57 belair 4 door --> 5.3L/4L60E build thread
05-31-2012, 08:56 AM
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57 belair 4 door --> 5.3L/4L60E build thread So hopefully, this will be my documentation/thread about putting a 5.3L/4L60E in my 57 belair 4 door.
About the car:
57 belair 4 door, manufactured in Atlanta and as far as I know, always a GA car.
Purchased into my family in ~1983-1987 by my uncle in an unrestored state.
Restored to current condition by ~1990, problems with the car overheating etc. made my uncle let the car sit up and deteriorate.
Given to me May 2000 for graduation, with hope that I would maintain the car.
Car was showed in car shows for 2-3 years until problems that plagued the car exceeded my income, then it began to sit and deteriorate.
Changed jobs, moved twice, car came with me but sat up.
Never tried to resolve the issues because I was told the car was restored stock with matching engine/transmission, and I didn't want to tamper with that.
This weekend nearly got into an accident in it because of the problems it has, and found out a few hours later when on the phone about said problems that the car does NOT have a factory engine, or period correct engine.
This engine bears the casting info of F0303D. Flint michigan, march 3rd, D=1958-1964 283 V8/2bbl/powerglide.
Note the air cleaner is a 60s style air cleaner and not the "oil bath" that was common.
Problems with the car:
*Overheats on days when temps are above 90
*A/C as pictured causes the car to idle very low and stall at inopportune times.
*narrow repro tires are dryrotting and expensive
*narrow surface GREATLY diminishes braking and handling (thus the almost accident.)
*factory 4 wheel drum brakes have SEVERE fade in temperatures above 80 (thus the almost accident)
*rear main seal on the engine is leaking very badly.
*powerglide vomits fluid after being used
*rear diff leaks
There's a myriad of other problems, but I won't go into them. suffice to say, now is the time to tackle them all in one swoop.
My goal for this car is to have a casual cruise-in car, not a show stopper or a drag strip machine. My uncle's goals for the car was one that you could enjoy, that you could drive to car shows and cruise-ins, show off, and have fun with other car people. He did NOT intent for this car to be hidden away and left to rot in a garage like it has since the early 90s.
My goals at the beginning of this project:
*4 wheel disc brake conversion
*wider rims with modifications, allowing me to run the factory hubcaps
*wider wide whitewall RADIAL tires
*maintain a/c in the car, power sterring, and power brakes
*keep stock speedometer and gauge cluster look, give no indication in interior or exterior appearance that the powertrain is not stock.
*Gen III 5.3L/4L60E powertrain, no/minor modifications (power is not important) with truck accessories (p/s, alt) intake and aftermarket high mount sandin R134 compressor under factory hood
*NO CUTTING on the car, car must be able to return to stock at a later date
*factory rearend (serviced) and suspension.
The starting point is a 2001 GMC Sierra 5.3L pull-out from a salvage yard that is local.
The yard told me the truck "drove in" after being purchased wrecked at auction. Motor has appx. 179k miles on it. A rebuild is not out of the question, but no formal plans at this time as more investigation is needed.
The engine, wire harnesses, complete acessory brackets, water pump, and ECU were $660 out the door.
About the car:
57 belair 4 door, manufactured in Atlanta and as far as I know, always a GA car.
Purchased into my family in ~1983-1987 by my uncle in an unrestored state.
Restored to current condition by ~1990, problems with the car overheating etc. made my uncle let the car sit up and deteriorate.
Given to me May 2000 for graduation, with hope that I would maintain the car.
Car was showed in car shows for 2-3 years until problems that plagued the car exceeded my income, then it began to sit and deteriorate.
Changed jobs, moved twice, car came with me but sat up.
Never tried to resolve the issues because I was told the car was restored stock with matching engine/transmission, and I didn't want to tamper with that.
This weekend nearly got into an accident in it because of the problems it has, and found out a few hours later when on the phone about said problems that the car does NOT have a factory engine, or period correct engine.
This engine bears the casting info of F0303D. Flint michigan, march 3rd, D=1958-1964 283 V8/2bbl/powerglide.
Note the air cleaner is a 60s style air cleaner and not the "oil bath" that was common.
Problems with the car:
*Overheats on days when temps are above 90
*A/C as pictured causes the car to idle very low and stall at inopportune times.
