BigTex

iTrader: (16)

I've been wondering the same thing. How about the other 3 cars with the same package? One had trans issues, but what about the other two?

sr71bb

iTrader: (3)

Cracker,

What were the baseline numbers on the absolutely stock setup??? Do you have those???? IMO you are missing 20-30 HP somewhere, I know the motor has very little mileage on it but did you do a leakdown test???? How about running ATAP to make sure you are getting full timing at all rpm levels and to confirm your A/F ratio. I know this sounds silly, but if you dynoed with very little gas, the computer will pull timing out automatically so if that was the case then it's possible you could lose 20-30 HP. MOST LS1's like 28.5 maximum timing BTW. Anyway post back if you have any of this info.

Z O SICK

iTrader: (1)

Not too bad at all! give you car another 5,000 miles and it will dyno much higher IMO.

OBSSSD

The car put down 340rwhp through manifolds stock before the heads/cam/pulley.

The shop has done several cars with the Patriot 6.0L heads and bigger cams:

2002 Z06 M6 with 234/240 XE-R cam 440/404
2001 C5 A4 coupe with 228/228 XE-R cam 380/400
1998 Z28 M6 with 232/236 XE cam 399/380
1998 TA A4 with 228/228 XE-R cam 360/380
2002 TA A4 with 234/240 XE-R cam 370/400


All the cars were tuned dead flat at 13.0:1 with 28-30 degrees timing which was confirmed on every single pull with a Tech 2 tool. Above are the best runs from each car and frankly they all tell me the same thing - which is the Patriot's are average Stage II heads at best. Myself - I wish I would have spent a little extra and went with GTP. If there's anything I've learned with heads it's don't go cheap there.

I'm not even going to discuss certain customers getting "special" heads that somehow run insane numbers so that everyone else will order the regular ones that will never put out those kind of numbers. Then when the numbers suck it is always "did you check ABC etc..." I've tuned 150 cars anbd seen every type of head there is and the only one that performs every single time as advertised is GTP.

I'll be taking the Patriots off and seeling them to someone else with a pipe dream of running 450rwhp with a 6 speed car

BTW, everything checked out perfectly on the car in this thread but the bottom line is that the Patriots lost several hp over a Stage I 5.3L head when bolted in with a Thunder 224 cam. Frankly I wasn't suprised at the end results after that happened. Peace out and be careful what you believe...

gomer

iTrader: (13)

Well, I guess I'm just full of **** then aren't I?? Or maybe I got a couple sets of those "special" heads. I still think something "fishy" is going on with those setups you have done.. But once again, my opinion only.

Heck, I made 416rwhp 392rwtq on my car with a TR220 and some stage II 5.3 patriot heads and MAFT tuning before going to the setup I have now.

sr71bb

iTrader: (3)

I haven't flowed them yet but I will (PP 6.0 heads). I will post back the numbers in about a week or so. I know I myself got 417 RWHP and 410 TQ on a STOCK headed F1 cammed car, 6 speed, with stock rear end and bottom end (347 CI). This was on a 2000SS. A decent set of heads SHOULD give you about 35 HP over a STOCK set of heads. The reason I say this is a STOCK LS6 head will give you about 15-20 HP over a stock LS1 head.

Usually when numbers are lower than expected there is something wrong with the combination and not necessarily the individual components. I guess what I am saying is your combo SHOULD be putting out more power. Quite frankly I have NOT been too impressed with those XE cams. There are a few other cams that are putting up much better numbers especially NA. Speedtek F1 cam, MMT's M2 cam, LG's G5 cam for example. We have numeorus examples of 440+ HP numbers down here as you know.

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

From what I can see of these numbers, I hope there is a wide variaty of boltons between these cars. Some of your cars with bigger cams are making less power than some with smaller cams, then some with the same cams are 70 rwhp apart. I know A4's suck up a little power, but the C5's driveline should take up some of the diffrence.

