Punisher8738

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I'm tight on clearance too with the current truck water pump.

More than likely I'll be swapping over to a car pump and when I do I'm going to upgrade to an Evans cooling high flow pump and their coolant.

On a side note, beautiful place to live. We used Minhad AB back in 04 when we were flying missions into Iraq. I remember seeing the trunk of the sand palm tree being built into the gulf.

Jeepthing

Considering this seems to be such a common issue with Jeep owners it would be great if those who DO NOT have issues could post up their exact set-up. I know from my research that two vehicles with the same exact set-up may not cool the exact same but the more info the better.

Several have mentioned high flow water pumps, what are the options that most are using? Following along this thought I must have placed my motor further back in the frame than most as I seem to have plenty of clearance for the fan/shroud...

Avarookie

iTrader: (8)

I passed this thread link on to the guy who posted the thread I posted above on Jeep Forum. Hopefully he will be able to give better infoamtion, but I am pretty sure he will be asking for picues as well. Reading only gives you so much information (at least for me). Having something to look at can/may give better information and also bring up more detailed answers/questions....

Jeepthing

So after looking through the thread below about mods to a LS for a Jeep it got me thinking about IAT and the relationship to underhood temps and airflow.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...ake-motor.html

Obviously cooler intake temps are better, and from my constant watching of the scanner I am seeing IAT of 140+. Intake is a cone style behind the passenger headlight, no "shroud" or box of any kind to isolate from engine heat.

Am I correct in assuming that this "could" be a sign that the hot air is blocking up under the hood?

Avarookie

iTrader: (8)

Is your air filter closed off from the engine temp's? I have seen improved engine performance that went hand in hand with HP and TQ gains, just by blocking it off from the engine temps. Just an idea....

Jeepthing

Avarookie, you probably missed it but I mentioned in my post that the air filter is not blocked off from engine heat etc. The filter is open just behind the passenger headlight. I know there is some potential power in a colder IAT, and on top of that, timing is pulled when IAT are high from what I have read.

My curiosity lies in if the high IAT indicates air getting trapped in the engine compartment and thus not creating the low pressure zone needed to get air through the radiator.

At this point I hope relocating the trans cooler and opening up the inner fenders gets me about 10 degrees across the board. If so I think I will be good to go...

Avarookie

iTrader: (8)

Sounds good if you are happy with the results. If it were me, and I know it isn't, I would take the time to make the air dam that would create the low pressure draw. It may take some time to figure it out, but the benefits that come from it just may keep you from cutting your jeep up like swiss cheese to get the same effect.
I know it's hard to see, and I designed it that way on purpose. If you look on page two of your topic, in the burn out picture, I actually have my trans cooler mounted directly behind the front bumper, right behind the license plate area. It has a draw style fan mounted to it on the rad. side. I used a hole saw (4-1" holes IIRC) to let the air flow through the bumper metal. It is all hidden by a plastic ford dealer license plate that is installed backwards and painted black. I cut elongated slots in the plastic to allow for air flow to go through it and the bumper to the cooler. Once I made my fan shroud, I went back to the factory cooler and location, no issues. Trust me, there is always a way, you just have to find it.
I did notice that in the topic from jeep forum, his radiator and fans are pretty stout, have you taken the time to contact him?
Honestly, with out the pictures to see what you actually have, I'm done with the guessing game. We all could give ideas until the end of time, someone might get lucky and hit it. But it's been how long without them, not even a quick phone pic. or two?
Good luck, let us know what you come up with, it may be information others can use.....

Punisher8738

iTrader: (1)

Finally some good news. Novak has shipped off my new radiator and fan/shroud assembly.

I plan on just going ahead with the lincoln fan and making the air dam. Hopefully I'll have some results in soon while it's still 100+ here.

Jeepthing

Punisher8738 glad to hear parts are on their way to you, I hope they make a difference.

Avarookie I appreciate your comments, ideas, and opinions. I realize pics can be helpful in getting a better idea of a specific situation. Every vehicle has limitations, whether it be grill opening size or physical space for the radiator. An air dam just isn't going to happen, with a front bumper that is 28" off the ground, and based on how the vehicle is used, its not just a good option. Trust me I wish it were as I would add one in a heartbeat as it does seem like a great way to create the pressure differential needed for cooling air flow.

I have attached a pic of the engine bay, its pretty tight with not much room for air to circulate. The best way I can see getting air out is to open up the inner fenders. While I certainly don't want to "swiss cheese" the vehicle I have to get the air out somehow, and this is really the only option. I can certainly do so in a clean manner that wont hurt the aesthetics (in my opinion at least).

chafik

- did isolate the gap between condenser and radiator at the upper end... and at the sides.
- at the same time the rubber foam A/C pipe insulator was serving as isolator lip against the hood.

still temp creep (but it takes longer to get there ... before it started within a few minutes running above 60mph ... now it takes like 15 minutes of driving at higher speed/rpms (2500) to slowly get there)

but another interesting thing:
helped a friend who was trying to fix highway overheating with his 2014 JK ... supercharged and with fat water to air intercooler in his grill. He was getting temp creep as soon he was driving at 3000 rpms for 2 minutes ... (quite severe).
Other than that his (obviously marginal) stock cooling was working well even with A/C on all day long at noon heat in stop and go traffic.