*narrow repro tires are dryrotting and expensive
*narrow surface GREATLY diminishes braking and handling (thus the almost accident.)
*factory 4 wheel drum brakes have SEVERE fade in temperatures above 80 (thus the almost accident)
*rear main seal on the engine is leaking very badly.
*powerglide vomits fluid after being used
*rear diff leaks
There's a myriad of other problems, but I won't go into them. suffice to say, now is the time to tackle them all in one swoop.
My goal for this car is to have a casual cruise-in car, not a show stopper or a drag strip machine. My uncle's goals for the car was one that you could enjoy, that you could drive to car shows and cruise-ins, show off, and have fun with other car people. He did NOT intent for this car to be hidden away and left to rot in a garage like it has since the early 90s.
My goals at the beginning of this project:
*4 wheel disc brake conversion
*wider rims with modifications, allowing me to run the factory hubcaps
*wider wide whitewall RADIAL tires
*maintain a/c in the car, power sterring, and power brakes
*keep stock speedometer and gauge cluster look, give no indication in interior or exterior appearance that the powertrain is not stock.
*Gen III 5.3L/4L60E powertrain, no/minor modifications (power is not important) with truck accessories (p/s, alt) intake and aftermarket high mount sandin R134 compressor under factory hood
*NO CUTTING on the car, car must be able to return to stock at a later date
*factory rearend (serviced) and suspension.
The starting point is a 2001 GMC Sierra 5.3L pull-out from a salvage yard that is local.
The yard told me the truck "drove in" after being purchased wrecked at auction. Motor has appx. 179k miles on it. A rebuild is not out of the question, but no formal plans at this time as more investigation is needed.
The engine, wire harnesses, complete acessory brackets, water pump, and ECU were $660 out the door.
05-31-2012, 08:59 AM
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My first step is planning. No wires are cut, no engines removed, no changes to the car until I'm comfortable I have what I need.
My first issue is fuel systems.
The fuel tank in the car at this time is ORIGINAL. The car will not start if the fuel gauge is below 1/4 tank, so there is undoutedly a problem.
My plan for the engine as of this moment is to source a later modem 5.3L fuel rail that only has 1 fuel line, then run the "corvette filter" near the fuel tank.
I would LIKE to run an in-tank pump, but I am not against an in-line as long as there are no complications. I would use a walboro or something, I'm not going to skimp on quality and go with autozone brand for this.
I can buy several different fuel tanks for this car, the cheapest is a factory replacement. I would like to keep it that way, but I have concern that if I managed to run an in-line pump or even modify a factory tank to use an in-tank pump, there may not be a sump in the tank, and the car may "run out of gas" on inclines.
If anyone has any information on this I would be appreciative. I will be researching it on my own as well.
My first issue is fuel systems.
The fuel tank in the car at this time is ORIGINAL. The car will not start if the fuel gauge is below 1/4 tank, so there is undoutedly a problem.
My plan for the engine as of this moment is to source a later modem 5.3L fuel rail that only has 1 fuel line, then run the "corvette filter" near the fuel tank.
I would LIKE to run an in-tank pump, but I am not against an in-line as long as there are no complications. I would use a walboro or something, I'm not going to skimp on quality and go with autozone brand for this.
I can buy several different fuel tanks for this car, the cheapest is a factory replacement. I would like to keep it that way, but I have concern that if I managed to run an in-line pump or even modify a factory tank to use an in-tank pump, there may not be a sump in the tank, and the car may "run out of gas" on inclines.
If anyone has any information on this I would be appreciative. I will be researching it on my own as well.
05-31-2012, 09:24 AM
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For your tank needs.
http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...rod/prd269.htm
I was going to go with one of their tanks in my 1953 Chevy. But I'm just going to carb my 5.3.
http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...rod/prd269.htm
I was going to go with one of their tanks in my 1953 Chevy. But I'm just going to carb my 5.3.
05-31-2012, 09:43 AM
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Interesting! That's exactly what I was looking for really, basically a stock looking tank with the proper sump/tray inside for fuel injection.
Cheaper than Danchuck too.
It says you have to "cut a hole" in the floor to clear the EFI fuel pump unit. Any reason I can't just mount the tank 1-2" lower on the car? I could probably shim the bolts.
Called them. Yes, I can shim it down an inch.
I have some mastic at home. I could use that in either a really thick layer or use a block of tube steel or aluminum to make a shim.
