Rebuilding Dad's Panoz; LS1 swap
06-26-2012, 12:40 PM
#1
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Rebuilding Dad's Panoz; LS1 swap UPDATE - She's ALIVE!!!
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ORIGINAL POST
After two failed SBFs and lots of downtime it's time for a full refurbish and LS1 swap + TKO600 etc. etc. etc.
We can rebuild him... we have the technology...
Done with the post race inspection/next race prep on the Z06 (mine). Time to push the Panoz in (my father's).
Taking it all apart to paint the chassis/interior gloss white.
Wing was surprisingly heavy; all metal.
The neighbors love me.
That's sitting at an odd angle...
Piece of **** Ford. This was a DSS 347 with a stud girdle...
No more hacked up 15+ year old EFI harness and wiring job...
Will update as I progress. Goal is to have the car ready for the October NASA event at VIR. I'll probably be asking a few questions as this car and the project isn't plug n' play like modding a factory built car.
~Brian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ORIGINAL POST
After two failed SBFs and lots of downtime it's time for a full refurbish and LS1 swap + TKO600 etc. etc. etc.
We can rebuild him... we have the technology...
Done with the post race inspection/next race prep on the Z06 (mine). Time to push the Panoz in (my father's).
Taking it all apart to paint the chassis/interior gloss white.
Wing was surprisingly heavy; all metal.
The neighbors love me.
That's sitting at an odd angle...
Piece of **** Ford. This was a DSS 347 with a stud girdle...
No more hacked up 15+ year old EFI harness and wiring job...
Will update as I progress. Goal is to have the car ready for the October NASA event at VIR. I'll probably be asking a few questions as this car and the project isn't plug n' play like modding a factory built car.
~Brian
Last edited by Cobra4B; 05-26-2013 at 08:36 PM.
06-26-2012, 01:13 PM
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The engine was never right from the start. Didn't get a single track weekend in in 2011 w/o some sort of issue. Started to tick/knock late last year. Shop swore it was just a noisy lifter, but didn't buy it (which is why I don't care for letting shops do the work). Failed catastrophically in February on the back straight at VIR.
347 tick
http://youtu.be/VxQLDHpGgeA
06-26-2012, 03:14 PM
#5
Brian,
What are you going to do for an oiling system on the LS1? You are aware (hopefully) that the LSx stuff (not Vette GS) suffers from oil starvation issues on roadcourse applications. That Panoz will pull enough G's to put you at risk.
Keep us abreast of your progress.
Andy1
What are you going to do for an oiling system on the LS1? You are aware (hopefully) that the LSx stuff (not Vette GS) suffers from oil starvation issues on roadcourse applications. That Panoz will pull enough G's to put you at risk.
Keep us abreast of your progress.
Andy1
06-26-2012, 03:35 PM
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I've been W2W racing and TimeTrialing my Z06 for two years w/o issue; been tracking C5s for 10 years now. I hold the NASA TTA track records at VIR and Summit Point. It gets driven as hard as I can wheel it. The car has a LS4 high volume pump (42 psi relief spring) and a DRM oil cooler kit with a Setrab cooler. No accusump, no drysump. The longblock is the original one it came with in 2001 with over 122,000 miles on it now. The last 3k all track use and it still made 365 rwhp when I had my NASA dyno certification done this February. The car's only power mods are a Halltech filter replacing the stock airbox, the ATI damper, and a cat delete on the stock H-pipe. In prepping the car I simply installed the following:
1. Fresh LS6 springs
2. Lower mileage rocker arms
3. Lower mileage injectors
4. Fresh LS2 timing chain
5. 10% underdriven ATI superdamper
6. DRM oil cooler kit
Full build of the car can be seen HERE
The Panoz mill will receive similar treatment and a good baffled road race pan. The car is comparable in speed to my Z06. A few years back I had the Panoz running low 2:06s @ VIR on 275 R6s with 320 rwhp. I've turned a best of 2:03.6 (current TTA record) in the Z06.
The later LS motors (2, 3, and 7 etc.) have a few issues the LS1/LS6s don't have. The LS2 has revised oil galleys and a wingless pan. The LS3/LS7 have larger intake ports which required changing the oil drainback passages. As such, the oil gets hung up in the head easily when racing. These engines are much more in need of band-aids than the LS1/6.
A better shot of my Z06
1. Fresh LS6 springs
2. Lower mileage rocker arms
3. Lower mileage injectors
4. Fresh LS2 timing chain
5. 10% underdriven ATI superdamper
6. DRM oil cooler kit
Full build of the car can be seen HERE
The Panoz mill will receive similar treatment and a good baffled road race pan. The car is comparable in speed to my Z06. A few years back I had the Panoz running low 2:06s @ VIR on 275 R6s with 320 rwhp. I've turned a best of 2:03.6 (current TTA record) in the Z06.
