***Carbed FAQ/what you need to know***
09-16-2013, 01:07 AM
#1
***Carbed FAQ/what you need to know*** Been putting this off a while, but for all you carbed LS guys that are trouble shooting, and those that are new to the carbed LS platform and want to know what your getting yourself into, this is the place many will be referred to.
Any other info i miss that is of great importance let me know, im not perfect and will miss several things since my mind will be spinning to get as much of this in as i can think of off the top.
Im new, what do i do????
For starters, you new guys, with little or massive knowledge of the carb, need to know the primary things required to install a carbed setup on a LS.
1: Induction, the intake and carb of your choice. There are a couple large options and a couple high end that depending on budget and application, will fit any goals.
The intake will be 1 of 2, either the cathedral port heads from 97-2004 which are all the same and have a cathedral area at the top of the runner looking at the head and then there are cathedral port all the way to the present.
That is a Vic Jr and a Super Vic from edelbrock, just a couple of many options.
The second will be the square port variety, less selection but they all move tons of air for these big block style ports. The LS3, L92 and LY6 are the main engines/head castings for major power if a 4 inch or larger bore is being used, although there are ported stock and aftermarket cathedrals that will work very well for power.
Edelbrock, GMPP, MAST and some others will be the intake producers that you see us using.
On to the second part of the induction, the carb. Majority of us rock a Holley or holley platform of some variety. Some choose edelbrock and quadrajet with luck and are happy. I will get to the tuning aspect of that later.
Many options from Holley, pro form, demon, quick fuel, ect. Vacuum secondary and mechanical depend on the application as well as CFM rating. Refer to the build sections to grasp what CFM carbs we use on xxx cuic engines and you will see what works.
Expensive and for lots of power and efficiency, there is the single barrel setup from Pro Systems:
Moving massive amounts of air for massive power plants and some that are smaller cubes but spin lots of RPM. Not for the average street car.
IGNITION
The next part of what you need to know if im new to carbs, is the ignition controller.
Edelbrock is NOT the tunable model and many of us frown upon it. Not cost effective for those of us looking to get the most of our carbed mills. The 6010 and 6012 from edelbrock are the same in the fact that they both control the engines factory coils and have the same features.
Heads up for EARLY LS2 design
The Early LS2 had the 24x reluctor with a front mount timing covr cam position sensor:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...sd-6010-a.html
Which one do i need???
Simple, the black crank position sensor(located behind the starter if there is one) is for the part number 6010. The gray sensor if there is one, will be the LS2 type requiring the part number 6012.
My engine came with no sensor!?!?
Take a peek inside where the sensor will mount with a light and you will see either two stacked plates that are together, that is the older 24X requiring the 6010 and a black crank sensor or a single plate with gear looking teeth that is a 58x reluctor indicating the 6012 and a gray sensor:
This picture has both, one on top of the other, the top is the single that is a 58X, the bottom that is mounted on the crank is 2 plates together that is a 24X:
Right side 58X, left 24X:
The connector wont connect!!!
MSD has had this issue before, some times some connectors get switched and some times wires can get crossed:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...wont-plug.html
That is it. Carb, intake and ignition controller.Lets move on...
What harness do i need for the ignition controller???
You do not NEED any harness other than that provided by MSD with two exceptions:
1: The coil harnesses are needed
2: The front crank position sensor extension harness for the 6012.
The 6012 if used without the GM extension harness will need to have the two outside wires swapped. The GM harness corrects this, but is not needed. If you do not use the GM harness that mounts to the timing cover and you do not splice the wires and swap them, your car will run and pop and miss fire.
Do i need to hook up a MAP sensor???
No, many of us do not. I dont but will be soon. The gains are in the fuel economy department at part throttle cruise and is surely a good thing considering as well as the read out can help tuning:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...dtigger-p.html
And for the creative, there are other ways to mount a MAP sensor:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...ap-sensor.html
My car wont start!!!!
