reality that they could get easily get busted right now. How hard do you think it would be for GM to replace every union worker in Michigan when Michigan has the highest unemployment rate in the country? They opened a Meijers by my house a few months ago, and they had ten applicants for every job making barely over minimum wage with decent benefits. Think it can't happen? Have you talked to any Northwest Airlines mechanics lately? This is what the UAW should be thinking, but they are probably just telling themselves that it won't happen, and unfortunately, they have said it enough that they believe it.
-Geoff
10-09-2005, 04:38 PM
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First off your address and your statemant about not knowing or being related to any current or past GM or Delphi is hard to believe knowing that area as I do.
Car prices have been lowered how much? Lets see, take away the rebates and the 3% annual raise on a vehicle and how much have they been lowered?
News flash=all delphi/GM union workers don't make $25-30 a hour and get free health care. Under the last agreement between GM/Delphi and the UAW there was a two tier wage scale in where a new hire hired under the new agreement starts out at $14 an hour and maxing out at $16-$18 an hour with no paid health care.
If Delphi is losing money why did they only file bankruptcy on their North Americian Operations?
I guess your right the union caused the whole mess. lol Remember these names Delphi/GM/JT Battenberg/Alan Dawes/Setech/ and make room next to the former Enron execs.
Car prices have been lowered how much? Lets see, take away the rebates and the 3% annual raise on a vehicle and how much have they been lowered?
News flash=all delphi/GM union workers don't make $25-30 a hour and get free health care. Under the last agreement between GM/Delphi and the UAW there was a two tier wage scale in where a new hire hired under the new agreement starts out at $14 an hour and maxing out at $16-$18 an hour with no paid health care.
If Delphi is losing money why did they only file bankruptcy on their North Americian Operations?
I guess your right the union caused the whole mess. lol Remember these names Delphi/GM/JT Battenberg/Alan Dawes/Setech/ and make room next to the former Enron execs.
10-09-2005, 05:47 PM
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I never said I didn't know any GM people. Please don't put words in my mouth. You accused me of being a Delphi exec or maybe my dad was. Go back and read what you wrote too next time.
The rebates are the lowered prices. Don't you see that? They can't sell cars without them. Nobody in the US can. Even Toyota is running rebates now. When you run rebates all the time, it is the same as lowering the price. The average vehicle transaction price has dropped for the last four years. Go do some research if you don't believe me. I have seen the charts.
I am not saying there wasn't a scandal at Delphi. They overstated their earnings. Which means that they are basically worse off than they have been saying - which I think supports my point more than yours. And what is your point about filing bankruptcy in the US only? The US is where they are uncompetetive. Why are they uncompetetive in the US? Wages and Health Care. Bankruptcy releases them from contractual obligations so they can implement a re-structuring plan.
That two tier deal was only at Delphi, too. GM workers still get all the stuff that put Delphi into bankruptcy.
-Geoff
The rebates are the lowered prices. Don't you see that? They can't sell cars without them. Nobody in the US can. Even Toyota is running rebates now. When you run rebates all the time, it is the same as lowering the price. The average vehicle transaction price has dropped for the last four years. Go do some research if you don't believe me. I have seen the charts.
I am not saying there wasn't a scandal at Delphi. They overstated their earnings. Which means that they are basically worse off than they have been saying - which I think supports my point more than yours. And what is your point about filing bankruptcy in the US only? The US is where they are uncompetetive. Why are they uncompetetive in the US? Wages and Health Care. Bankruptcy releases them from contractual obligations so they can implement a re-structuring plan.
That two tier deal was only at Delphi, too. GM workers still get all the stuff that put Delphi into bankruptcy.
-Geoff
10-09-2005, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by nbm00ws6
You need to try and raise three kids and provide a home in a decent neighborhood on $10 an hour plus pay for their doctor bills and other needed items and then come back and tell me how much of a reality checK that is.
