Diagnosis Help!
#1
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Diagnosis Help!
Details. 07 CTS-V, LS2, 142k Miles
At 142k miles I lost a lifter (left side, 2nd from front) and a chunk of it broke off. Long story short, I tore the top end down, put in new LS7 lifters, BTR3 cam, dual valve springs, titanium retainers, new push rods, upgraded trunions and found the chunk of lifter in the oil pan. This problem is NOT top end related.
When I first heard this sound, I thought it was the oil pump. I was spinning the crank with heads off and no chain on the cam yet and heard it. This is why I say it's not top end related. The sound when spinning by hand almost sounds like something solid scraping up against something thin. Which leads us up to my current status.
I have the front subframe dropped, the oil pan off, and the windage tray out (thought crank was scraping the windage tray from setting engine down on pan). Turns out this is not the issue. So now, I have the engine suspended by straps from the strut bar, an open bottom end and am not sure where to go next.
I found a broken rubber gasket in the oil pick up tube. It looks like the one that goes on the crank snout for the harmonic balancer. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the noise or not.
Below videos are car running with the new cam in, and spinning the crank by hand.
I'm open for any suggestions and questions.
At 142k miles I lost a lifter (left side, 2nd from front) and a chunk of it broke off. Long story short, I tore the top end down, put in new LS7 lifters, BTR3 cam, dual valve springs, titanium retainers, new push rods, upgraded trunions and found the chunk of lifter in the oil pan. This problem is NOT top end related.
When I first heard this sound, I thought it was the oil pump. I was spinning the crank with heads off and no chain on the cam yet and heard it. This is why I say it's not top end related. The sound when spinning by hand almost sounds like something solid scraping up against something thin. Which leads us up to my current status.
I have the front subframe dropped, the oil pan off, and the windage tray out (thought crank was scraping the windage tray from setting engine down on pan). Turns out this is not the issue. So now, I have the engine suspended by straps from the strut bar, an open bottom end and am not sure where to go next.
I found a broken rubber gasket in the oil pick up tube. It looks like the one that goes on the crank snout for the harmonic balancer. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the noise or not.
Below videos are car running with the new cam in, and spinning the crank by hand.
I'm open for any suggestions and questions.
#4
I'm not trying to scare you but you Might as well go ahead and pull the motor and do a quick bearing swap on the crank and Pistons since you are this far... Take it to a machine shop as well to make sure the crank bore doesn't need line honed. Talking from my own experience, do not think to yourself "it'll be ok" just in case it is not. $700 vs $2,000 I know where my money would be headed.
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#10
Also, i noticed in the first video some water? or something dripping from the front, seized water pump maybe? I would remove the accessory drive line from the equation and do what Budrecommended with pushing the clutch in. That way you can rule out those two variables
#11
On The Tree
Thread Starter
When I had the car running, I pressed clutch and changed gears and spun tires etc. while the car was in the air and the noise did not change any which makes me think it's not in the trans.
I have a new LS7 clutch setup with about 1500 miles on it or so. The sound didn't exist pre lifter failure and I honestly didn't hear it when the car was running during diagnosis after the lifter had failed.
Oil pressure was good. I think it was 38psi cold.
I have a few more videos I will try to upload over lunch or after work.
The noise Chris (Mercier) is talking about is the noise that worries me and the one that I think is whats causing the actual noise. It seems to happen about every full revolution of the crank.
Anthony, the water dripping is coming out of the radiator in the first video. I broke the top little plastic nipple putting it back in. Water pump is less than a year old. I had car running with accessories off and still had the same noise.
The noise did pick up with rpm increase, and seemed to go away at 3,500 rpm. Not sure if that was the point at which the car got louder than the noise or if it actually disappeared.
I have a new LS7 clutch setup with about 1500 miles on it or so. The sound didn't exist pre lifter failure and I honestly didn't hear it when the car was running during diagnosis after the lifter had failed.
Oil pressure was good. I think it was 38psi cold.
I have a few more videos I will try to upload over lunch or after work.
The noise Chris (Mercier) is talking about is the noise that worries me and the one that I think is whats causing the actual noise. It seems to happen about every full revolution of the crank.
Anthony, the water dripping is coming out of the radiator in the first video. I broke the top little plastic nipple putting it back in. Water pump is less than a year old. I had car running with accessories off and still had the same noise.
The noise did pick up with rpm increase, and seemed to go away at 3,500 rpm. Not sure if that was the point at which the car got louder than the noise or if it actually disappeared.