After some experiments and removal of winch controller and led light bar and number plate holder ... no improvement ... UNTIL

after removal of the nice mesh(!) grill inserts ALL WAS GOOD!
We really tried hard to get the SCed pentastar to temp creep mode at more than 110F outside temp ...

So ... I have the same effen mesh grill inserts ... to optically somehow cover up the trans and ps pump coolers and to protect them against flying pepples.

NEXT on MY list : remove the grille inserts
(it is a pain to do so though by just loosening everything up and pushing it backwards against the WP pulley )

chafik

ok ... here some photos of the "thing" ... after I did this foam pipe insulator mod at the upper end of the rad.







today I removed that mesh grille insert thing ... aaannd:

another gradual improvement!

going down the highway (to the workshop) at exactly 70mph/~2500rpm for 15 minutes WITH grille inserts : scangaugeII to GM PCM gave me 220-223F with AC on.

coming back without grille inserts an hour later ... same speed/rpms for 15min
215-216F with AC on!

The deep Jeep grille with those vertical slots seems to cause some kind of RAM effect already ... disturbing this at the very front of the slots (with those stupid 3D mesh grille inserts) seems to have quite some effect.

I am nearly there ...

NEXT mod:
I had the chance to examine that Spal fan again ... below a photo before putting the combo in:



notice that fan motor cage ... if the effen grille inserts were causing airflow restriction then why TF do I need to live with that much ribbing???
Am going to cut lots of those ribs out ... 50% or so ... just have to figure out a pattern which does keep as much structural stability as possible

Jeepthing

Chafik thanks for keeping us updated on your progress, it is helpful for sure. What is your current situation in regards to inner fenders? Do you have stock inners, modified, or aftermarket fenders?

Your post confirms what I have been thinking for a while now. There are several factors limiting the airflow and by making several changes you should get things under control. I don't think one change is the answer but several will get the job done...hopefully I'm right

I was looking at the trans cooler, that is still in front of the A/C condersor, and noticed the core tubes are angled. By this I mean the air does not go straight through the cooler, it has to change direction. This could be causing a loss of airflow as well...at least in my head...

lsxRanger94

You are correct. Air is like water, it always flows the path of least resistance.

chafik

As I said I have a 1.25 Body Lift ... which leaves some space between my factory inner fenders and the frame rail. I would only need to remove that masking sheets from the inner fenders. (But my observation is that the air gets directly blown against the waterpump/crank pulleys ... which are the main inevitable blockage behind the rad ... and to the sides there is quite some space between the lower engine block and the inner fenders). I will address the inner fenders later ... eventually. Because ... YES ... the TJ engine bay and the rad surface are different (marginal) and it is the sum of small thing which finally make the cooling/airflow perfect.

Two nights ago in my itchy urge to solve this XXXX I finally went down to the garage and cut nearly half the ribs off the fan cage with a cutter. Alternating pattern ... but keeping the radials connected ... so twist forces get some resistance.

But I screwed ...... one or two of those cut off ribs fell into the shroud ... (I did it with the rad still in place) ... and the tragic was (I was too lazy to drill open those pop rivets holding the shroud tight to the rad) I kept them in, thinking they get sucked out or stay there!

Today ... testing the new setup on the high way at outside temps of above 111F ... I managed to drive for an hour with A/C on at about 70 with coolant temps staying below 220F ... no more creep into higher regions ... increasing the speed to about 80mph gave me a constant 230F ... not perfect ... but not too bad and CONSTANT.

I reached deflation point ... THEN after 1 km offroad on desert terrain I heard belt squeal and could smell coolant ... temp was at about 224F. Popped the hood and coolant all over the place. Obviously I had punctured my aluminium rad with one of those "forgotten" ribs ... fraaaaaack

sooooo ... after cooling down the engine I managed to limb home at about 55-60mph at a constant 216F. Interestingly ... despite the rad taking a full gallon to get filled after I reached home ... the cooling obviously worked unpressurized.
(successful operation ... patient dead)

I hope I can get that hole welded tomorrow at our local aluminium rad specialist (triple fraaaaaack )

chafik

got my rad back today in the morning from the welder after I dropped it there yesterday.