Z O SICK

iTrader: (1)

Man i need to get rid of this crapmaster lol.. Gomer, i talked to corsa and they "might" send me a new muffler. Lets hope so. I will be in the 44X's-45X's after that i hope.

Tony

gomer

iTrader: (13)

Tony, your car WILL make over 450rwhp with a cutout, that flowmaster is killing it.

Back to OBSSSD's car... I'm really anxious to see who's heads he runs next and kinda numbers it makes then, with the heads being the only change.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

OBSSD,

Did you flow test any of the Pats with intake and without before installing? Just wondering what the flow numbers were.

TVWilkes

There is no "special" set of heads.

niphilli

Judging from the posts I have read lately I would check:

1. All ignition stuff (make sure all of the coil packs are attached and working, plugs, wires..)
2. Lifters- These days a few have posted suspicions of lifters collapsing
3. Rockers/Valvesprings- The upper end of your dyno graph looks like float, and others have posted some strange things about YT rockers.
4. Leak down-

On a side note is there any KR in your tune? There are no cats on the car are there?

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Any of the cars above have stock rockers on them?

WOT

iTrader: (1)

so where are you at with the troubleshooting? what has been checked lately?

Chicago Z06

looking at the graph the ignition is fine, the graph does take a dive up top and that could be springs... the other things are how much timing is in the car and... well hate to say it............ this is a PROVEN combination.... the heads are most likely the culprit... i did my own swap and used pretty much a mail order tune and got 445 with a baby x2.....

Chicago Z06

my dyno graph

TVWilkes

Chris,
If you find the heads are the problem,I will be more than happy to swap them for another set.I will work with you to find out what the problem is.

OBSSSD

Guys - let's get something straight here. Terry at Patriot has been very respectful and polite with me the entire time - even though the heads took much longer than he originally promised. All the cars had ported TB's, lids, no cats, LT's, true duals, you name it maxed out with the bolt ons.

But I'm telling you straight up there aren't any issues with any of the cars and I'm sick and tired of defending myself against stupid claims. The mechanic doing this had done 100 LS1/LS6 head swaps and everything was done perfect every time. Every car 28-30 degrees timing with no knock ever, ever car at 13.0:1 A/F, every car had no compression problems, no rocker arm or lifter problems including geometry.

This isn't rocket science folks. Our group has as much or more ability than anyone in the country when it comes to install and tuning LS1's. Bottom line the Patriot heads have underperformed against Absolute Stage II, MTI Stage I's, and barely equaled stock LS6 heads in all the cases I've seen. Now maybe the heads we installed were not as good as the others that Patriot is turning out - but if so why has that happened?

So what happens if I buy a set of GTP heads - bolt them up - and then pick up 20hp? Who's going to reimbuse me for all the time, labor, and parts for all these customer's cars? I don't know what to do at this point - I'll probably call Terry and discuss this with him this week. I'm, not bashing Patriot but at this point a lot of people are ordering heads based upon the dyno numbers of a select few people.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything here but there are some questionable things to say the least in this saga. Stay tuned...

Chris

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

A guy down the street from me ordered the Stage 2 LS-6's and the X-3 combo. He is no speacial customer. No diffrent than you or me. His car made 445 rwhp through a A4, 4200 stall, and a 12-bolt. With NO tune and rich as hell from adding SVO 30lbers' with NO tune, the car ran a 11.10@ 120mph. If all the above cars where pretty much equally matched, why are there so many variances in the dyno numbers? The ZO6 that made 445 also seems to be right where it needs to be. I'm still confused. I'm not bashing the workmanship or tuning abilities at all. Personally I'd like to get with you about tuning my car when it is finished, but why so many variances between cars that are equally matched.

LASTLS1

iTrader: (7)

So when are you going to switch the heads (only the heads) and prove your point? There has been plenty of time! Whats taking so LONG? We're waiting. Thanks.