cruisin'73

iTrader: (8)

Alright I am at the begining stages of my budget LS swap into my Nova and I need some help to determine which of the little devils (Ya, no angels here) on my shoulder is going to win the EFI versus carb debate! Of course if cost was not an issue, the Nova would be EFI in a heartbeat.

Here is the point I am at on my swap: the old engine and gen I parts are out and sold so no turning back! With that small mount of cash in hand I have started looking at the local auto yards comparing prices and quality.

Here is my build thread: https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...dget-swap.html

To this point all my planning has been based around a carb build, but that damn EFI devil will not quit whispering in my ear! So I am asking you guys for your a input.

If I was to go EFI I would modify the original truck harness myself. What kind of tool and material cost would be involved with this?

ECU tuning, I have read posts it can be done for as little as $50, but it seems like the standard for a GOOD tune is more like $150 to $400.

Can someone point me in the right direction to learn more about this corvette filter/regulator set up? What kind of cost would be fair to assume for an EFI fuel system? $300?

Can a stock truck ECU be programmed to control cooling fan operation duties? That would save a little bank roll.

I have put together a cost estimate for a carburetor based build of approximately $1600. Much of that cost is inherient to the LS swap itself (like headers and mounts etc.) If I could go EFI for another $200 to $400 I would go that route. So please share your ideas, experience and cost estimates!

BTW, I have read MeanYellow Budget swap guide. Now I would value YOUR input in the Carb Vs. EFI budget build debate. Thanks guys

rotor vs. piston

iTrader: (3)

My tool cost for my harness was ~$19 for a label maker to easily identify the connections. Took about a week of after work time in the garage to get everything labeled and the engine running on the first crank. The shop that sold my engine package took out everything I didn't need from the computer and haven't found a reason to tune it considering I haven't made any changes to the engine.

Parts cost was ~$65 for a bosch fuel pump for a toyota supra turbo. ~$10 for a way to mount it in my gas tank (originally carbed engine), hindsight I'd go external pump and save the trouble. Maybe another $20 for new SS fuel line and another ~$25 for the quick disconnect fittings.

If your engine package already came w/ a harness and everything like most do, money wise you'd spend more just on a cheap carb than you will getting a basic FI set up in your car. Not to mention if you go carb you'll still need a computer (more money) do fire the coils.

cruisin'73

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for the info on the harness mods. I spent a good chunk of yesterday researching EFI conversions, and I came to the decision to maintain my original carb based build plan. Looking at the costs it seems that carb and EFI can be accomplished on comparable budgets. The most influencial lesson that was reinforced with each build I researched was that an EFI conversion is more time consuming due to the added number of tasks. Things that separately are not huge, but when combined add considerable time and effort over a carb based conversion. My timeline is to have the car up and running by late spring/early summer and I just can not see meeting my aggresive build schedule with all that added work.

Now, like any gearhead out there knows, a project is never REALLLYYY done. My evil octane monkies are already planning details of an EFI and 4L60/80E swap for the Nova. But putting the EFI build off til a future date will allow me time to research, plan and peice together my perfect swap while still terrorizing the streets and burning dinosaurs with my "regulated fuel leak" carb!

Thanks again Rotor for the input, I think I might still get that labeler!!

74novacustom

Well i already Gave you my thoughts on StevesNovaSite. But i will go More in Depth Here.

For a carb.
Carb $300. to $450.
MSD Controller with EdelBrock intake $669.00
Air Filter 50.00
Fuel System ( Pump, Filter, REgulator, Hoses) 200.00 to 400.00

Carb Est Total. $1219 to $1569

For EFI.
Throttle Body Included $0.00
Intake included $0.00
Stock Fuel Rail Included $0.00
Cold air intake 50.00 to 100.00 Custom
Fuel system ( Pump, corvette Filter/reg, Hoses) 200.00 to 400.00
Modded harness or new one from 400 to 450.
Mail order Tune for your setup 100.00 to 300.00

EFI Est TOtal $750 to $1250.
if you mod your own harness subtract 400. to 450.
if you can get a tune cheaper then subtract that.

You really only need to purchase a fuel system and a cold air intake.

I was in your shoes a year ago. Its cheaper going efi if your engine purchase comes complete.


It costs a little more for someone to mod your harness for the Electric fans and AC. But it can be Done. But if saving money is your thing then just run them off your ignition and some Heavy Duty relays close to the fans until you can buy something to control them later. My fans are that way now and even in AZ My car has never gotten above 185. But now its getting cold so i unplugged one of the fans and it still wont go above 170 now.

I wish now that i would have gotten the fan controller with my harness.

If done Correctly you can do the EFI For under 500.00
But the Harness headache is worth the money to me to give the headache to a proffesional shop... It will cut down on gremlins later.

But do whatever you want, we will support you either way and help ya anyway we can.

cruisin'73

iTrader: (8)

74' You are killing me!