Calm down, this is common. i have never had it happen to me with the many builds i have done, but that is my experience. I have fixed others and the main reason that we will sweat you to death over it because it is usually the issue: CHECK YOUR GROUNDS!!!
Grounds grounds grounds. I have seen many just not start, start some times and start but run like garbage.
You will need a solid ground for the ignition. I ground mine to the intake since the connector that comes with it is just long enough to do so. BUT, i also have a ground from the battery negative to the engine. A ground from the battery negative to the chassis. And usually 2 grounds from the engine to the chassis.
Want to ground it to the battery negative? Great! It will be fine.
Another issue for "My engine wont run!!!"
Some use the factory 12 volts from the ignition source that was originally on the car. Guess what? Not all cars are equal. Some only put out a little over half the volts required for the MSD system. This was usually called "points" ignitions back before i was born. Check it with a volt meter. Have a friend watch the lap top(or yourself if you trust them to drive your ride) while driving if it will run, if you see voltage drop, it is usually a bad ground, but if grounds are good, there may be a issue with your factory 12 volt supply. Nothing a relay wont fix.
The MSD software will also throw a bad cam sensor code if the sensor is usually bad. Not common but does happen.
If those two things are fine and you still cannot get fire, and you know its fire and just not getting FUEL, then contact MSD or see if we can help.
Beware, the TBI and other facotry EFI setups merely prime the fuel pump, so if you get fuel and run out, you need a hot wire that stays 12 volts when the car is running.
Another issue, be sure you are not dropping 12v when the key is turned. Most systems kill 12 volts from accessory output when in the starting position on the ignition cylinder. It HAS happened.
There is also the "180* out" of putting coil plug marked 1,3,5,7 to pack 2,4,6,8 and visa versa. Pay attention as there is no designated connector for one bank to the other, but MSD does wire them so you know 1,3,5,7 goes to the driver side coils. 2,4,6,8 to the passenger.
Im sure there is more but thats the main "problems" that happen.
Any other info i miss that is of great importance let me know, im not perfect and will miss several things since my mind will be spinning to get as much of this in as i can think of off the top.
Im new, what do i do????
For starters, you new guys, with little or massive knowledge of the carb, need to know the primary things required to install a carbed setup on a LS.
1: Induction, the intake and carb of your choice. There are a couple large options and a couple high end that depending on budget and application, will fit any goals.
The intake will be 1 of 2, either the cathedral port heads from 97-2004 which are all the same and have a cathedral area at the top of the runner looking at the head and then there are cathedral port all the way to the present.
That is a Vic Jr and a Super Vic from edelbrock, just a couple of many options.
The second will be the square port variety, less selection but they all move tons of air for these big block style ports. The LS3, L92 and LY6 are the main engines/head castings for major power if a 4 inch or larger bore is being used, although there are ported stock and aftermarket cathedrals that will work very well for power.
Edelbrock, GMPP, MAST and some others will be the intake producers that you see us using.
On to the second part of the induction, the carb. Majority of us rock a Holley or holley platform of some variety. Some choose edelbrock and quadrajet with luck and are happy. I will get to the tuning aspect of that later.
Many options from Holley, pro form, demon, quick fuel, ect. Vacuum secondary and mechanical depend on the application as well as CFM rating. Refer to the build sections to grasp what CFM carbs we use on xxx cuic engines and you will see what works.
Expensive and for lots of power and efficiency, there is the single barrel setup from Pro Systems:
Moving massive amounts of air for massive power plants and some that are smaller cubes but spin lots of RPM. Not for the average street car.
IGNITION
The next part of what you need to know if im new to carbs, is the ignition controller.
Edelbrock is NOT the tunable model and many of us frown upon it. Not cost effective for those of us looking to get the most of our carbed mills. The 6010 and 6012 from edelbrock are the same in the fact that they both control the engines factory coils and have the same features.