Cheaper than Danchuck too.
It says you have to "cut a hole" in the floor to clear the EFI fuel pump unit. Any reason I can't just mount the tank 1-2" lower on the car? I could probably shim the bolts.
Called them. Yes, I can shim it down an inch.
I have some mastic at home. I could use that in either a really thick layer or use a block of tube steel or aluminum to make a shim.
Last edited by DarkFox118; 05-31-2012 at 10:07 AM.
05-31-2012, 10:29 AM
#5
No need to lower the tank. Many that are using the TanksINC intank setup will also modify the tank by cutting a section out and weld in a tray that will lower the mounting surface about 3/4" to 1" lower (like a sq baking pan or tray with one end cut flush with the bottom of the pan) and this would keep the senders hardware/fitting/tubes from hitting the truck floor. If you research here on other build, you will find many have done this.
The body looks pretty solid, how are the floor pans and lower section of the body ? any rust going on there ?. Should be a good Daily Driver once you get the swap completed. I love them 57's..
Here is my old 57 that was my daily driver back in the HS/college days (60/70's).
BC
The body looks pretty solid, how are the floor pans and lower section of the body ? any rust going on there ?. Should be a good Daily Driver once you get the swap completed. I love them 57's..
Here is my old 57 that was my daily driver back in the HS/college days (60/70's).
BC
05-31-2012, 11:04 AM
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The car was "restored" to it's current condition about 20 years ago. My uncle has never really been a mechanic, so his knowledge was limited. Luckily, this car was VERY solid. the only panels that had to be replaced were the trunk lid, driver's rear door, and the floor pan in the rear passenger footwells.
You can see the holes he cut under the floorboards here:
The brake lines seem to be original in the back half of the car, as well as the fuel lines and sending unit.
also, I'm no welder, but I did consider finding a metal working shop to do exactly what you said, buy the tank as is, have them cut out a larger hole and recess it. The folks at tanks inc said in a few years they will be making them all like this anyway, but I don't think I'm going to hang around for the retooling on their part, unless it takes me that long to get to this part of the build.
You can see the holes he cut under the floorboards here:
The brake lines seem to be original in the back half of the car, as well as the fuel lines and sending unit.
also, I'm no welder, but I did consider finding a metal working shop to do exactly what you said, buy the tank as is, have them cut out a larger hole and recess it. The folks at tanks inc said in a few years they will be making them all like this anyway, but I don't think I'm going to hang around for the retooling on their part, unless it takes me that long to get to this part of the build.
05-31-2012, 07:54 PM
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Got the engine down to a longblock tonight.
It's uh.. pretty dirty! They said it had appx 179k miles on it, I'd believe it. This is AFTER a good bit of cleanup.
It looks healthy tho. The spark plugs look alright, oil looks like it was changed regularly.. the motor was maintained it seems. I am considering having it freshened up tho. New bearings, rings, have it tanked and re-assembled by a shop. I did this on my last motor, cost about $900 for the labor.
The car won't see a LOT of road time, and it won't be a redline dragster or anything, but it would be good peace of mind (piece?) that it would be a "fresh" engine.
It's uh.. pretty dirty! They said it had appx 179k miles on it, I'd believe it. This is AFTER a good bit of cleanup.
It looks healthy tho. The spark plugs look alright, oil looks like it was changed regularly.. the motor was maintained it seems. I am considering having it freshened up tho. New bearings, rings, have it tanked and re-assembled by a shop. I did this on my last motor, cost about $900 for the labor.
The car won't see a LOT of road time, and it won't be a redline dragster or anything, but it would be good peace of mind (piece?) that it would be a "fresh" engine.
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06-01-2012, 08:08 AM
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To me it's really not that far torn down, I could have it back together in probably half an hour, but yea, I want to make sure I do this right. My uncle is still alive and has a lot of pride in his car. The work I do to it I want to make sure I do right.
I'm debating the paint scheme on the motor tbh. Perhaps a chevy orange block, I want to use the truck intake and all and paint the vortec engine cover, but I'm not sure what color to paint it.
I feel like I should respect GM's factory coloring and spin off of that, rather than trying to match the harbor blue/larkspur blue outside of the engine bay.
Perhaps an orange block and clean stock parts otherwise will look best. I'm not really a flashy CHROME/BILLET ALL THE THINGS type. Too much maintenance for me.
