Rxmfn7

Wasnt sure if I should post this in the forced induction section or here, so mods feel free to move if you feel necessary. Anyway, Ive been test driving some 02-03 Z06s lately, and fairly certain Im going to buy one soon. One thing I do know, is my 1st mod will be some sort of forced induction. There are so many kits available though, Im a bit confused as to which will give me what I want. The car will mainly just be a weekend fun car, mostly street driven, although I do like to do both occasional trip to the drag strip, and the local road-race track (beaver-run in PA). So Id like something that will hold power/boost all the way until redline, and not overheat easily. Ive decided against a maggie blower, so its sort of between a kenne belle , procharger, or a APS TT kit. Ive rode in a KB equipped cobra, and I was pretty impressed, but I have yet to really see any real world input with the kits on the corvette. The only procharger car Ive had a chance to be in is a friends LT1 383 Camaro, and at only 7psi, it does pull hard, but seems to not really make any boost until almost 4k (is that normal?). Anyway, Ive been reading and searching alot, but could really use some comparisons from people who have this kits and live with them everyday. Thanks

Oh, and as for power goals.. in the future I would drop a forged stock cube shortblock in and up the boost a bit, but for now just looking for something safe for a stock engine , and make 550RWHP or so.

Jeenis

ive got a c6 z06, and i've also researched alot about what types of FI would work for my car. from all that i've gathered, if you want to go SC route, Procharger and Vortech are the main ones for vettes. for TT, APS is a solid choice. if there are no mods on your car yet, i'd go with the TT. if you want that lopey cam sound, go with small cam/SC route. tons of great info on corvetteforum.com, FI section. good luck with your choice.

ls1290

iTrader: (20)

For the 500 to 550 rwhp goal and the car mainly being a street car( with an occasional trip to the track ) I would go with a root or screw type of blower. Either the Kenny Bell or Magna Charger. Either one will make good lower end boost and will hit the rwhp goal with minor bolt ons. The low end boost will be great for the street and road track. Either one will require a new hood, so I am not sure if that is a positive or negative note

Keith

Fastbird93

iTrader: (10)

If you want a bolt on kit that makes GREAT power, the APS TT should get a close look. That kit is nearly a bolt on 550-600 RWHP on a ZO6. Great powerband, very linear, smooth, and the best part.....the APS TT setup is VERY stealth.

allngn_c5

iTrader: (3)

+ 1 on that. That system is sweet looking. I want to ride in or drive one of those monsters.

alwaysinboost

550hp is easy with either a turbo or SC so thats not an issue. the question is how do you want that power delivered?

A SC'ed car is kind of like having a big block motor. The power curve is very linear and the TQ is flat almost all the way to redline. With a proper setup the HP should climb all the way thru the RPM band and peak @ redline where the blower makes peak boost. Maintenance is minimal on a SC setup but the amount of boost is going to be fixed and require a pully change to adjust it. So once you get setup & tuned your always going to be running that amount of boost until you mechanically change it.

Most SC'ers make noise from idle to redline so there is no hiding the fact you're blown if a sleeper is what you're after. I've heard one SC car, a novi, that is pretty quite. I have a procharger and its the opposit, pretty loud.

A turbo car generally will have a much fatter lump of TQ lower in the RPM range then a SC car would, it should also make more peak TQ then a blower # for # but the trade off will be that the TQ is more of a peak and not as flat like on a SC. In a properly setup turbo system you will reach peak boost much earler then a SC car, and if its designed correctly will maintain that amount of boost almost all the way to redline. Maintenance is also minimal with the only real difference being your turbo(s) will be part of the oil system (and maybe water cooled) so if you run the car HARD and get the temps up there you are going to want to cool things down before you shut the car off.

Adjusting boost on a turbo car is aslo MUCH easier then with a SC. usually only requires the turn of a **** on an MBC or push of a button on an EBC, very flexable if you don't want to run around on kill 100% of the time. Also a turbo car normally is going to be quiter then a SC car, depending on where your turbo is mounted, what kind of exhaust you have and if your WG is rerouted. But they can be made to be VERY stealthy.

There are exceptions to ever rule so those examples are just in general. Either one is an excellent choice so you really can't go wrong.

Fastbird93

iTrader: (10)

http://www.fastbird93.com/Corvette/Dyno/TTDyno.JPG

Nothing really peaky about that TQ curve is there? Just add about 50-100 HP for the LS6 in the Z and that's where you'll be about.

The DOWNFALL to the APS kit is that there's been a lot of big HP talk, but no one's been able to do it. Over on CF, a challenge was issued and APS stepped up to the plate BIG TIME and is purchasing a C5 and building a larger displacement motor and will be doing some testing to figure out what combo it takes to get the big numbers out of it's kits.

Right now, it seems that the APS makes for a tremendous street/strip kit if you want to be in the 500 (stock LS1 based) to 650 (stock + high boost LS6 or built motor) range. The APS turbos look to be very well sized for the 346-383 range motors given how quick the boost comes on without much lag.

Rxmfn7

Can you pick the turbine sizes with the APS kits? Ive been building turbo rx-7s and other imports for years so Im alot more comfortable and knowledgable about turbos than with supercharging. While your graph looks good, power and TQ seem to be peaking and falling off at higher RPMS. Seems like you may be able to benefit from a larger exhaust housing, although it would slightly offset the quick spool, may be worth it in building more power until redline (7k+)

alwaysinboost

true, however that dyno pull was stopped @ 6k RPM. revving the motor out further to 6.5k or even 7k where most vette owners shift their cars when racing will exagerate that peak even further.

The below dyno sheet shows a little better what I'm trying to explain.



Notice how the TQ peaks @ 5k RPM, right at the point where the TQ on your dyno graph starts to drop off. Then maintains that amount of TQ to redline.