But you bring up some good points on the finacial side. One of the big deciding factors in the cost equation is is the cost of the donor engine and all its dressings, and I need to educate myself better on what is locally available. I will make that my homework for the weekend. Hopefully must places will be open despite the holiday weekend. How about some more advice:

Using Hookemdevil's fuel system design as a starting point. I think this system could be done for ~$300 with the corevette FPR. But can it use the stock fuel tank with the top draw port? Otherwords you have to sump the tank, adding cost. I know is it harder on the pump, but is it acceptable?

Pedal input. How difficult is it to hook up a DBW pedal if neccesary?

How does the donor harness integrate into the stock vehicle harness (if you can call 10 wires a harness!) Do you have to add a fuse panel of some sort? Re-using the stock truck fuse block system seems pretty overkill, that thing is HUGE!

Thanks for the input 74'

garys 68

iTrader: (1)

Pretty much everything you'll need to mod your harness, hook it to your existing wiring, and DBW info.
http://www.lt1swap.com/index.htm

74novacustom

Staying external will work. and saves a few coin. But hookemdevils fuel system is about to go intank. But most Fuel pumps like to be gravity fed, so you will need no mount the fuel pump fairly low. I know some people have had to use compressed air into the gas tank to get the fuel pump fed but then once it worked it kept working unless it ran out of gas.

Places that mod the harness use a small fuse panel.
There isnt much integration that needs to be done from the Doner to your Nova.

from The Doner car you will have these wires to connect to your car.

Grounds
Power from alt post to power computer and accy. and Fuse panel.
Ign signal.
Wire For Tach
Wire For speedo
Wire for reverse lights
wire to brake pedal for torque converter lockup.
4 wires for Cruise Control if using DBW.
Ground wire to a Light bulb that has power all the time for CES.


hmmmmm
i think thats about it.

OOOPS Nope
the most important one is the fuel pump wire.....




Also The DBW is a cake walk, make sure you get the TAC Module and Pedal or throw your Budget swap out the window.

Ive got pics of all this in my car and working. Hit me up.

cruisin'73

iTrader: (8)

Alright last weekend I hit up ALL of the local salvage/junk/U-pull yards and have a pretty good understanding of what is locally available and pricing. And it is pretty similar to everything I found on LS1Tech so far. For a decent 5.3L long block with intake, starter and accesories you are looking at the $400 price range. Add a PCM and harness and and the package is ~$600 and add another ~$600 for the accompanying trans. So ~$1200 for everything. Not to shabby. So looking at those prices, and considering the expenses associated with both EFI and Carb, price is pretty close to a wash.

But I have to consider my timeline. I have a completeion date set at the end of May to have the car functional and on the road, a few loose ends are acceptable. I do not feel comfortable that I could meet this timeline with the extra complexity and tasks involved with and EFI conversion. And I do not want to miss 1 second of cruisable weather!! I am also taking into consideration that I want to be able to focus on the engine and swap into the car itself, and not all everything I would have to learn for an EFI swap. Plus I have several other chassis related tasks to complete before that May deadline like subframe connectors. Taking care of several rust spots in the floorboards. Rebuilding the front suspension. MAYBE a front dics brake upgrade. Minor body and interior work....and the list goes on.

Don't worry I already know that an EFI 5.3 and 4L60E will find its way into the Nova in a few years. Just not this year.

So thanks to everyone who threw in their 2 cents! check the progress of my build every now and again!

bczee

iTrader: (12)

One thing you have not stated (or did I miss it). .was the goals?.. HP Output, what is the usage (daily, weekend, strip, road/auto-x). How many mile are you going to be driving on a daily, weekly or yearly ?

If daily and long cruise, cold startup, better MPG, drivalbility, tuneablity, etc ? EFI would be the clear winner.. I love the way it startup 1st time every time with EFI.

if WOT and drag racing. it is pretty much a wash, could go either way depending on who is doing the tuning.

also. Cam selection, if leaving the stock one in or aftermarket.. selecting the right cam and intake should be matched for better all round performance and drivablity.

on my chevelle, with a LS1 w/LS6 intake, header and 6 speed, I get 25 mpg on the highway with 4.11 gears.. try and match that with a carb...!

Anyway.. its your choice in the end..

Just adding My 2 cents..

BC

cruisin'73

iTrader: (8)

Really excellent point Bczee.

I am looking to build a nice cruiser. I might make it to the strip once or twice a summer. DD duty from late spring to early fall. Maybe a couple 300 mile road trips a summer. And while the mileage, cold weather stability and other EFI benefits would be great, it is not worth the extra time investment for me at this time. But as the Nova will always be my cruiser rig, an EFI and modern trans really would be the best solution, and will at some point in the future replace this carb motor.

WOW, do you really get 25MPG with 4.11 in a heavy Chevelle? Thats only 5MPG less then my girlfreinds Mazda?!

garys 68

iTrader: (1)

If you're going to buy a 5.3 with 4L60 and go carbed, you'll need a stand alone trans controller $$$$$$$

cruisin'73

iTrader: (8)

Gary, No I plan on running a th350 with a shift kit and a stall convertor somewhere around the 3K mark. It is a shame that the new genration of trannys require a TCM!