There were TWO leaks:

- one severe one obviously from my recent plastic surgery remains

- and one small one with old coolant residue around it which obviously prevented the system to get properly pressurized for I don't know how long.
The micro leak was so tiny that it was only visible with a proper pressure test ... and the residue was only at the inner side towards/hidden by the fan/shroud.

The whole assembled system got tested with a "suction" test at about 26 psi (to unveil weak waterpump sealing) ... all tight now!

Coming back home from the workshop where I just picked up my ride:

outside temp 99F (in the garage)
IAT while driving (mixed HW and city) between ~125F and ~140F
coolant temp NEVER got above 211F with AC on all the time and about 10 minutes at 75mph (cannot go faster on that section without ticket) and the rest (10 more minutes) with 5 traffic lights on a 50 mph section.

verdict:
- remove grille inserts
- force as much as possible air through the rad ... by e.g. sealing least resistance bypass paths to keep a high pressure zone in front of the rad while driving faster!
- lighten up that SPAL fan motor plastic cage ... how much is too much? (time will show if I took off too much of that ribbing)
- make sure your Novak(Griffin?) radiator is absolutely tight right from the beginning!

My cooling is better than ever before ... I will keep you posted about tests on hotter days and more load ... so far it looks good
(I am sure it still can be improved even more...)

dw456post

Call Robbie at Mo Tech in Las Vegas. He uses a different radiator. My son has a 2008JK with a LS3 and 6l80 with the trans cooler in front of the radiator and condenser. He has no cooling problems.

Jeepthing

Chafik sorry to hear about the radiator leakage issues, hopefully its all good now...

I haven't had time to make any additional changes but still have plans to move the trans cooler and open up the inner fenders.

I have spoken to Robbie at Motech, really nice and helpful. He was willing to talk even though they don't sell a TJ conversion radiator. I believe their main focus is JK swaps but do handle TJ swaps on a more "custom" basis.

He mentioned using a dual speed fan, which the Novak programming is not set-up for. Will have to look into this further...

Jeepthing

Still no time to make any cooling related changes but did some more testing with a drive on Satrurday night.

I have been wanting to take a drive on a "local" toll highway. Speed limit is 75 so you can safely cruise at almost 80 mph. My goal was to see if the higher speeds and thus RPM's would have an effect as I would be more in the powerband. At 80 mph I am turning about 2250 rpm, in my opinion a little low. I never saw coolant temps above 195 at 80 mph, fan never turned on. It was cooler, probably 50 degrees. This leads me to believe that getting more air to the radiator will help.

The downside to the trip was upon return home I had a horrible noise coming from the Jeep, and at low speed a bad grinding noise. Once home I found the brand new, never hooked up, A/C Compressor must be bad. I feared it was actually drivetrain related but was "happy" to find the A/C Compressor the culprit. Makes me want to remove the A/C system entirely and thus get even more air to the radiator.

Anyone else have updates on their cooling situations?

indirocz28

iTrader: (7)

I was curious if you ever figured out to keep your jeep cool during those long pulls under load.
I was very interested in this thread then it died!

knaffie

Bumping up an old thread looking for help. I read the entire thread. I have a load-based (not speed based) overheating problem. Will cruise all day at 70-75+ with no issues. As soon as any incline starts, the temp goes up. I can’t drive up any grades on the highway for very long, regardless of speed. I can’t cruise more than 35-40 MPH on the sand. If there’s a strong headwind, I usually can’t go more than 50. If I climb a steep hill offroad (crawling speed / low range), it will also get very hot. I’ve seen 240 dozens of times before I realize it and back down. As soon as I back out of it, it cools down fast back to sub-190.

Here’s my setup:
• LJ on 40s with a stock L92 and 6L90E.
• Truck accessories.
• Novak’s newest radiator and shroud with the flaps.
• This fan: https://webstore.spalusa.com/en-us/p...-16-p-12v.aspx
• Engine tuned by Turnkey Engine Supply on their dyno.
• A/C and trans cooler in front of the radiator.
• No grille inserts.
• AEV vented hood.
• Genright vented fenders.
• Fender liners opened up some to clear coilovers and bypasses, but still mostly there.
• Winch and solenoid box in front, but not blocking too much air.
• OEM steam port piping used, vented to a port just below the upper radiator hose.

Quick history:
Had major overheating problems when I bought it. Novak acknowledged that the radiator I had was an older version they had found to be problematic, so they sent me a new one. With that, it still got hot, but recovered drastically faster.
I found that the cooling system was not holding pressure via a Harbor Freight pressure tester kit. Found a leaky heater core. Heater core is currently bypassed (hoses hooked together with a HELP fitting) until I can replace it. No difference in cooling.

Next steps (???):
• I was going to look for a part number on the fan and call Spal to verify it’s correct.
• PSC steering suggested an underdrive pulley on the crank to slow the water down. Claimed it worked wonders on their LS3 JK. Thoughts?
• ????