Heads up for EARLY LS2 design
The Early LS2 had the 24x reluctor with a front mount timing covr cam position sensor:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...sd-6010-a.html
Which one do i need???
Simple, the black crank position sensor(located behind the starter if there is one) is for the part number 6010. The gray sensor if there is one, will be the LS2 type requiring the part number 6012.
My engine came with no sensor!?!?
Take a peek inside where the sensor will mount with a light and you will see either two stacked plates that are together, that is the older 24X requiring the 6010 and a black crank sensor or a single plate with gear looking teeth that is a 58x reluctor indicating the 6012 and a gray sensor:
This picture has both, one on top of the other, the top is the single that is a 58X, the bottom that is mounted on the crank is 2 plates together that is a 24X:
Right side 58X, left 24X:
The connector wont connect!!!
MSD has had this issue before, some times some connectors get switched and some times wires can get crossed:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...wont-plug.html
That is it. Carb, intake and ignition controller.Lets move on...
What harness do i need for the ignition controller???
You do not NEED any harness other than that provided by MSD with two exceptions:
1: The coil harnesses are needed
2: The front crank position sensor extension harness for the 6012.
The 6012 if used without the GM extension harness will need to have the two outside wires swapped. The GM harness corrects this, but is not needed. If you do not use the GM harness that mounts to the timing cover and you do not splice the wires and swap them, your car will run and pop and miss fire.
Do i need to hook up a MAP sensor???
No, many of us do not. I dont but will be soon. The gains are in the fuel economy department at part throttle cruise and is surely a good thing considering as well as the read out can help tuning:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...dtigger-p.html
And for the creative, there are other ways to mount a MAP sensor:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...ap-sensor.html
My car wont start!!!!
Calm down, this is common. i have never had it happen to me with the many builds i have done, but that is my experience. I have fixed others and the main reason that we will sweat you to death over it because it is usually the issue: CHECK YOUR GROUNDS!!!
Grounds grounds grounds. I have seen many just not start, start some times and start but run like garbage.
You will need a solid ground for the ignition. I ground mine to the intake since the connector that comes with it is just long enough to do so. BUT, i also have a ground from the battery negative to the engine. A ground from the battery negative to the chassis. And usually 2 grounds from the engine to the chassis.
Want to ground it to the battery negative? Great! It will be fine.
Another issue for "My engine wont run!!!"
Some use the factory 12 volts from the ignition source that was originally on the car. Guess what? Not all cars are equal. Some only put out a little over half the volts required for the MSD system. This was usually called "points" ignitions back before i was born. Check it with a volt meter. Have a friend watch the lap top(or yourself if you trust them to drive your ride) while driving if it will run, if you see voltage drop, it is usually a bad ground, but if grounds are good, there may be a issue with your factory 12 volt supply. Nothing a relay wont fix.
The MSD software will also throw a bad cam sensor code if the sensor is usually bad. Not common but does happen.
If those two things are fine and you still cannot get fire, and you know its fire and just not getting FUEL, then contact MSD or see if we can help.
Beware, the TBI and other facotry EFI setups merely prime the fuel pump, so if you get fuel and run out, you need a hot wire that stays 12 volts when the car is running.
Another issue, be sure you are not dropping 12v when the key is turned. Most systems kill 12 volts from accessory output when in the starting position on the ignition cylinder. It HAS happened.
There is also the "180* out" of putting coil plug marked 1,3,5,7 to pack 2,4,6,8 and visa versa. Pay attention as there is no designated connector for one bank to the other, but MSD does wire them so you know 1,3,5,7 goes to the driver side coils. 2,4,6,8 to the passenger.
Im sure there is more but thats the main "problems" that happen.
Last edited by ZONES89RS; 09-16-2013 at 04:20 AM.
09-16-2013, 01:17 AM
#2
Single plane or dual plane intake???
With the cathedral port, the dual plane is very good for off idle like performance to 6500 RPM(will go higher easily), with smaller cams, tighter converters and heavier vehicles, it is the intake to have. Will simply produce more low end torque.
