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Is the 4th Gen Camaro Collectible yet???

Old 02-16-2018, 08:43 AM
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Default Is the 4th Gen Camaro Collectible yet???

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Old 02-16-2018, 01:57 PM
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Depending on how you define "collectible" but, in general, at least in terms of the typical/universal definition, not really. The average example is still pretty cheap compared to older versions of comparable condition (e.g. a basic 4th gen Camaro shell isn't worth nearly as much as a basic 1st gen Camaro shell of similar completeness/condition).

However, when speaking of #1 or #2 condition examples of high trim/high desirability/special packages/etc., then the answer is different. In this regard, I agree with the Hagerty article that there is some demand for these examples and that their depreciation is, for the most part, over (though economic swings or changing tastes can still hurt them, just like any other special interest car). But, other than some of those rare and desirable examples mentioned in the article, I would not consider these cars a mainstream collectors item just yet - or maybe ever.

I think a big part of the appeal to these cars, at least at the garden variety V8 level, is that their performance (and potential performance) is still relevant today, and the brand new alternatives in the V8 performance world are considerably more expensive and more complex. So, the "cheap speed" factor keeps them from ever getting TOO cheap (i.e. higher than the prices we see for other 15+ year old used cars which are more "appliance-like") since there is demand for this. But this factor only goes so far and only appeals to so many people, thus it won't support prices of garden variety examples, however nice they may be, getting too close to some of the newer alternatives.

I thought this quote from the article was funny:

Originally Posted by Hagerty
“With the SS, you could stroll into your dealer, check a box, and get a car that was hopped up by SLP right out of the box versus buying the car and then sending it off to a tuning company.”
LOL. "Hopped up". I guess that's true if you were buying an LT4 SS back in '97. But I'd hardly call a 345hp package '02 SS "hopped up" since it's just an air lid and catback away from a Z28 of the same year. Yeah, of course there were suspension and various other options, but still nothing that made the car a stand-out performer as compared to a base Z28.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:51 AM
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I think it will take many more years, if ever, to really put my 2002 SS into a "collectible" category. It becomes a mind set with certain generations as to what becomes collectible to them. OK, I'm 73 years old and grew up during the real Hot Rodding boom starting in the 50's when I lived in Calif. So you can categorize me as a nostalgic enthusiast who enjoys fiddling around with his old car to hopefully keep it near in performance to the new showroom stuff and have something that I feel has character and requires some skill and knowledge to maintain. (brain food and non-conformist) IMO, 2002 was the beginning of the end of old school performance cars. It didn't take long for run of the mill old stodgy showroom stockers to be able to dust the previously feared stoplight terrors. And the newer stuff would handle and stop a whole lot better than previously imagined.
I also feel that the majority of interest in the current showroom rockets comes from older guys who now have the loot to blow on a $100,000 rocket or highly paid entrepreneurs who have never changed a flat tire and want it all in the newest high technology instantly right now, no waiting. Any upcoming generations see my car as a has been. That's OK with me because I have personal interests attached to it. To collect cars today takes a lot of money and space to store. So the 69-71 Z28's are hot now because there are enthusiasts who remember them and at one time owned them. After they are gone I think the value goes down even with all the hype today. Having said that, collectible status usually comes with limited availability. I think my 2002 SS's value will not really appreciate except for inflation. However, I do feel the prices will remain where they are for solid good condition examples. The danger is when the miles creep up and suddenly the built in obsolescence takes over. But I don't care. I own my car to drive it, maintain it and have it take me back to my youthful hot rodding days. A new cookie cutter anything cannot do that for me personally.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Redrokit8 View Post
IMO, 2002 was the beginning of the end of old school performance cars. It didn't take long for run of the mill old stodgy showroom stockers to be able to dust the previously feared stoplight terrors. And the newer stuff would handle and stop a whole lot better than previously imagined....

....and want it all in the newest high technology instantly right now, no waiting. Any upcoming generations see my car as a has been.
This is one main reason why late model performance cars won't ever carry the sort of value for which '60s muscle has become famous. There was no watershed moment of rapidly declining performance immediately after the 4th gens (unlike in the early '70s). New performance cars have kept getting faster, and folks these days generally don't value simplicity (they want every gadget, every comfort, and the newest of everything - and they don't worry about the challenges of keeping these complex cars functioning properly into the future because they will dump them long before this is an issue). So the 4th gens are more of a footnote in performance history than an enduring legend. They will certainly have a niche following for the foreseeable future, but they won't be the next '70 Chevelle or '69 Camaro.

