ssvincels1

come on gimme the #'s, you have to have taken her to the track to see what she'll do by now.
vince(waiting for those 225's)

PREDATOR-Z

Results maybe dissapointing

AINT SKEERED

iTrader: (2)

A year from now you will be bragging on your times with these heads

PREDATOR-Z

sure, just like the LT1's right??

Ed Curtis

You probably won't see Tony doing much posting here any more...

After the last "flame fest" from some ungrateful (and totally uninformed) forum readers, AFR will just let their dealers sell the product and present the results as they wish.

I thought this site was different from the 'stang sites but it's pretty much the same. A few idiots always ruin it for the others who thirst for knowledge...

Ed

SouthFL.02.SS

We are the "uninformed" masses (because we all don't have degrees in mechanical engineering or specialize in airflow dynamics).
We have money to purchase new products.
We like to be told that a product will come to market on X date and we will have money in hand waiting for it.

Many of us have had money in hand so long waiting for a certain product that we have images of dead presidents soaked into our palms.

The AFR heads look to be an excellent product. Most, if not all of us wish AFR the best of luck in selling their heads, and something tells me they won't need any luck to accomplish that, as their product will speak for itself.

EDC, I'm glad you consider yourself "informed" by trade and by education.

J-Rod

I'm with Ed on this. I woudn't be suprised if you didn't see anything else.

Too many knuckle-heads...

Here is a thread that may be of interest though. Tony ran the car at LACR at the WCCC.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=806185

Keep in mind that there will be a correction factor not only for the elevation of 2700ft, but also for the extremely positive DA.

http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/nh...on_factors.php

McRat

I was supposed to be at that race, but my car in the shop getting a rollbar.

Anyways, reading the thread (I'm banned from Corvette Forum for posting tech content) you notice that almost immediately someone says "THOSE TIMES SUCK".

The truth is, those times DON'T suck. Subtract a 1/2 second and add 4 mph. Bone stock Z06's run about 107-8mph there.

I'm not on anyone's "side", but sometimes guys on this board act like a bunch little girls when someone tries to post tech content. It's the #1 issue with this board. Tell what YOU know about a specific issue, and ask REAL questions. "Why do you suck?", is not a real question.

McRat

Doing a little math...

My car is about 150lb lighter, it has a best MPH 111 there this time of year. It makes 375rwhp.
His effective HP is about 15+50+375 = 440rwhp. Whether there are extenuating circumstances (said his 3/4 shift is weak) I can't say. I would say not bad for a first effort.

Racehead

The people who were flaming away in a previous thread were simply needlessly abrasive. They could choose to ask their questions in a friendlier fashion, it would yield the same information and probably more since Tony would be more apt to expand upon his answers, but instead they choose an abrasive, adversarial method of asking their questions. It's just how some people feel they have to be. Too bad they don't realize that they're shooting themselves in the foot. Ya don't see him here now do you ?

Do you want good reliable info ? Then help to make Tony WANT to stay here and answer questions. How do people expect to get good information when they keep chasing the messinger away with insults and abrasive comments ? Tony doesn't have to come here at all, make him WANT to. That pretty much means comments like " oh sure just like the LT1 heads huh ? " are out. Why would anybody even say that when there's no way to know if it's true or not. They aren't out yet. Shall we insult him just in case it MIGHT be true ?? Let's see some growing up here. This is NOT the other LS1 site, lets quit acting like them.

Ed Curtis

...and I'm glad you have shown your true colors with your typical "negative" posts...

Ever think that "you" may be the person with the problem?? Hell no...

BTW... just 'cause you have money in your pocket doesn't mean people have to jump through hoops for you....

Ed

verbs

Although I agree with what's being said here about the abrasiveness of some, I don't think the people here are asking too much. A few small bits of information would help quell the masses.

1. Before and after dyno #'s with JUST A HEAD SWAP. All of the dynos we've been told about so far have been before and after dynos of multiple parts at the same time, which makes it impossible to determine the gains from the heads alone which is what most of us want to know.

2. Flow #'s. Now I know flow #'s don't tell the whole story, and velocity is a key ingredient as well, many people here use flow #'s as a means to compare heads. The velocity prowess would be shown via great low end power on the dyno with these heads.

3. Track times before and after heads at the same track with the same driver. Again, not a horrible chore, but we have nothing to base this test AFR car against!! Again, making comparisons against cars of different weights, gearing, power, and drivers is not a good comparison.

4. Maybe an independent flow and dyno of these heads as well.

IMO, although people may feel that the manufacturers shouldn't have the responsibility of quelling the masses I feel that the manufacturers/sellers brought it on to themselves by generating a lot of hype for this product before they had any solid #'s to give anyone, before all the testing was done, and more importantly before they even had a ballpark for when this product would come out. I can't even count how many times the "ready to ship" date has been pushed back.