Single plane, for engines that live in the upper RPM, where every HP usually makes a difference, nitrous systems exceeding 150 HP, loose converters, deeps gears and lighter rides.
Happy medium? The dual usually takes it.
BE AWARE
The EDELBROCK dual plane is drilled to mount a ignition controller. The hole closest to the flange must be plugged if not mounting the ignition controller in that location! It goes straight into the runner and will cause lean condition if not blocked off.
Annular discharge boosters???
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...discharge.html
What fuel pump do i use????
The options are limitless, i have run Holley red, blue and black, Carter and Aeromotive. All with success at my power levels for now:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...you-using.html
What about running an electronic 4L60/80/whatever???
There are a couple who have used a factory ECM, i cannot remember details, but for me and others, i use the FAST EZ TCU Trans controller. Mike at SK speed can probably beat anyones price on them, but here is the deal:
It has many features, controls line pressure, lock up and can lock up on demand, can set a button or switch to engage the gears instead of manually shifting, fully tunable, user friendly.
Controls:
4L60, 4L65E, 4L70, 4L80E, 4L85 and the TCI 6 speed automatic.
Downside for ME, was that i was unaware it did not come with a way to give it a signal to the controller for Throttle Position Sensor(TPS). My cure was simply get the right sensor, which is the same for a 1987-1991 TBI 4.3 V6, or 5.0 or 5.7 liter truck engine.
I use the sensor and make a bracket to mount it to the carb base plate using the carb base screw. I also use the arm off the throttle body that actually actuates the lever on the TPS sensor. There will be a calibration mode when tuning the controller that sets closed throttle and wide open. you need to make sure it operates in that area and not beyond nor before. It will have a pre load.
Nothing fancy and it was CHEAP.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...carbed-ls.html
With the cathedral port, the dual plane is very good for off idle like performance to 6500 RPM(will go higher easily), with smaller cams, tighter converters and heavier vehicles, it is the intake to have. Will simply produce more low end torque.
Single plane, for engines that live in the upper RPM, where every HP usually makes a difference, nitrous systems exceeding 150 HP, loose converters, deeps gears and lighter rides.
Happy medium? The dual usually takes it.
BE AWARE
The EDELBROCK dual plane is drilled to mount a ignition controller. The hole closest to the flange must be plugged if not mounting the ignition controller in that location! It goes straight into the runner and will cause lean condition if not blocked off.
Annular discharge boosters???
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...discharge.html
What fuel pump do i use????
The options are limitless, i have run Holley red, blue and black, Carter and Aeromotive. All with success at my power levels for now:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...you-using.html
What about running an electronic 4L60/80/whatever???
There are a couple who have used a factory ECM, i cannot remember details, but for me and others, i use the FAST EZ TCU Trans controller. Mike at SK speed can probably beat anyones price on them, but here is the deal:
It has many features, controls line pressure, lock up and can lock up on demand, can set a button or switch to engage the gears instead of manually shifting, fully tunable, user friendly.
Controls:
4L60, 4L65E, 4L70, 4L80E, 4L85 and the TCI 6 speed automatic.
Downside for ME, was that i was unaware it did not come with a way to give it a signal to the controller for Throttle Position Sensor(TPS). My cure was simply get the right sensor, which is the same for a 1987-1991 TBI 4.3 V6, or 5.0 or 5.7 liter truck engine.
I use the sensor and make a bracket to mount it to the carb base plate using the carb base screw. I also use the arm off the throttle body that actually actuates the lever on the TPS sensor. There will be a calibration mode when tuning the controller that sets closed throttle and wide open. you need to make sure it operates in that area and not beyond nor before. It will have a pre load.
Nothing fancy and it was CHEAP.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...carbed-ls.html
Last edited by ZONES89RS; 09-16-2013 at 05:33 AM.
09-16-2013, 01:25 AM
#3
My car falls on its face/bangs out/wont rev any higher at 5xxx RPM!!!