Black&White

If I remember right my dad's '70 Chevelle with a bbc (imagine that weight disadvantage) weighed very similar to my '02 Camaro. His only disadvantages are the 4.11's and aerodynamics, with a better gear he'd be really cruisin far on a tank. That being said I've heard (have not seen for myself) that a properly tuned carb can run very similar mpg's as EFI. But the carb has to be tuned for the weather/elevation, unlike with EFI where the car will automatically adjust.
OP, also remember that there may be some added costs hooking up your old trans to a newer motor (either a different converter or an adapter for the flywheel). I've heard there is a cheap way to do this but it is 1 more thing to be sure of before you pull the trigger

1987earthquake

iTrader: (9)

Daily driving... go efi. You could have it set in and runing in less than a week only working in the evenings.. Your goal is running by May so you could start in April and be done. I did efi on my 87 camaro with a 5.3 and truck harness and had it going in 2 days. That's setting the motor and all. Since then I've traded that car for an 81 malibu and 94 trans am. The malibu will get the treatment of a lsx with carb only because of it being a race car and I already have a good carb and fuel system in place for it. The 94 trans am will recieve efi tho. To each his own but I would always go efi unless it is strictly a race car.

salemetro

iTrader: (5)

^^^ +1

The wiring would take you 2 evenings to sort out if you take your time......4 evenings if you REALLY want to go slow...being that you've never wired one before. It really is no big deal.....especially on older cars like yours that don't have to deal with serial-data gauge clusters or drive-by-wire.

Just do it

cruisin'73

iTrader: (8)

Eathquake, Sale thanks for the input I am sure it is not very difficult to get the EFI operational and that a guy could do it in a few nights, and I will be going to an EFI system in the future. But for now I have other portions of the car that need TLC. The point I am coming to is that this carb system will only be temporary while I get the rest of the car to the point I want it at before I focus on an EFI conversion. Plus once I have the carb engine tranny combo running well I will perform a complete pull out swap to an EFI engine and tranny combo. When I do the EFI system I do not want to half *** it.

Plus, for being the son of an electrician, I have near 0 electronics skills! Being red green color blind probably doesn't help either!

chuckd71

iTrader: (23)

If you are worried about money it will be cheaper long-term to just do what you want the first time. Otherwise you are buying things twice, getting it to work twice and wasting time twice. You aren't really saving much if you buy carb stuff now then efi stuff later, especially since your motor comes with efi stuff to begin with. If you know you are going to end up efi then you are spending efi money either way; if you go carb first you have to add that cost to the efi cost. It's throwing away dollars to save dimes.

Pop N Wood

iTrader: (1)

I'm not really sure how people think EFI will be easier or quicker to set up than a carb. Carbs set ups are pretty simple. The MSD box is absolutely plug and play. Hook the keyed connectors to the proper spots and it will run. Carbs themselves are pretty easy to 'get to run'. Depending on your skills they can be a good bit more work to 'get to run right'. But since it seems like most EFI guys pay for a tune there is no reason that can't be an option for a carb.

The fuel system cost is a wash. You pretty much have to do the same steps and have the same overall components either way. The one big exception is EFI needs some type of sump on the tank so you don't lean out when at WOT.

Gas mileage benefits of EFI over a carb are not a reality. EFI people want to think they have an advantage there, but look in the carb'd section of this site. Lots of carb'd guys posting good MPG numbers. More a function of gearing, cam and weight than the fuel metering method. EFI does outperform carbs when cold. No question there. Your wife will perfer driving the car if it is EFI.

As for cost, I think you are have the right answer. It really depends on how much EFI stuff came with your motor. If you have all the EFI stuff, then with the exception of the tune it is hard to get by cheaper. If yoiu buy used stuff then deals can be had on old carbs. But just remember, EFI is more complicated and some of the parts can be expensive. It only takes a few component failures to tip the cost equation the other way.

Last, if you upgrade and haven't bothered to buy EFI tuning software and learned how to use it, then the carb will transfer to the new motor much more cheaply than the EFI. Jets are way cheaper than new injectors.

I am running a carb because it was clearly the cheaper option for the crate motor route I chose. If I had gotten a pull out motor with a full EFI set up then I probably would have gone that way.

No real wrong answer here.

cruisin'73

iTrader: (8)

Pop N' Wood. Glad to hear from the carb'd side. Yes, and finding a used intake and rebuilding a 750 is the route I plan to take. It seems like most pull outs come with an intake, and you are looking about $100 to $200 for an PCM and harness. So while it is hard to compare apples to oranges, cost can be done pretty close to one another. Really, mileage is not a great concern for me. If it was, I would have traded my ********* in for a car with a flower holder in the dash a long time ago. Point and case, my daily driver is a Yukon XL...

I am already starting to feel the pinch of time getting tighter to meet my May deadline and I have a hard time believing that anything could be easier then bolting on am intake, dropping a carb and plugging in an MSD box.

PLUS going this route will allow me to have my Nova up and running WHILE I build my EFI set up just how I want it. And in the end, road time is the biggest goal here right?