Famine67

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys,

I'm going to be swapping in an LS into a Pro-Touring build. This is a daily driven car that sees track use probably twice a year at Laguna Seca and Thunderhill as well as the occasional Auto-X.

My goal is to go somewhere around 450whp on a streetable cam. More is obviously better, less is acceptable.

Right now engine pullouts seem to be the most attractive options from a pricing standpoint. These include the engine, trans, and all electronic accessories. I will need the ECM and accessories to complete this swap.

LS2 pullouts from GTO's seem to be around 2K cheaper than LS3 pullouts from Camaros. I've also read around and noted that LS2's can be improved greatly by an intake change. If I slap LS3 heads on there and sell the old LS2 stuff, the motor is pretty competitive with the stock LS3 for slightly less money. The GTO T-56 is also has some similarities to the TR6060 such as the triple synchros.

On the other hand, LS3's seem to be a simple cam swap away from my 450whp goal or more. The LS3's from Camaros also come with the TR6060 (T-56 Magnum) which (I think) is slightly better than the T-56 from the goat. I'm worried that the GM heads and intake on the LS3 are at that ugly half-way point where they aren't crappy enough like the LS2's intake to warrant a replacement, but not good enough to give me the performance and juicy power curves of the aftermarket stuff.

Which would be the best starting point?

1989GTA

The LS3 if you can afford it. The heads on the LS3 respond well to CNC porting. I would think from a road racing standpoint you would also like a little more torque and the LS3 would have a slight edge. From that standpoint maybe the L99 with VVT might be a good starting point. Just food for thought.

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

More bigger = more better...

Andrew

oldgoat69

Just out of curiosity, what is the car? Depending on your budget, you may want to look at more of a purpose built engine like a Mast 427 or Edelbrock to name a couple. Or if budget is a concern look at an LQ4 or LQ9 and some upgrades. These engines are quite easy to make giant power compared to other engine families. A big benefit to the LS is that you can make upgrades as you go along providing you adjust the tuning to follow. Just a note to pay attention to is the fact that the earlier LS2 is 24 tooth reluctor and LS3 is 58. The PCM's are different as are some of the other support electronics.

Famine67

iTrader: (3)

First Gen Camaro. I'd like the car to turn so I want to avoid iron block engines.

Thanks for the info on the reluctor, I hadn't realized.

Another option is the L99 or L92. I need to do more research on their VVT before I seriously consider those.

toytech93

iTrader: (2)

For a street car, I lean more towards cathedral-ports for better low and mid-range drivability.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

The added weight of the iron block is hardly top of the concerns for a 1st gen being able to turn. Time & money spent on suspension (especially geometry improvements) and tires is a better bet than the added premium for an aluminum block.

VVT can be eliminated without much trouble if you don't want it.

chuckd71

iTrader: (23)

Either way, with daily driver and a rare auto-x in mind, it's unlikely you'd notice a difference. Don't let this forum convince you that you need something you don't. Odds are, if you don't know why you're spending $2k extra you probably don't need to.

superdave84

Agree. LS2s are rated at 405 HP stock, LS3s are 430 stock. 25 HP for an extra $2,000 is silly to me.

will69camaro

iTrader: (19)

The T6060 for a 5th gen camaro doesn't go straight in, need either diff tail section (magnum one) or modify the shifter setup and the drive shaft to work. I say get a pull out L92/LS3/L99 and do a magnum in it. Easy to hit your numbers and easy to do.

William

Pop N Wood

iTrader: (1)

From a price perspective you need to look at the oil pan and front end accessories and whether they will fit your car. From what I understand there are some differences in the sifter location and the output yoke of the newer and older transmissions. So factor in that potential cost difference if one doesn't fit your car and the other does.

Beyond that you need to start shopping and buy which ever one you can get the better deal on. It isn't silly to pay more if it gives you what you want. Just be very careful about hidden costs, like swapping out stuff that just doesn't fit.

Famine67

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Yes I have researched this for both engines. Almost everything fits (which is nice) and any incompatibilities tend to cancel each other out.