Tom
Tom
10-09-2005, 07:15 PM
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Thanks for pointing that out, I must have missed that. lol You showed me just how much you have to add to this thread. It wasn't my friends choice to have a handicap child either, but it happend. Now this requires him to have a lot of very high medical bills and forces his wife to be unable to work. But I guess your way of thinking is he should have to pay more or be penalized more due to this? So you can rest tonight he does, the health care
we have is not what it was in the past and he now pays a lot of out of pocket money. Everybody is right, we need to bring down the union. They do nothing for anyone. They should have never asked for that 3% wage increase this past agreement for the union members, and forget that the top execs at GM/Delphi got a 25% wage increase. All this to a company that is broke, but is able to get enough money together to be on a bunch of nascar teams and also sponsor a IRL team plus sponsor a few major races. But again they are broke and the retirees both hourly and salaried should have to pay due to this. lol
And your right Geoff you only said you don't know any Delphi people,you never said anything about GM did you? Sorry for my mistake. Do you or your dad work for GM, seems like you have this hatred towards the UAW for some reason.
we have is not what it was in the past and he now pays a lot of out of pocket money. Everybody is right, we need to bring down the union. They do nothing for anyone. They should have never asked for that 3% wage increase this past agreement for the union members, and forget that the top execs at GM/Delphi got a 25% wage increase. All this to a company that is broke, but is able to get enough money together to be on a bunch of nascar teams and also sponsor a IRL team plus sponsor a few major races. But again they are broke and the retirees both hourly and salaried should have to pay due to this. lol
And your right Geoff you only said you don't know any Delphi people,you never said anything about GM did you? Sorry for my mistake. Do you or your dad work for GM, seems like you have this hatred towards the UAW for some reason.
Originally Posted by AJ Bertelson
It wasn't the companies decision to have those kids
10-09-2005, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by nbm00ws6
Do you or your dad work for GM, seems like you have this hatred towards the UAW for some reason.
-Geoff
10-09-2005, 08:08 PM
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Geoff let me be the first to tell you that I feel I am very lucky to have been able to work this long making this kind of money. I was born and raised on a farm and worked hard when I was younger, I also watched my father and grandfather work themselves into their graves on this farm. So yes I feel very lucky to be able to provide my family with a decent way of life by this I mean being able to be middleclass america and not have to be on welfare or ask for handouts. So now you have heard a UAW member say he feels lucky to have been a GM/Delphi worker even if it's all over tomorrow.
Tom
Tom
Originally Posted by White_Hawk
I resent the prevailing attitude of entitlement that is prevelant in US society. The UAW is the posterchild for this attitude. I see it in kids even more than adults and it makes me sick. I don't resent the UAW, just the fact that most UAW people I talk to act like they are entitled to what they have. I would like to hear just one UAW member tell me how lucky he is to have his job instead of hear them blame their misfortunes on everyone but themselves.
-Geoff
-Geoff
10-09-2005, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by White_Hawk
I resent the prevailing attitude of entitlement that is prevelant in US society. The UAW is the posterchild for this attitude. I see it in kids even more than adults and it makes me sick. I don't resent the UAW, just the fact that most UAW people I talk to act like they are entitled to what they have. I would like to hear just one UAW member tell me how lucky he is to have his job instead of hear them blame their misfortunes on everyone but themselves.
-Geoff
-Geoff
Wish I could find the article now.....
There's one poor guy that got his overtime cut and he has to somehow manage to pay for his vacation home and his boat on a poverty level $87,000.....the poor guy is now over $450,000 in debt.
The article mentions several other people in his unfortunate situation.
I'm in a two-income situation here and if you add BOTH of our salaries together, that poor fellow is still making more. And what exactly does this guy do for $87k?
I'm of thinking that if your income goes down, your expenses should probably follow. But that's just my thinking.
Oh, and yes, I was in a union job for about 6 months - it made me want to vomit. A specific task in this factory required two hands. I watched two people buddy up to do that job so they could munch on nachos and drink sodas for 8 hours.
I watched another guy spend 90% of his day - I mean every single day - do absolutely nothing. When a supervisor would get on his case he filed a greivance and the union rep put on this big show of standing up for the guy - end result = Mr. Slacker kept his cushy job doing.....nothing. And he got paid the SAME wage that the actual workers got.
This is another of the VERY BAD things about unions.
Just my nickel...
10-09-2005, 10:17 PM
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That article was in the Detroit News about a month ago. The guys attorney actually wrote a letter saying that the article was wrong - that he had $269,000 in debt not $469,000 as the article suggested. The attorney also said that a majority of the $269,000 was his mortgage and the two vehicles he had were a 2002 Alero and a 91 Silverado. Of course, it failed to explain how he can't make a $2000 mortgage payment when he is taking home $4000 per month.
-Geoff
-Geoff