The other main factor is a lack of any special, rare and higher performance engine/drivetrain options from the factory. All the 10s of thousands of '98-'02 Camaro SSs and Z28s came with the same exact engine/trans for a given year. The only ones that are stand-out performers above and beyond the base model V8 are some of those very special models listed in the article (which, other than the LT4 '97 SS, are technically not "factory" creations).
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Old 02-17-2018, 04:30 PM
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I know the price of them haven't dropped that much in the last 5 to 7
Years. Collectible to some, junk to others.
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Old 02-26-2018, 01:02 AM
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My LT1 is still not worth crap. My transmission is worth more than my car. Lol
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Old 03-02-2018, 04:01 PM
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Few people ever predict the future with much accuracy. The 4th gens time will come and the high HP and rare will be valuable cars. Time will tell. I'd say 5-10 years.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by grb View Post
Few people ever predict the future with much accuracy. The 4th gens time will come and the high HP and rare will be valuable cars. Time will tell. I'd say 5-10 years.
"Collectible" and "valuable" are somewhat subjective terms, but I will go ahead and predict that, in 5-10 years, 4th gens still won't be collectible or valuable in the same way that a 1st gen F-body or something like a '70+ Mopar E-body, etc., is today. Granted, inflation certainly happens in the special interest market overall, and there will always be a few stand-out examples that bring big money if the right folks are in the market at the right time, but overall these are not top tier collectible vehicles - and they never will be. This has also proven true for the 3rd gens before them.
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Old 03-02-2018, 06:04 PM
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Something has to take their place or the hobby will die. What is better positioned the 4th gens? Nothing.
We have to wait, unless you have a direct line to God.
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by grb View Post
Something has to take their place or the hobby will die. What is better positioned the 4th gens? Nothing.
We have to wait, unless you have a direct line to God.
It's already slowing down, Baby Boomers are the ones that drove the prices of '55-'72 cars.......Nothing of that magnitude will ever happen again.

The 90's Supra's & Skyline's are better positioned than 4th gens as collector cars, It's the next generation up.......Gen X'ers will have the most disposable income after the Baby Boomers die off & as a whole do not care for American cars.
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by grb View Post
Something has to take their place or the hobby will die. What is better positioned the 4th gens? Nothing.
We have to wait, unless you have a direct line to God.
We don't need old cars that are worth 5 to 10 times their original value just for the hobby to stay alive. The hobby existed before that happened, and it will certainly exist after as well.

The dynamics are simply not the same as what happened during and after the original muscle car era. Cars since the 4th gens have just kept getting faster, leaving 4th gens as a footnote rather than a watershed moment in performance automotive history (in addition to what clinebarger mentioned above).

I don't have to wait another decade to see the writing on the wall. When I sold my 3rd gen in 1999, I knew it wouldn't be a highly valuable collector's item either - and 20 years later it's still not, even though it was a desirable model. Why would 4th gens be any different on average?
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Old 03-08-2018, 12:46 PM
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I don't consider them collectible even though I know how hard it was to find a clean 6-speed a few years ago. Frankly if they were collectible I would feel at least a little bad slapping the amount of aftermarket parts on mine that I have.
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Old 05-14-2018, 04:20 AM
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If you had asked me a few weeks ago before I got my car up and running as it has not run since 2013 I would have said no they have not. However I can not believe how many people come up and comment on the car which I have never gotten before.

I think gauging it against a 1st gen is a mistake as well. They only made that body 3 years 67-69. Plus plus the 1st gens will always be 25-30 years older then 4th gens.

do I think they are collectable yet? No. But they are defiantly starting to gain some momentum in the right direction.
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:05 AM
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They have certainly held their value quite well. Better than most Corvettes.
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:30 AM
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It appears the IROC-Z is making some resurgence in terms of value. I could see the same for the WS6 and SS cars, but I don't ever see them being 40k+ collectible cars like the 1st gen. Plus as RPM says, performance has improved, so there is no stigma with these cars about all this performance left on the table. You can get a 2010 SS for high teens now that will run circles around a stock 4th gen. so there is a ceiling.
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Old 05-15-2018, 08:14 AM
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My Pontiac is a collectible, but it meets all the criteria, I have all the paperwork, and its unmolested, babied taken care of WS6 with low miles.
However a basic Formula or Z28 is not, even with low miles or a good amount of options, they are drivers.

I've received offers of over 20K at car shows.
HotRod mag rated the WS6 LS1 as one of the best looking muscle cars of all time.
However, It would tank in value if I started modding it or racked up the miles to over 100K.



Originally Posted by RPM WS6 View Post
I knew it wouldn't be a highly valuable collector's item either - and 20 years later it's still not, even though it was a desirable model. Why would 4th gens be any different on average?
This is not true at all.
My brother has a 20th Ann 1987 IROC-Z in Black, low miles, all original and that car is worth 10K-15K + all day, and climbing.
A real low mile one, like 5K miles, will sell for 20-30K, I'll post a few from cars.com and autotrader.com when I get home later.

-

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Old 05-15-2018, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Zac_Speed View Post
They have certainly held their value quite well. Better than most Corvettes.
That is somewhat true, mainly for the C3's, and C4's which the value tanked pretty deep on. The other generations seem to hold value pretty well after the initial depreciation which occurs with 95% of vehicles in the first couple of years after release. C5's have still held value quite a bit, and the C6 seem to remain around the same price as they have always been depending on mileage. Then lastly, the C7's did take quite a drop on depreciation compared to other generations but they are now starting to hover around the same price. I am not one to every buy any new car let alone the first model of a new generation where there couple be problems that go unknown. I believe for the most part that 4th gens can hold value as long as the trim/package is a desirable one.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
My Pontiac is a collectible, but it meets all the criteria, I have all the paperwork, and its unmolested, babied taken care of WS6 with low miles.
However a basic Formula or Z28 is not, even with low miles or a good amount of options, they are drivers.