The Driveshaft Shop makes a driveshaft that can be used to mate a stock TR6060 to a LRA. It places the slip yoke in a different position on the DS, it costs a pretty penny though.

You have a good point though. If I buy the engine separately I can skip this cost and use the money on something nice. Unfortunately it seems used T56's are scarce.

Good points. Besides a better transmission, the 2K also buys a bit of piece of mind. I get skeptical when somebody tells me that a 7 year old car has only done 35K miles.

LS3 also has a better torque curve, L92's can be had for about the same or less than an LS2. This option looks more attractive as I do research.

I've spent money on the brakes and suspension already, I'm pretty happy with the cornering. The weight balance is approaching 50/50 and I calculated that it would probably get there with an aluminum block engine. I also like the VVT on the L92, so that's a plus.

gagliano7

I had a 2005 gto with the ls2 and a 2008 vette with the ls3. The Ls3 might only have 30 more hp but that motor pulled right to redline 6500 rpms while the ls2 would lose steam at 5700 rpms. I don't know if it is worth the extra $2000 but if I had to choose I would go with the LS3.

Pop N Wood

iTrader: (1)

also keep in mind the cost of used T56 plus an unexpected rebuild will be close to if not more than a brand new aftermarket unit. Not sure where you are going on gauges, but the aftermarket units can be had with both electronic and mechanical speedo outputs. buy a new one and you can use a traditional driveshaft and stock speedo.

will69camaro

iTrader: (19)

I know you can make the driveshaft work. What do they do about the shifter on the 6060? 5th gens are body mounted, where the first gens are trans mounted shifters.

I'd say get LS3 pullout and get a stock T56 Magnum from Tremec (or american powertrain/etc). Magnum has 6060 internals which are a big improvement over the T56 in any configuration. Case fit well in my car when we were test fitting everything. They can be had for under 3k NEW and you know it'll work and last.

William

Famine67

iTrader: (3)

There are conversions available to convert TR6060's to transmission mounted. I think you guys have a point about buying a new T-56 Magnum. Good used T-56 Magnums seem to be scarce. At least I can't find them. It might be worth the peace of mind and chance to spec exactly what I'm looking for.

I'll also have to do research for wiring harnesses for these engines. I know I can buy a purpose built harness from Speartech or a similar vendor, but buying an existing harness and then having it modified seems more economical. For the L92 or any VVT engine it seems that I need a harness and ECU built specifically to handle the VVT. I found the GM parts numbers for the harness and ECU.

L92 ECM - PN 12612384 (listed as 'Emission Control System Hardware')

Harness - PN 15909597

So I think I could use those in a L92 engine

1989GTA

As for the E38 ECM I would shoot for one that was used in a later model. Say a 2010 or later Corvette or Camaro. Even the Corvette software has the VVT in it. It is just not turned on. This way you get the later revisions. Speartech is a great source for information on this.

As to the wiring harness that one will do. The base wiring is pretty much the same for all. The one you have picked includes the VVT wiring.

74modified

I would plan on freshening up any T56 just from age if not miles. The 6060 requires a little more thought. Converting the 6060 to a slip yoke can be done.
Here is one way
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...body-pics.html
Here is a well done thread on the Camaro drive train in a first gen. He used a McLeod shifter and the CV driveshaft.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...68-camaro.html
I would really check my suspension travel for track use with the CV driveshaft. There is only a small amount of travel in the joint. A two piece shaft like the Camaro originally used is another option. It wasn't a problem for me because of my fixed diff IRS. I built a shifter/bracket to place the shifter where I wanted it and remove some of the slop that the factory shifters have.

grocerygetter

iTrader: (2)

An ls3 can hit 500whp with very mild head work, big cam, under drive pulley, and free flowing intake/exhaust.

Famine67

iTrader: (3)

I wasn't aware that all the ECU's had the VVT software. Thanks. So I should be good with a generic 58x harness and generic E38 ECU.

Yes, I saw thinking of that '68 thread. Great build, it led me to the conversion info for a TR6060 for 60's Pony Cars.

TSP's VVT cam seems to regularly get stock cars up about 100hp. The LS3/L99/L92 definitely has a lot of potential.