I'm debating the paint scheme on the motor tbh. Perhaps a chevy orange block, I want to use the truck intake and all and paint the vortec engine cover, but I'm not sure what color to paint it.
I feel like I should respect GM's factory coloring and spin off of that, rather than trying to match the harbor blue/larkspur blue outside of the engine bay.
Perhaps an orange block and clean stock parts otherwise will look best. I'm not really a flashy CHROME/BILLET ALL THE THINGS type. Too much maintenance for me.
06-01-2012, 06:03 PM
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Ran a carfax.
PICKUP
5.3L V8 MPI OHV
REAR WHEEL DRIVE
confirms it is a 5.3 and not 4.8 That's the only good thing on this carfax.
now the bad things:
Type of owner Rental
Last reported odometer reading 279,075
Truck has been in 3 accidents.
08/19/2011 Georgia
Damage Report Accident reported
Involving front impact
Involving right side impact
Extensive damage reported
Vehicle towed
That's the one that took it down.
Truck was taken into salvage 10/2011.
Engine is DEFINITELY getting a rebuild.
PICKUP
5.3L V8 MPI OHV
REAR WHEEL DRIVE
confirms it is a 5.3 and not 4.8 That's the only good thing on this carfax.
now the bad things:
Type of owner Rental
Last reported odometer reading 279,075
Truck has been in 3 accidents.
08/19/2011 Georgia
Damage Report Accident reported
Involving front impact
Involving right side impact
Extensive damage reported
Vehicle towed
That's the one that took it down.
Truck was taken into salvage 10/2011.
Engine is DEFINITELY getting a rebuild.
06-02-2012, 08:40 AM
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Looking forward to watching your progress! Lots of Tri-Five info over on this site:
http://www.trifive.com/forums/index.php
http://www.trifive.com/forums/index.php
06-02-2012, 10:35 AM
#12
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I would get new pistons the newer units have coatings to help prevent piston slap. If it was me I would do the 4.8/ late model 5.3L flat tops and add 799.243 heads. Since you have to rebuild the head anyway. These can be had for $400-450 a set on ebay most times used and in good shape. That would increase HP for not that much money.
Also, I would replace the cam as well, sure the stock one isn't in good shape. Might as well go with a LS6 one not really to bad price wise were $280 bucks or so at Summit.
Also, I would replace the cam as well, sure the stock one isn't in good shape. Might as well go with a LS6 one not really to bad price wise were $280 bucks or so at Summit.
06-02-2012, 01:06 PM
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I was talking to texas speed Friday about their 220R cam for the 5.3. I'm not interested in making the engine more powerful, as it should be plenty for this car stock. I just wanted a little cammed sound for the car when it's cruising into and out of the carshows and cruise-ins, and cruising the strip in places like pigeon forge. (I'd really like to take it there.. but it would be trailered.)
I avoided another engine that had 706 heads, this one has 843s? I'm honestly not concerned, so long as they don't have a casting problem like the 706s have been known to have.
TSP said if I could find a shop to do a valve job on these, they'd expect ~150-300$ for the job. If so, that's the best bet I'd say.
I'd rather not do new pistons unless some can be sourced cheap. I am familiar with piston slap (my 4th gen had it.. god it was annoying too..) but kinda thought.. I dunno I guess I figured new rings and machining might help.
I haven't talked to the shop formally about the rebuild yet. Thanks for bringing that up. I'll talk to them about it and we'll try to decide what the cheapest route is for that.
Stock-like 5.3L performance is plenty sufficient.
I went to a salvage yard today and picked up some S-10 15x7s. I'm about to test fit one, then I'll take them to discount tire and have some tires put on them that fit. (these tires are huge and one has a hole in it that.. I kinda made.)
I avoided another engine that had 706 heads, this one has 843s? I'm honestly not concerned, so long as they don't have a casting problem like the 706s have been known to have.
TSP said if I could find a shop to do a valve job on these, they'd expect ~150-300$ for the job. If so, that's the best bet I'd say.
I'd rather not do new pistons unless some can be sourced cheap. I am familiar with piston slap (my 4th gen had it.. god it was annoying too..) but kinda thought.. I dunno I guess I figured new rings and machining might help.