The later LS motors (2, 3, and 7 etc.) have a few issues the LS1/LS6s don't have. The LS2 has revised oil galleys and a wingless pan. The LS3/LS7 have larger intake ports which required changing the oil drainback passages. As such, the oil gets hung up in the head easily when racing. These engines are much more in need of band-aids than the LS1/6.
A better shot of my Z06
06-27-2012, 11:24 AM
#7
Brian,
Nice car; always fun to watch the vids. Good to read a response from someone with some track experience. I've read several (many, actually) instances of bearing failures due to oil starvation mostly on (as you said) LS2 and later; some guys have been losing motors within 15 minutes. Long sweeping left handers seem to be the most common place that failures have been experienced. Far fewer of those failures have been with the LS6. I've spoken with the Vette guys on the West coast, but get lots of different opinions. I've always speculated that the heads fill with oil due to poor drain back which then leaves the pan with an inadequate supply of oil.
All that said, anyone can read a bunch of stuff on the Net and *feel* informed, but there's nothing quite like hands-on experience. I am near completion of a 914 Porsche/LS1/Audi 6 speed conversion, and intend on doing a bit of chassis development at the track and of course don't want to launch my motor while doing so, ergo the concern. My buddy has a caged 914/SBC (500HP 383")/930 that I've been working with to get the handling sorted. He runs a roadrace pan and an Accusump and has had zero oiling problems for 5 years.
I've been around racing my whole life, and have a few laps under my belt too, but haven't driven anything in anger (W2W) for probably 12-13 years.
Andy1
Nice car; always fun to watch the vids. Good to read a response from someone with some track experience. I've read several (many, actually) instances of bearing failures due to oil starvation mostly on (as you said) LS2 and later; some guys have been losing motors within 15 minutes. Long sweeping left handers seem to be the most common place that failures have been experienced. Far fewer of those failures have been with the LS6. I've spoken with the Vette guys on the West coast, but get lots of different opinions. I've always speculated that the heads fill with oil due to poor drain back which then leaves the pan with an inadequate supply of oil.
All that said, anyone can read a bunch of stuff on the Net and *feel* informed, but there's nothing quite like hands-on experience. I am near completion of a 914 Porsche/LS1/Audi 6 speed conversion, and intend on doing a bit of chassis development at the track and of course don't want to launch my motor while doing so, ergo the concern. My buddy has a caged 914/SBC (500HP 383")/930 that I've been working with to get the handling sorted. He runs a roadrace pan and an Accusump and has had zero oiling problems for 5 years.
I've been around racing my whole life, and have a few laps under my belt too, but haven't driven anything in anger (W2W) for probably 12-13 years.
Andy1
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06-27-2012, 11:52 AM
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Short of a full dry-sump the only thing you can do is run a good baffled pan and an accusump. You can also drill your lifter cups for improved oil return or even go to link-bar lifters which don't use a cup at all. Even then you do hear stories about people destroying their motors on the long sweeping left-handers. I will admit that one of the tracks I frequent have them: VIR, Summit Point, and Road Atlanta. So for all I know my car could exhibit the same issue if put in that circumstance. That said, I've never seen less than mid 50s on track when fully hot. I run Amsoil XL 10w40 FWIW.
EDIT: I noticed in your other post you said, "Not Vette GS". To be honest you hear of more issues with these cars than the old LS1/6. GM's "dry sump" isn't a true dry sump and they still get into oiling issues when run hard on sticky tires. I think it was '09 when GM upgraded the capacity on the Z06 tanks (went into GS and ZR1 production) or allowed owners to install a Lingenfelter tank with increased capacity. Pretty sad that GM puts out a car with a dry sump and still has oiling issues!
There's a post floating around on CorvetteForum in the C6Z06 section where an avid tracker installed a secondary oil pressure sensor and datalogged it throughout his sessions. The pressure would always dip in the long left hand turns. After he installed the newer oil tank it got better, but would always dip in those areas.
Best of luck with your build any links to pictures?
EDIT: I noticed in your other post you said, "Not Vette GS". To be honest you hear of more issues with these cars than the old LS1/6. GM's "dry sump" isn't a true dry sump and they still get into oiling issues when run hard on sticky tires. I think it was '09 when GM upgraded the capacity on the Z06 tanks (went into GS and ZR1 production) or allowed owners to install a Lingenfelter tank with increased capacity. Pretty sad that GM puts out a car with a dry sump and still has oiling issues!