I've received offers of over 20K at car shows.
Perhaps the definition of "collectible" is similarly subjective as the definition of "mint". At 44k miles on public roadways, no car can possibly be mint unless it's undergone a restoration. A #1 condition (mint) vehicle wouldn't have more than a handful of miles on it since assembly or total restoration. My '00 WS6 was mint when I bought it with 3 miles on the odometer. By the time it had about 2600 miles, there was already at least one stone chip. My current 18k mile '98 is a consistent 97-98 point car that is show prepped, highly detailed and documented, won multiple awards, but it's a strong #2 car at best. Yours sounds like a very nice car but, at 44k miles/19 years old, it too is still just a driver.

Someone who would offer $20k+ for a 44k mile '99 WS6 with a couple minor bolt-ons is either not serious, not knowledgeable about the general market value of these cars, or has enough money not to care. But it's not indicative of the market in general, as you can find plenty of completed Ebay auctions of similar examples for under (sometimes well under) $20k. You can even find listing prices lower than that (on this site and others). Here's an '02 M6 WS6 with some relatively minor/reversible bolt-ons and only 60k miles for thousands less at just $14k:

https://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/c...584621225.html

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
This is not true at all.
Yes, what I posted is in fact completely true. My '89 Formula 350 hardtop was not then, and is not now, a highly valuable collectors item. Clean and rust free as it was, it did still have over 100k miles. 3rd gens don't carry [relatively] high value unless we're speaking of the best and brightest examples (which means the most desirable trim levels and options, and the lowest mileage/best condition generally available). "Collectible/high value" doesn't apply universally to 3rd gens like it might to some older muscle-type platforms. For example, last year I watched a beautiful 10k mile '82 Z28 sit for sale at $9000 for months and months. No idea what it sold for, but there clearly wasn't much market if it couldn't sell easily for under $10k.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
My brother has a 20th Ann 1987 IROC-Z in Black, low miles, all original and that car is worth 10K-15K + all day, and climbing.
A real low mile one, like 5K miles, will sell for 20-30K, I'll post a few from cars.com and autotrader.com when I get home later.
Again, I wasn't speaking of the best and brightest when I made that statement. It was in referecne to 3rd gens in general. Take away the most desirable engine, add some mileage, and even a clean V8 one can be had at a modest price like this:

https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/c...558191639.html

And keep in mind, listing prices don't necessarily equal sale prices. There are plenty of dreamers with ads containing sky high prices, doesn't mean those cars will sell for those amounts (or sell at all). Here's a great example from the 4th gen world:

https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/c...573811469.html

This car has been relisted many times over the last year or two, same seller, same pictures. You can list a car at any price you want, but this doesn't mean that suddenly these sort of cars are worth this kind of money. Nobody is buying at that price.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:53 PM
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one more that will never sell....

https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/c...582928721.html
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
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I think we are both making good points, in different ways.

There are people asking 17-22K for 10,000 mile to 40,000 mile ORIGINAL taken care of WS6's...and they sell. If they are taken care of, no winters, always garaged, pampered cars, and a real WS6, they are worth that.
A driven one with 80K is only worth 8-15K, that's obvious. Mods make them plummet in value, as do multiple owners and lack of paperwork.
I have the window sticker for my WS6 which is 30,230.00, and they are becoming more and more rare every year.

As far as your 3rd gen your right, that thing is nothing special, but with 100K miles it has no value, doesn't matter if its original or a special edition. A clean GTA or IROC-Z with under 20-50K miles in great shape is worth some coin. With 5K miles to 20K miles they are worth serious coin, and they sell.


This car is worth 22 all day, and will sell near that.
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...1808/overview/

This car is worth 20k all day, and will sell near that.
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...3180/overview/

This is a non-WS6 driver with 78000 miles, 10K is about right:
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...4317/overview/

This is a 3rd Gen Formula with 24K miles, and it will sell near this:
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...5957/overview/


Mine with 44K ain't worth 25K, for sure.
But it's no 10K car either, I'd want near 20K due to the fact that its black on black, loaded and nearly mint, and 44k miles for a 99 is frickin harder and harder to come by. I've turned down 17K, but I am not interested in selling. That's what similar cars sell for. Not sit for years on craigslist, they sell. This aint some Formula with low miles.
I'll get some pics of both my cars soon.

This guy is asking 15K for an Auto with 88K.
https://syracuse.craigslist.org/cto/...578271524.html

And this guy is asking 25K for a real nice WS6.
https://albany.craigslist.org/cto/d/...557909617.html

Those last 2 craigslist ones might be dreaming a little, but not much.
The cars.com links are right on.

Last edited by Z28tek; 05-15-2018 at 03:25 PM.
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