Why do Corvettes always out MPH F-bodies?
#41
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Originally Posted by LS1LT1
No, even the heaviest F-body (say, a loaded Trans Am convertible) probably wouldn't weigh 600 pounds more than the lightest C5 (a base optioned Z06) but maybe close.
On average the weight differences between C5s and 4th gen F-body V8s was never as much as most thought they were, I would say 150 - 220 pounds max.
On average the weight differences between C5s and 4th gen F-body V8s was never as much as most thought they were, I would say 150 - 220 pounds max.
The C5 has a lower drag CF to. Makes a big difference above 100 mph.
#42
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Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
C5's are a bit lighter, I've seen stock C5 A4 cars go 13.0-1@108-111 when a Camaro SS A4 would go 13.1-3@106-108... My reccollection is that C5's can be around 3200, and F-Bodies are routinely 3400 and over. I think Z06's like mine are 3050 or something?
Originally Posted by drivinhard
The C5 Z06 really had no options to speak, they are all virtually the same weight (very minor weight differences, 01's having slightly (1.3 lb for all 4) wheels, no HUD, 4 cats instead of 2, etc. Z16 04's have the carbon fiber hood (10.8 lbs lighter). Shipping weight on the C5 Z with 3-4 gallons out of bowling green was 3040 lbs. F-body's ain't that light.
The C5 has a lower drag CF to. Makes a big difference above 100 mph.
The C5 has a lower drag CF to. Makes a big difference above 100 mph.
#44
Originally Posted by LS1LT1
Agreed, it's not at all unbelievable if you're talking about only a 1-2mph difference...but what if you saw say, a 6-7mph difference (granted, the gap usually isn't that much but there are cases showing this) between two otherwise similarly modified/weighted cars, the only difference being one is a C5 and the other a late model 4th gen F-body.
Certainly aerodynamics alone can't account for that much, can it?
Certainly aerodynamics alone can't account for that much, can it?
#45
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Originally Posted by tektrans
To me the answer is simple.
Cartek is just working on WAY too many vettes and not nearly enough F bodies as of late.
Cartek is just working on WAY too many vettes and not nearly enough F bodies as of late.
Their fastest H/C car is an F-Body
Their fastest turbo car will soon be an F-Body
Their fastest NA Stroker car will soon be an F-body
#46
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To the original poster:
Even though it's already been stated many times in this thread: aerodynamic advantage; plain and simple.
If you consider the top speed of a vehicle; the top speed of a vehicle and it's aerodynamics is going to play a far larger role than maximum horsepower will.
If you had an identical set-up and powered C5/C6/F-body (displacement, tranny, gearing etc.), the F-bodies top speed will be considerably lower than the 'Vettes.
Cross-sectional area is better on a Vette. CD is better on a Vette. As the speeds increase, even as low as 100 mph, the aerodynamics will start to effect mph between the two cars
I've also had real-world "crude" testing of high-speed aerodynamics between the two cars in question
Even though it's already been stated many times in this thread: aerodynamic advantage; plain and simple.
If you consider the top speed of a vehicle; the top speed of a vehicle and it's aerodynamics is going to play a far larger role than maximum horsepower will.
If you had an identical set-up and powered C5/C6/F-body (displacement, tranny, gearing etc.), the F-bodies top speed will be considerably lower than the 'Vettes.
Cross-sectional area is better on a Vette. CD is better on a Vette. As the speeds increase, even as low as 100 mph, the aerodynamics will start to effect mph between the two cars
I've also had real-world "crude" testing of high-speed aerodynamics between the two cars in question
#47
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Hey, I agree that the Vette has the Aero Dynamic advantage across the boards, no question. But if people start to pay attention, they will notice a difference greater than it should be. Remember that you have to be comparing cars from the same shop in similar weather etc...etc...
I have always noticed the higher MPH out of Vettes, but they are usually manuals 9 out of 10 times. Now I am starting to notice A4 Vettes going big MPH with similar (or exact) engines to a given f-body. With the ET's not being off as much (but still quicker)
Modified A4 C5 Vettes are getting more and more popular I have noticed.
There have always been a lot of A4 F-bodies.
This has been my observation. It is absolute.
I have always noticed the higher MPH out of Vettes, but they are usually manuals 9 out of 10 times. Now I am starting to notice A4 Vettes going big MPH with similar (or exact) engines to a given f-body. With the ET's not being off as much (but still quicker)
Modified A4 C5 Vettes are getting more and more popular I have noticed.
There have always been a lot of A4 F-bodies.
This has been my observation. It is absolute.
#48
Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01
Maybe that has something to do with the fact that GM has not made a Camaro/Firebird in 5 years and have made many many Vettes since then.
Their fastest H/C car is an F-Body
Their fastest turbo car will soon be an F-Body
Their fastest NA Stroker car will soon be an F-body
Their fastest H/C car is an F-Body
Their fastest turbo car will soon be an F-Body
Their fastest NA Stroker car will soon be an F-body
#49
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Hey, I agree that the Vette has the Aero Dynamic advantage across the boards, no question. But if people start to pay attention, they will notice a difference greater than it should be. Remember that you have to be comparing cars from the same shop in similar weather etc...etc...