If running a 6010 or 6012, the factory pre set on the ignition is 5500 RPM on the rev limiter. Use a lap top and raise it. The party is just getting started if you have a cam.
Where should i shift???
Using a stock cam and springs, you will be RPM limited to 6000. Nothing wrong with that. Upgrading springs, cam and sometimes pushrods when needed yields gains that i personally turn to 7200 RPM on stock lower ends. Other turn the wick up even higher. Newer 04 up engines have better rods and pistons so the fear is not there as much for many. Remember a 6.0 liter will also usually have a heavier slug and the weight at XXX piston speed is greater than a LS1 with a 3.9 bore piston and even less with a 5.3 liter. The shorter stroke 4.8 can go even higher with less stress on the rotating assembly because less throw on the crank.
Car is running like crap/a turd/not like it was:
Just going to post some helpful issues as i dig through them so that we all can learn from others mistakes:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...0-problem.html
What about them knock sensors in the valley cover???
Remove them, leave them in, seal them, make or buy a cover to make it purty, all up to you:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...ck-sensor.html
If running a 6010 or 6012, the factory pre set on the ignition is 5500 RPM on the rev limiter. Use a lap top and raise it. The party is just getting started if you have a cam.
Where should i shift???
Using a stock cam and springs, you will be RPM limited to 6000. Nothing wrong with that. Upgrading springs, cam and sometimes pushrods when needed yields gains that i personally turn to 7200 RPM on stock lower ends. Other turn the wick up even higher. Newer 04 up engines have better rods and pistons so the fear is not there as much for many. Remember a 6.0 liter will also usually have a heavier slug and the weight at XXX piston speed is greater than a LS1 with a 3.9 bore piston and even less with a 5.3 liter. The shorter stroke 4.8 can go even higher with less stress on the rotating assembly because less throw on the crank.
Car is running like crap/a turd/not like it was:
Just going to post some helpful issues as i dig through them so that we all can learn from others mistakes:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...0-problem.html
What about them knock sensors in the valley cover???
Remove them, leave them in, seal them, make or buy a cover to make it purty, all up to you:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...ck-sensor.html
Last edited by ZONES89RS; 09-16-2013 at 05:05 AM.
09-16-2013, 03:45 AM
#4
Carbermater on mah 4th gen?!?!?!
It happens allot, and it can be done. Different experience for different intake and mounting combinations of course. Cowl cutting, losing wipers, som do others do not:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...-gen-cowl.html
Nitrous oxide and my MSD ignition???
This is one of the many features that this affordable ignition has that we get a Q on every so often. Use the suggested instructions that come with the manufacturer of your choice nitrous system as far as how much timing to pull, and then you can tune from there.
I always suggest a dedicated fuel system that can supply a race gas in with the activation of the nitrous system. Safer and gives you that pillow of comfort knowing you are not going to detonate the engine apart. Fuel tank for the engine, pump for the engine. Then small fuel cell and another fuel pump that activates when the nitrous system is armed
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...sd-6010-a.html
How cheap can i do a LS swap for????(CARBED)
Pretty damn cheap, especially if you hustle and dont mind used parts. This was a swap i did in my TA:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...swap-info.html
It happens allot, and it can be done. Different experience for different intake and mounting combinations of course. Cowl cutting, losing wipers, som do others do not:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...-gen-cowl.html
Nitrous oxide and my MSD ignition???
This is one of the many features that this affordable ignition has that we get a Q on every so often. Use the suggested instructions that come with the manufacturer of your choice nitrous system as far as how much timing to pull, and then you can tune from there.
I always suggest a dedicated fuel system that can supply a race gas in with the activation of the nitrous system. Safer and gives you that pillow of comfort knowing you are not going to detonate the engine apart. Fuel tank for the engine, pump for the engine. Then small fuel cell and another fuel pump that activates when the nitrous system is armed
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...sd-6010-a.html
How cheap can i do a LS swap for????(CARBED)
Pretty damn cheap, especially if you hustle and dont mind used parts. This was a swap i did in my TA:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...swap-info.html
Last edited by ZONES89RS; 09-16-2013 at 05:49 AM.