What I'm seeing is the combination of all the hype and marketing from some of the manufacturers combined with very VERY long delays and a lack of information putting a sour taste in some people's mouths, especially those who have been told to "save their money or wait until these heads will be finished because it'll be more than worth it."

Cartek told me they have stroker motors for customers that have been sitting in their shop idle for months just waiting for these heads to come out, and that was probably 4 months ago!!! Had these heads been out anywhere near when we were told they would be out, I'd be sporting them myself; instead, I went with a set of TEA stg. 2.5 LS6 heads. Although these heads are "alomst ready," I've been hearing that for the last 6 months.

In sum I think there should be a few lessons taken out of this entire scenario.

1. Manufacturers/marketers- do some research and find out ahead of time what kind of information your target market is looking for. A simple poll of "what information would you like to see regarding our heads during the testing process" would have sufficed I'm sure.

2. You can overhype/overmarket a product too soon....especially when combined with numerous production date pushbacks.

Racehead

Verbs,
I agree with everything you've said. I also think that we should be asking lots of questions and expecting answers. My whole point was that if your rude and insulting don't be surprised if Tony leaves and doesn't come back. There must be 100 ways of asking the same question ... why not choose a polite way of asking even the most direct and blunt of questions if it will mean the answer might be more forthcoming ?? Getting the anwer your looking for is more important than venting your frustrations isn't it ( not you personally, but people in general ) ??

Spinmonster

I am in agreement also Verbs. I couldn't have said it better.

I was one of the burn victims with the LT1's. That being said however, I admit being too abrasive on the topic. I welcomed the arrival of the LSx manifold for the sole reason that the hype ended when guys got the typical 10hp or so from it. I was just annoyed at the hype surrounding how great the AFR's were gonna be as far back as the CAD design existed without a single test peice. i was thinking to myself how it was a repeat in the making. I think there should be plenty of bragging after you accomplish not when an idea is conceived.

I would like to say one thing in AFR's defense (never thought I would defend them..LOL). I was contacted by AFR after my last flame post and was impressed with the mature business approach that was afforded me. It wasn't a fight but rather what they could do to help me and themselves provide a better situation. The company did present themselves with the type of feedback that is solution seeking and not reputation damage control.

I would definitely buy the product but there are some areas of testing I suggested as VERBS has mentioned that would put the engineering minded buyers to rest. I would love for these heads to get me 15-20rwhp over my current S2 ported LS6's. If they do, I will be a buyer.
Maybe as McRAT says: we sould be a little more selective with our posts and keep in mind that companies like AFR and FAST are raising the bar little by little even though we want it when we want it and that isn't going to sit with impatient people so comfortably. Sorry I whined like a school girl.

PREDATOR-Z

Polite question

Why were the heads not tested alone as a swap. Stock motor VS stock motor + AFR heads????????

How can we expect to see results of the product itself?

Not a package that enhances and distorts and leaves a lot to immagination.

Scepticism is not shameful, it is wisdom.

I guess some of us will wait for some "guinea pig". Dishing out $$2600.00 just to find out that it makes 5>10 horses more than a ported Patriot would me off.

CHRISPY

I understand Tony's reasoning completely but I think it would be a real shame if he stopped posting here.

One thing is for sure if the products really works you'll soon hear about it in the pits and see it on the track.

AFR isn't obligated in any way to jump through hoops and perform specific tests at peoples whim on this forum. I think it is great that he even gets on this site and tells us the information that he has.

They have marketing and advertising to promote the product and people/racers in the field to test and show everyone how it works. I am sure you'll see results in various magazines and TV shows soon enough.

I think a few people on this site need to smarten up and get with the real world here.

Chris

z98

No he's not, but companies advertise for a reason. This site is full of customers. If we have solid proof, we buy. Word gets out, AFR makes money.

Not providing us with the information we need to effectively compare will only result in less purchases until word gets out on how good these heads are.

Information cannot hurt a company unless they aren't providing it for a reason.

I think we'll find out everything we need to know VERY soon.

And then the 225's will be here, which will probably silence even the most moronic internet critics once and for all.

02Reaper

iTrader: (2)

I think companies need to step back and look at why they even exist today. It is the customer that keeps them in business. Keep your customers happy and they will keep you happy. Hell, Its not like AFR is the only place that is doing heads, neither are all of the other businesses. Who is the best? a lot of them are really good, and I dont think any one company can be labled the best in this situation. Not everyone is going to like your product, if we all liked the same things, then this world would be just boring. So, keep playing your customers if you want too. They will eventually go somewhere else. Without your customers, your business is nonexistant.

02Reaper

iTrader: (2)

And one more thing. If you post that a product is supposed to be out by a certain time, then it is YOUR obligation to have it out by then. If you can't, then keep your damn mouth and FALSE advertisements shut.

CHRISPY

Tony has gotten track results (good ones from the altitude and track) and I am sure more information will be posted soon.