I have always noticed the higher MPH out of Vettes, but they are usually manuals 9 out of 10 times. Now I am starting to notice A4 Vettes going big MPH with similar (or exact) engines to a given f-body. With the ET's not being off as much (but still quicker)
Modified A4 C5 Vettes are getting more and more popular I have noticed.
There have always been a lot of A4 F-bodies.
This has been my observation. It is absolute.
I have always noticed the higher MPH out of Vettes, but they are usually manuals 9 out of 10 times. Now I am starting to notice A4 Vettes going big MPH with similar (or exact) engines to a given f-body. With the ET's not being off as much (but still quicker)
Modified A4 C5 Vettes are getting more and more popular I have noticed.
There have always been a lot of A4 F-bodies.
This has been my observation. It is absolute.
Exact engines as a given Fbody? Really, they couldn't even do that in the old IROC races.
You're beating this horse to death Bro.
OK, maybe it's due to greater length of the primary tubes in Vette headers.
Or the better exhaust design...they all have true duals whereas not every Fbody does, most still retain the Y-pipe.
And comparing the dyno numbers a Vette puts down vs what an Fbody puts down does nothing since they have different rear end set-ups. So "exact" same RWHP doesn't mean anything in reality.
There are so many variables in the Y and F platforms that you can't have an "exact" comparison. You or I have NOT seen a Fbody that was identically prepared to a Vette cause it's nearly impossible.
The MPH comes from the Aerodynamics. There's your absolute.
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Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01
Maybe that has something to do with the fact that GM has not made a Camaro/Firebird in 5 years and have made many many Vettes since then.
Their fastest H/C car is an F-Body
Their fastest turbo car will soon be an F-Body
Their fastest NA Stroker car will soon be an F-body
Their fastest H/C car is an F-Body
Their fastest turbo car will soon be an F-Body
Their fastest NA Stroker car will soon be an F-body
And the engine in that F-body is not identical to the one in the similar Vette.
And that Turbo engine will be like nothing else ever installed by them before.
And that new NA motor will be new as well.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peepers
Exact engines as a given Fbody? Really, they couldn't even do that in the old IROC races.
You're beating this horse to death Bro.
OK, maybe it's due to greater length of the primary tubes in Vette headers.
Or the better exhaust design...they all have true duals whereas not every Fbody does, most still retain the Y-pipe.
And comparing the dyno numbers a Vette puts down vs what an Fbody puts down does nothing since they have different rear end set-ups. So "exact" same RWHP doesn't mean anything in reality.
There are so many variables in the Y and F platforms that you can't have an "exact" comparison. You or I have NOT seen a Fbody that was identically prepared to a Vette cause it's nearly impossible.
The MPH comes from the Aerodynamics. There's your absolute.
You're beating this horse to death Bro.
OK, maybe it's due to greater length of the primary tubes in Vette headers.
Or the better exhaust design...they all have true duals whereas not every Fbody does, most still retain the Y-pipe.
And comparing the dyno numbers a Vette puts down vs what an Fbody puts down does nothing since they have different rear end set-ups. So "exact" same RWHP doesn't mean anything in reality.
There are so many variables in the Y and F platforms that you can't have an "exact" comparison. You or I have NOT seen a Fbody that was identically prepared to a Vette cause it's nearly impossible.
The MPH comes from the Aerodynamics. There's your absolute.
But If you had seen what I have seen you would be saying the same thing.
I have been at this game for years & years.
If a car is making XXX amount of rear wheel HP what difference does it make what the drive train losses are???
We are not talking Crank HP?
As long as the area under the curve is the same.
(which they are in my observations)
Exact and Identical are relative terms, for the case of this discussion we are talking a ten RWHP difference or less. Same track, Same day, Same converter, same tuners, equal weights etc etc... Yet F-bodies are always down significantly on MPH. (and usually ET) F-body vs Vette. Absolute.
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Originally Posted by Justin00SS
Your comparing apples to oranges.
Why is it that to guys with same year z28s, same heads, same cam, ect ect and yet one guy breaks into the 11s while the other is stuck at 12.1
Even switching out drivers.
There are a lot of high mph f-bodies out there and aerodynamics is probably it. Maybe the vettes are more stable at the higher speeds. Otherwise f-bodies are imo better suited for drag racing than vettes.
All said though as long as the et is low why car about mph unless you are roll racing.
Why is it that to guys with same year z28s, same heads, same cam, ect ect and yet one guy breaks into the 11s while the other is stuck at 12.1
Even switching out drivers.
There are a lot of high mph f-bodies out there and aerodynamics is probably it. Maybe the vettes are more stable at the higher speeds. Otherwise f-bodies are imo better suited for drag racing than vettes.