I'm not saying that EVERY setup is this way, there are exceptions to every rule, this is just a general description of the differences between the two.

Fastbird93

iTrader: (10)

Shoot, I can't see that second graph from work. I can say that the run on my car was stopped at 6 because power/tq was on the decline, thus no reason to keep pulling.

RXMFN7, unfortunately you don't have the ability to pick and choose turbo specs on the APS kit. I'm sure down the road there will be, but for now they're all the same turbo's in an off the shelf kit. I would guarantee that's one of the reasons why no one has made the claimed 800 RWHP yet either. Take into account though, I'm on a stock LS1 and not an LS6, and my "redline" per se is only about 6000 or so RPM anyway (stock rod bolts, 99 motor). If I opened up the top end some I'm sure I'd see two things: A noticable power gain, and a definitive shift in the powerband towards the top end.

Rxmfn7

Yea thats true. That APS kit is sounding more appealing, Ive always been a turbo guy, although the whine of a KB is pretty intoxicating too

silver01z06

the kb will take at least a 3in cowl in the hood to clear. the maggie takes a hood also but not as big as the kb. there is another tt kit that alot of people on corvetteforums seem to use and that is ttix. i would go turbo over supercharger everytime

alwaysinboost

yeah, thats exactly the point I was trying to make.

Fastbird93

iTrader: (10)

Ok gotcha. I would attribute that to the way a blower makes it's boost vs. a turbo if my thoughts are right.

I can see the graph and see your point. That's how a blower benefits over a turbo setup though, because the blower continues to make boost the higher you spin it, right?

Rxmfn7

Without trying to over-simplify it, usually a turbo will make power higher in the RPM range compared to a S/C. Now that being said, there are a huge amount of variables to take into consideration for each, size of the turbo (both compressor and exhaust housing A/Rs) and how much CFM the engine can suck in compared to how much air the turbo can push. A centrifigal S/C can be looked at as almost a belt-driven turbo, whereas usually a roots type blower (Maggies, for example), will have a high peak torque lower in the RPM range, but run out of steam up top. A Kenne Belle charger is capable of flowing more CFM at higher RPM being a twin screw design and more efficient than a roots. Not claiming to be an expert, just a quick rundown.

valdeztke

iTrader: (1)

I have a SC Z06. Thought about the TT....did research...and ended up with a SC.

1. Its not a "bolt on" by any means unlike Fastbird stated. Go and find his threads about his car and see how "bolt on" the kit was and helpful APS was. If it is your car I'm thinking of.

2. I like NOT being in boost everytime I want to run around on the street. I dont need 550RWTQ to kick me in the *** at 2,000 RPM so I spin my tires for 60 yrds and then have the system fall flat on its face @ 5500RPM. Id' rather the power roll on as the car has traction. Much more fun than just burning through rubber.

3. APS's kit has had PLENTY of troubles with large CI applications. Look at Richard's build (Brabus2) and some of the other guys. They've had to practically reconfigure APS's kit and replace the turbos as well. APS kept blowing smoke up my **** about the difficulties members were having with the kit and even shops that were installing the kits (on the C6) were having the same concerns. APS response "We'll other shops have found a way around it so should those that choose to not have our kit installed at an authorized dealer"


4. Plenty of heat around the engine and near my feet that adding a red hot turbo just doesnt sound like a good idea, especially with oil lines running all over the damn place.


I went with the new ATI kit. I love it! Great power from 2800rpm up, easily will push a 400CI motor or a forged motor down the road with the D1, self contained oil, great vendor support, great sound too!

Fastbird93

iTrader: (10)

1. You mis-quote me. I said bolt on as in "It's going to put out xxx amount of power" not as in "this is a bolt on installation." Hell, I'd NEVER say that ANYTHING is a direct bolt on installation.

2. Keep your foot out of it, drives just like stock. Just because you're accelerating doesn't mean you're always in boost. Admittedly, with as fast as the boost comes on, if the tires aren't warm and it's at the right spot, you'll break traction in a millisecond and even the traction control will be playing catch-up.

3. I mentioned this already, which is why I said that it is the perfect street kit, but the jury is still out on the big number applications. Brabus, SpeedyD, Vegasred all have setups, but not the claimed numbers. APS has stepped up to the plate big time so we'll see what that outcome is.

4. I have an Elite Engineering Thermal Abs tunnel plate and have noticed no extra cabin heat between that and the APS heat shielding.

I'll admit that the big number situation is going to be interesting to watch unfold, but I have my own ideas as to why the kits aren't throwing down huge numbers. I'm just keeping them to myself for the time being.

I'm not discouraging a Supercharger kit by any means. I just happen to be a bigger fan of the turbo kits because of the adjustability nad potential contained within. Heck, I'm in the midst of a LT1 Supercharger build right now. Best of both worlds!

valdeztke

iTrader: (1)

I've been down all the roads... the current path I'm on (ATI) is the best one I've liked thus far


The TT just wasnt enough for ye eh?

peter@aps

iTrader: (2)

Fastbird, Some interesting posts on this thread. Here is a dyno graph from a bone stock C5 ZO6 engine at 9 PSI............APS C5 twin turbo system tuned on 93 octane with high flow rear mufflers. I know that there will be a number of built/forged C5 engines combined with the C5 twin turbo system finshed shortly so it will be intersting to see the results from those cars.

Bottom line, it takes the right comp ratio, cyl head flow, cam spec, free flowing exhaust system, fuel octane, and engine tuning to produce high HP, get any of the above wrong and the power output will be limited to some degree.

Thanks,

Peter

alwaysinboost

so there you go.

you have responses and opinions from both sides of forced induction world. The choice is up to you, like I said in my first post, how do you want the power delivered.