10-04-2013, 02:10 PM
#5
AED Carb Tuning Tips and Troubleshooting How do I set up my new carb?
How do I get rid of Off Idle Hesitation or Tip In Stumble?
How about at full throttle?
What about other problems?
See this tuning guide from AED.
http://www.aedperformance.com/tuning-tips.html
How do I get rid of Off Idle Hesitation or Tip In Stumble?
How about at full throttle?
What about other problems?
See this tuning guide from AED.
http://www.aedperformance.com/tuning-tips.html
Last edited by Pop N Wood; 10-17-2013 at 07:22 AM.
10-17-2013, 07:22 AM
#6
Great carb set up/tuning article from Chevy Hi Performance How do I tune my carb for maximum drivability and MPG?
WTF is an IFR and why does Speedtigger keep going on and on about them?
THIS article tells you how to use a wideband to dial in a carb for maximum street manners and performance
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...g_gas_mileage/
My carb has press in bleeds and idle feed restrictors. Do I need to buy a more expensive carb?
No, just drill out your existing carb and make your own. Remember to put the blank set screw in the drill chuck and hold the drill bit with the pin vice. Turn the drill slowly.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...de-anyone.html
WTF is an IFR and why does Speedtigger keep going on and on about them?
THIS article tells you how to use a wideband to dial in a carb for maximum street manners and performance
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...g_gas_mileage/
My carb has press in bleeds and idle feed restrictors. Do I need to buy a more expensive carb?
No, just drill out your existing carb and make your own. Remember to put the blank set screw in the drill chuck and hold the drill bit with the pin vice. Turn the drill slowly.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...de-anyone.html
Last edited by Pop N Wood; 10-17-2013 at 07:37 AM.
11-17-2013, 06:33 AM
#7
How do I tune my carb for maximum drivability and MPG?
WTF is an IFR and why does Speedtigger keep going on and on about them?
THIS article tells you how to use a wideband to dial in a carb for maximum street manners and performance
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...g_gas_mileage/
My carb has press in bleeds and idle feed restrictors. Do I need to buy a more expensive carb?
No, just drill out your existing carb and make your own. Remember to put the blank set screw in the drill chuck and hold the drill bit with the pin vice. Turn the drill slowly.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...de-anyone.html
WTF is an IFR and why does Speedtigger keep going on and on about them?
THIS article tells you how to use a wideband to dial in a carb for maximum street manners and performance
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...g_gas_mileage/
My carb has press in bleeds and idle feed restrictors. Do I need to buy a more expensive carb?
No, just drill out your existing carb and make your own. Remember to put the blank set screw in the drill chuck and hold the drill bit with the pin vice. Turn the drill slowly.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...de-anyone.html
Another thing that was odd was that they started playing with the IFR before they found their ideal main jetting for cruise. They did not even talk about setting the main jet for ideal cruise and then drilling the PVCRs to get the WOT back. Not to mention them talking about picking the power valve based on idle vacuum.
Why in the world are they drilling stuff before they even get the main jetting, PVCR and powervalve right? They would just have to go back and change the IFR again after that was done.
To me that article is full of fail. I wonder if there was an actually test car involved at all.
Trending Topics
01-19-2014, 02:38 PM
#8
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rev limiter Great write up.
I only noticed one mistake:
I have the Edelbrock/MSD (it was part of the intake kit). AFAIK there is no rev limiter, I've hit 7 grand on a couple occasions and she was still pulling!
I only noticed one mistake:
I have the Edelbrock/MSD (it was part of the intake kit). AFAIK there is no rev limiter, I've hit 7 grand on a couple occasions and she was still pulling!
02-10-2014, 01:40 PM
#10