#12
Well at 3500 rpmthat it when the oil psi really pick ups which could be masking the problem or helping. If it happens to do it every full revolution, then hopefully it is just a bad bearing and not a journal. I would definitely go through the rotating assembly though. My concern would be, when you found the piece of lifter in the oil pan, that some pieces of metal could have gotten picked up.
#13
On The Tree
Thread Starter
I forgot to mention the car is throwing two codes as well. Car isn't tuned yet so didn't think much of them.
P0106 - Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) System Performance
P0340 - Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Circuit
I wonder if the noise heard when running is separate from the noise heard from hand turning the crank. Although, to me it sounds just amplified of the scraping noise.
So I guess my next step is to start pulling bearings and look for wear. Annoying to be doing this while its in the car and after I already had the top end off but that's the joys.
P0106 - Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) System Performance
P0340 - Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Circuit
I wonder if the noise heard when running is separate from the noise heard from hand turning the crank. Although, to me it sounds just amplified of the scraping noise.
So I guess my next step is to start pulling bearings and look for wear. Annoying to be doing this while its in the car and after I already had the top end off but that's the joys.
Last edited by tlorenzen; 02-27-2017 at 05:00 PM.
#14
TECH Addict
iTrader: (15)
I think you should strongly consider asking a mod to move this to the Gen IV Internal Engine Forum. A lot of very knowledgeable and experienced folks over there. Your issue will get much better exposure. No insult intended to the V group here, but there are guys in the other forum that have probably built 20+ of these. More likely one of them has experienced this issue
#15
Time to shine!
Ok! First of all I'd love to welcome you to the swallowed lifter club! My engine decided it wanted to eat my lifter a couple of months ago. You can check my post history and you'll see I only asked one question. I asked if my lifter bore clearance was still good(it wasn't). If you want the full story feel free to ask and I'll write a longer reply but the short story is:
My #6 intake lifter's needle bearings gave up.
I pulled the heads off, dingle-berry honed my lifter bore.
I took off too much metal to get it smooth again.
I smashed it all back together with new lifters/cam anyway and crossed my fingers.
I had 5psi hot oil pressure.
I pulled the motor and discovered every single bearing in the motor was bad.
I sent it to the machine shop with a new crank(old one was too gouged for polishing OR turning).
I had them put all new bearings in it(surprisingly the rods were ok), and I had them sleeve that lifter bore.
I put it back together with new rings, and new bearings, and new gaskets, and new o-rings(basically anything that you can replace, i did replace).
It runs fantastically now.
38 psi cold seems pretty low to me. I bet you'd be in the low teens/high singles hot. You need to pull your motor and break it ALL THE WAY DOWN. Inspect every bearing, and the crank. Check That lifter bore clearance.
While you have it out/apart you should check your motor mounts, get a remote bleeder if you haven't, replace front/rear mains, all that good stuff. Do everything you have to have the motor out to do now that it's out(duh).
If you have any questions at all feel free to hit me up. I JUST did this last month. It's still fresh on my mind. If you're around me I'll even come over and help.
Here's pictures and video for proof.
http://imgur.com/a/m8uOH
My #6 intake lifter's needle bearings gave up.
I pulled the heads off, dingle-berry honed my lifter bore.
I took off too much metal to get it smooth again.
I smashed it all back together with new lifters/cam anyway and crossed my fingers.
I had 5psi hot oil pressure.
I pulled the motor and discovered every single bearing in the motor was bad.
I sent it to the machine shop with a new crank(old one was too gouged for polishing OR turning).
I had them put all new bearings in it(surprisingly the rods were ok), and I had them sleeve that lifter bore.
I put it back together with new rings, and new bearings, and new gaskets, and new o-rings(basically anything that you can replace, i did replace).
It runs fantastically now.
38 psi cold seems pretty low to me. I bet you'd be in the low teens/high singles hot. You need to pull your motor and break it ALL THE WAY DOWN. Inspect every bearing, and the crank. Check That lifter bore clearance.
While you have it out/apart you should check your motor mounts, get a remote bleeder if you haven't, replace front/rear mains, all that good stuff. Do everything you have to have the motor out to do now that it's out(duh).
If you have any questions at all feel free to hit me up. I JUST did this last month. It's still fresh on my mind. If you're around me I'll even come over and help.