All said though as long as the et is low why car about mph unless you are roll racing.
when I had LTs , lid and a aluminum fw. I was trapping a high MPH. 8.1 @ 90 mph with a 2.0 and high 1.9 60's !!!
now Im doing 8.0 @ 88 mph and I have a moser 12 bolt, 3.73s, suspension for road racing and underdrive pulley.
due to more weight and more RWHP being lost Im doing bad, but the underdrive pulley and 3.73 gearing should have made up for that, if not more. Plus Im cutting 1.79 60's now and still doing only 8.0s @ 88 mph. WTF?
#53
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Just like the title reads.
This may have been covered before, but I have not seen it.
I am used to seeing 6-speed ZO6 Corvettes with H&C going high 120's and low 130's (usually in good air, doesn't have to be great but good)
But now I am seeing more and more A4 Vettes (C5 guys are getting smarter) with great MPH in OK to poor air?
Now I have always known that the C5 is a little more aerodynamic, but that is only good for 1 to 2 MPH tops. It is also only going to take serious effect from the 1/8th to the finish line. So what gives?
All things being equal the C5 always has significant MPH over the F-body.
Same tranny, gears, converter, RWHP, shop, everything the same.
Let me add, same weight too.
Can anyone explain why?
This may have been covered before, but I have not seen it.
I am used to seeing 6-speed ZO6 Corvettes with H&C going high 120's and low 130's (usually in good air, doesn't have to be great but good)
But now I am seeing more and more A4 Vettes (C5 guys are getting smarter) with great MPH in OK to poor air?
Now I have always known that the C5 is a little more aerodynamic, but that is only good for 1 to 2 MPH tops. It is also only going to take serious effect from the 1/8th to the finish line. So what gives?
All things being equal the C5 always has significant MPH over the F-body.
Same tranny, gears, converter, RWHP, shop, everything the same.
Let me add, same weight too.
Can anyone explain why?
#56
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I don't have the time to refute everyone of your statements.
But If you had seen what I have seen you would be saying the same thing.
I have been at this game for years & years.
If a car is making XXX amount of rear wheel HP what difference does it make what the drive train losses are???
We are not talking Crank HP?
As long as the area under the curve is the same.
(which they are in my observations)
Exact and Identical are relative terms, for the case of this discussion we are talking a ten RWHP difference or less. Same track, Same day, Same converter, same tuners, equal weights etc etc... Yet F-bodies are always down significantly on MPH. (and usually ET) F-body vs Vette. Absolute.
But If you had seen what I have seen you would be saying the same thing.
I have been at this game for years & years.
If a car is making XXX amount of rear wheel HP what difference does it make what the drive train losses are???
We are not talking Crank HP?
As long as the area under the curve is the same.
(which they are in my observations)
Exact and Identical are relative terms, for the case of this discussion we are talking a ten RWHP difference or less. Same track, Same day, Same converter, same tuners, equal weights etc etc... Yet F-bodies are always down significantly on MPH. (and usually ET) F-body vs Vette. Absolute.
Well in your absolute observations there are still some holes. A chassis dyno doesn't take into account certain things. For one, almost all dyno runs are done with the hood open. What happens when they do a run with the hood closed? Cars make less power. What if the Vette loses less than the fbody?They also don't take into account the added power given by a cold air/ram air setup because the car is stationary. You're putting too much emphasis on dyno numbers. It's a 3 second one gear run on something that, if you're using a dynojet, doesn't even load the engine as hard as the same run on the street would.
Same torque converter means nothing because although both may have the same rated stall it doesn't make them idenical. One might be more efficient than the other even if they're both manufactured by the same company.
Have you also considered the fact that the vette has a much better flowing air intake than the fbody? Not gonna see the full effect of that on the dyno.
So once again bro, no such thing as two identical or even as similarly prepared cars when comparing 2 different platforms.
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Originally Posted by Spankyspank
Well in your absolute observations there are still some holes. A chassis dyno doesn't take into account certain things. For one, almost all dyno runs are done with the hood open. What happens when they do a run with the hood closed? Cars make less power. What if the Vette loses less than the fbody?They also don't take into account the added power given by a cold air/ram air setup because the car is stationary. You're putting too much emphasis on dyno numbers. It's a 3 second one gear run on something that, if you're using a dynojet, doesn't even load the engine as hard as the same run on the street would.
Originally Posted by Spankyspank
Same torque converter means nothing because although both may have the same rated stall it doesn't make them idenical. One might be more efficient than the other even if they're both manufactured by the same company. .
Originally Posted by Spankyspank
Have you also considered the fact that the vette has a much better flowing air intake than the fbody? Not gonna see the full effect of that on the dyno..
I have since purchased and installed a SS Ram Air for my Camaro, I am going to see what kind of difference it makes?
Originally Posted by Spankyspank
So once again bro, no such thing as two identical or even as similarly prepared cars when comparing 2 different platforms.
A blind man can see, that when you factor in all that you can, that the Vette is almost always faster and thus usually quicker than the f-body.
I am just trying to figure out Why?
Thank you for your contributions, you are thinking down the same roads I am.