There's a post floating around on CorvetteForum in the C6Z06 section where an avid tracker installed a secondary oil pressure sensor and datalogged it throughout his sessions. The pressure would always dip in the long left hand turns. After he installed the newer oil tank it got better, but would always dip in those areas.
Best of luck with your build any links to pictures?
06-27-2012, 02:19 PM
#9
Yeah, those Vette racers I spoke with said pretty much the same thing; larger capacity tank made the problems go away-perhaps not entirely, but they believe so.
I'll probably do a build log or something of the sort, but I don't have a lot of time these days. Here's an engine/trans photo, and car at paint shop last year. Hope to get it driveable by August.
Andy1
I'll probably do a build log or something of the sort, but I don't have a lot of time these days. Here's an engine/trans photo, and car at paint shop last year. Hope to get it driveable by August.
Andy1
06-28-2012, 11:26 PM
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Very nice Andy... hard to believe that'll fit back there longitudinally.
Got some more engine parts off... It's broke good... it'll be interesting to see if something in the bottom-end failed or if the block just let go from being too weak for the application. It was only making around 370 rwhp. Piece of ****.
Got some more engine parts off... It's broke good... it'll be interesting to see if something in the bottom-end failed or if the block just let go from being too weak for the application. It was only making around 370 rwhp. Piece of ****.
06-29-2012, 11:24 AM
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Wow thats crazy. If you are looking for a used ls/t56 combo check out copart.com. I bought a whole 01 Camaro Z28 for 4k and parted most of it out and am into my swap for about 1500 or so. To me this was much cheaper than spending 3-4k on a running LS/t56 combo.
07-12-2012, 01:12 AM
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Radiator support and front suspension all removed. Getting ready to pull the engine.
Front suspension assemblies
Brembos going to get rebuilt and fresh powdercoat
Front suspension assemblies
Brembos going to get rebuilt and fresh powdercoat
07-12-2012, 08:01 AM
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LS1 Performer RPM manifold and reusing the Pro Systems road race carb on the current 347 SBF. Car will be limited based on power/weight ratio for a racing class. The car will be very light with the aluminum block and manual steering; about 2500 lbs. Thus, it can only make 320-330 rwhp. A stock LS1 with the carb manifold and side pipes will probably make more that that so I'll have to pull timing whenever it hits max horsepower.
07-12-2012, 10:21 PM
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Trying to figure out if the bottom end failed and the crank snapped. Or, did the block fail first and then take out the bottom end? The thing that pisses me off is that it never completed a track weekend in 2011 w/o some kind of issue. The car was shifted at 6000 rpms and was making around 370 rwhp:
March - Filling up catch can and custom dipstick gets stuck.
July - Breaks a valve spring. Shop used old springs that were on the heads that came off the blown up 5.0 that was swapped out.
October - Car chucks the water pump pulley. Bolts weren't safety wired and I had no idea that was something that had to be checked. Car is my father's and I just don't know Fords like I do LSXs.
February (2012)- Catastrophic failure on the back straight of VIR at top of 4th gear; no warnings, oil pressure fine.
It started ticking when my dad got it back from the valve spring replacement in July last year. Shop swore it was a lazy lifter, but I felt otherwise. It sounded like rod nock to me, but they were adamant it was fine. Of course when it **** the bed in February they said it was that the stock block was too week for the power.
Supposed lifter tick (probably rod knock) - http://youtu.be/VxQLDHpGgeA
Any tips on what to look for as I dig into this thing? Very curious if the block failed or if the crank/bottom end failed.
March - Filling up catch can and custom dipstick gets stuck.
July - Breaks a valve spring. Shop used old springs that were on the heads that came off the blown up 5.0 that was swapped out.
October - Car chucks the water pump pulley. Bolts weren't safety wired and I had no idea that was something that had to be checked. Car is my father's and I just don't know Fords like I do LSXs.
February (2012)- Catastrophic failure on the back straight of VIR at top of 4th gear; no warnings, oil pressure fine.
It started ticking when my dad got it back from the valve spring replacement in July last year. Shop swore it was a lazy lifter, but I felt otherwise. It sounded like rod nock to me, but they were adamant it was fine. Of course when it **** the bed in February they said it was that the stock block was too week for the power.
Supposed lifter tick (probably rod knock) - http://youtu.be/VxQLDHpGgeA
Any tips on what to look for as I dig into this thing? Very curious if the block failed or if the crank/bottom end failed.