I haven't talked to the shop formally about the rebuild yet. Thanks for bringing that up. I'll talk to them about it and we'll try to decide what the cheapest route is for that.
Stock-like 5.3L performance is plenty sufficient.
I went to a salvage yard today and picked up some S-10 15x7s. I'm about to test fit one, then I'll take them to discount tire and have some tires put on them that fit. (these tires are huge and one has a hole in it that.. I kinda made.
)
06-02-2012, 02:44 PM
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These are the rims on the car now. OE 14x5s. The paint looks good on them.
Long term I want to get some wheel vintiques 14x8s and have a machine shop weld the small dimples onto them that the stock hubcaps require, then get some coker radials, so that it will look just like this.. only radial.. and reasonably wide.
Truck mode engaged.
Test fitting the rim. I dropped them off afterwards to have the proper size tire put on them.
current drum brake setup.
06-02-2012, 07:13 PM
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The rust did strike me as odd. Think it's a problem? Lots of old SBCs have rusty/thick coolant when you crack them open and flush the coolant form years of use. I wouldn't THINK there'd be any issue outside of just needing it to be flushed.
06-02-2012, 07:21 PM
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It could be made worse by the dexcool. Just Tank it and it should clean out. I would run green coolant though. Price one pay's having an iron block I assume.
06-02-2012, 08:14 PM
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cool.
Well, looks like I'm probably updated out for now.
tires will be ready Tuesday, probably wont get them till wednesday unless I can come home, get the truck, then go back to the tire place before 6. It's not impossible, but improbable.
I dont wanna drive my truck to work.
I will take the heads by Monday afternoon to HPS (hunters performance here in town does all my work, great guys there!) and have them give em a look over and price out what it will cost to re-do them.
Ultimately I'll have them re-do the whole engine, but frankly, it's lower priority right now. Priority right now is chassis prep.
the rims are a step toward the disc brake conversion. When that is done I'll look at re-doing the rearend.
Well, looks like I'm probably updated out for now.
tires will be ready Tuesday, probably wont get them till wednesday unless I can come home, get the truck, then go back to the tire place before 6. It's not impossible, but improbable.
I dont wanna drive my truck to work.
I will take the heads by Monday afternoon to HPS (hunters performance here in town does all my work, great guys there!) and have them give em a look over and price out what it will cost to re-do them.
Ultimately I'll have them re-do the whole engine, but frankly, it's lower priority right now. Priority right now is chassis prep.
the rims are a step toward the disc brake conversion. When that is done I'll look at re-doing the rearend.
06-04-2012, 09:08 AM
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Query to those of you saying I should look for new pistons..
this is shaping up to be a rather expernsive endeavor. GM wants $135 per piston and $41 per ring set. So a set of OEM pistons/rings is ~$1400. A weisco flat top piston set is $750.
Frankly, both of these negate the benefit of buying a used motor to begin with. I had hoped to re-use the stock rotating assembly as this is NOT a high horsepower build, but it needs to be reliable.
GM sells a 5.3 create motor for $3500. Should I be just saving toward that goal? Or can I do this cheaper?
My LQ4 only ran me about $900 to rebuild but I re-used my stock rotating assembly and did not turn the crank or machine the block.
This engine, with this kind of mileage, would most likely need the block bored, crank turned, new pistons, rings, and bearings, not to mention a full valve job on the heads.
I had planned to do new lifters, timing chain, oil pump, lifter trays, full gaskets, cam, and springs anyway, so at least a good $1000 there is fixed cost.
this is shaping up to be a rather expernsive endeavor. GM wants $135 per piston and $41 per ring set. So a set of OEM pistons/rings is ~$1400. A weisco flat top piston set is $750.
Frankly, both of these negate the benefit of buying a used motor to begin with. I had hoped to re-use the stock rotating assembly as this is NOT a high horsepower build, but it needs to be reliable.
GM sells a 5.3 create motor for $3500. Should I be just saving toward that goal? Or can I do this cheaper?
My LQ4 only ran me about $900 to rebuild but I re-used my stock rotating assembly and did not turn the crank or machine the block.
This engine, with this kind of mileage, would most likely need the block bored, crank turned, new pistons, rings, and bearings, not to mention a full valve job on the heads.
I had planned to do new lifters, timing chain, oil pump, lifter trays, full gaskets, cam, and springs anyway, so at least a good $1000 there is fixed cost.