Here's pictures and video for proof.
http://imgur.com/a/m8uOH
#17
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Ok! First of all I'd love to welcome you to the swallowed lifter club! My engine decided it wanted to eat my lifter a couple of months ago. You can check my post history and you'll see I only asked one question. I asked if my lifter bore clearance was still good(it wasn't). If you want the full story feel free to ask and I'll write a longer reply but the short story is:
My #6 intake lifter's needle bearings gave up.
I pulled the heads off, dingle-berry honed my lifter bore.
I took off too much metal to get it smooth again.
I smashed it all back together with new lifters/cam anyway and crossed my fingers.
I had 5psi hot oil pressure.
I pulled the motor and discovered every single bearing in the motor was bad.
I sent it to the machine shop with a new crank(old one was too gouged for polishing OR turning).
I had them put all new bearings in it(surprisingly the rods were ok), and I had them sleeve that lifter bore.
I put it back together with new rings, and new bearings, and new gaskets, and new o-rings(basically anything that you can replace, i did replace).
It runs fantastically now.
38 psi cold seems pretty low to me. I bet you'd be in the low teens/high singles hot. You need to pull your motor and break it ALL THE WAY DOWN. Inspect every bearing, and the crank. Check That lifter bore clearance.
While you have it out/apart you should check your motor mounts, get a remote bleeder if you haven't, replace front/rear mains, all that good stuff. Do everything you have to have the motor out to do now that it's out(duh).
If you have any questions at all feel free to hit me up. I JUST did this last month. It's still fresh on my mind. If you're around me I'll even come over and help.
Here's pictures and video for proof.
My #6 intake lifter's needle bearings gave up.
I pulled the heads off, dingle-berry honed my lifter bore.
I took off too much metal to get it smooth again.
I smashed it all back together with new lifters/cam anyway and crossed my fingers.
I had 5psi hot oil pressure.
I pulled the motor and discovered every single bearing in the motor was bad.
I sent it to the machine shop with a new crank(old one was too gouged for polishing OR turning).
I had them put all new bearings in it(surprisingly the rods were ok), and I had them sleeve that lifter bore.
I put it back together with new rings, and new bearings, and new gaskets, and new o-rings(basically anything that you can replace, i did replace).
It runs fantastically now.
38 psi cold seems pretty low to me. I bet you'd be in the low teens/high singles hot. You need to pull your motor and break it ALL THE WAY DOWN. Inspect every bearing, and the crank. Check That lifter bore clearance.
While you have it out/apart you should check your motor mounts, get a remote bleeder if you haven't, replace front/rear mains, all that good stuff. Do everything you have to have the motor out to do now that it's out(duh).
If you have any questions at all feel free to hit me up. I JUST did this last month. It's still fresh on my mind. If you're around me I'll even come over and help.
Here's pictures and video for proof.
Anywho, I think I'll pull the rod bearings how the engine sits to just see if there's any wear. I know the bearings on the cam had wear but not bad enough to warrant concern from what I've read.
Did you leave the trans in the car or pull it with the engine?
Nader, I'll check it out. The noise of me hand cranking the engine has the timing chain cover off but I won't rule out the noise being separate.
I'm already over budget and time that I had planned on spending but that's the "racekar" life I suppose. Should just pull it and do a forged bottom...It's just money right?
#19
#20
07 V, thanks for the insight. I did not see any markings on the lifter bore, but failed to measure it to make sure it was perfect, so I'll keep that thought open. Traditionally on the stock pump my car would run about 32ish psi warm, so 38 seemed pretty close. (car was slightly warm when I checked pressure).
Anywho, I think I'll pull the rod bearings how the engine sits to just see if there's any wear. I know the bearings on the cam had wear but not bad enough to warrant concern from what I've read.
Did you leave the trans in the car or pull it with the engine?
Nader, I'll check it out. The noise of me hand cranking the engine has the timing chain cover off but I won't rule out the noise being separate.
I'm already over budget and time that I had planned on spending but that's the "racekar" life I suppose. Should just pull it and do a forged bottom...It's just money right?
Anywho, I think I'll pull the rod bearings how the engine sits to just see if there's any wear. I know the bearings on the cam had wear but not bad enough to warrant concern from what I've read.
Did you leave the trans in the car or pull it with the engine?
Nader, I'll check it out. The noise of me hand cranking the engine has the timing chain cover off but I won't rule out the noise being separate.
I'm already over budget and time that I had planned on spending but that's the "racekar" life I suppose. Should just pull it and do a forged bottom...It's just money right?