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Back to Back Dyno Test PI 215s & Ai CNCd GM 5.3

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Old 08-12-2011, 01:04 PM   #21
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I'm so torn between TEA and AI for sending my 243's off to have a max effort port program run on them. Honestly I could flip a coin and be happy with either. I originally built my motor for boost, but since I bought a 25.5 99 Camaro, I'm keeping my GTO NA plus a small shot. So my inconel valved 317's are going to be replaced by 243's to bump my compression to 11.3-11.5 and have higher flow potential for an NA motor.
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Old 08-12-2011, 02:28 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by 96capricemgr View Post
Probably just missed it in the long post.
oops, sorry op!

reading comprehension > me
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Old 08-12-2011, 03:07 PM   #23
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So if I make it out right the comparo was "same tuner,
best result" and not "same tune". Perhaps one head or
the other liked different timing, fueling? What kind of
tune changes across the swap?

Wondering if more than airflow is involved (say, spooky
"quench" stuff or whatever).
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jimmyblue View Post
So if I make it out right the comparo was "same tuner,
best result" and not "same tune". Perhaps one head or
the other liked different timing, fueling? What kind of
tune changes across the swap?

Wondering if more than airflow is involved (say, spooky
"quench" stuff or whatever).
Phil aka Bluecat would have to comment on that, as I am a pharmacist and certainly not a tuner. I will say this in terms of being honest. This was not a magazine comparison. I didn't desire to make things fair for comparisons sake, it just happened that way. Phils job was to make as much power safely with the PI heads (If the setup would have made 500rwhp I would have had no reason to gone to a 2nd set of heads). When the combo made realistic power (and not the super duper crazy numbers like you see posted on here once a week), I started looking elsewhere. So I would say that the tune files were similar, as airflow may have been "ballpark" similar. But he sure didn't sandbag with one to make the other look better (and I'm sure that is not what you are inferring). I am just a regular guy, who was paying a tuner to tune his car. I was paying him to tune my car and obviously try to make really good power, while keeping it reasonably safe. One could infer his "tuning style" is the constant here, he would use the same technique and philosophy with the PI head as he would the AI head, not for research purposes but just because that is the way he tunes. If one head likes more fuel or timing, he doesn't give it more because he is being unfair, he gives it more because that is what the head wants...the head on that pull made more power, and didn't spark knock or go lean etc. Its not his fault in that senario that one head or the other did x or z, the argument there, would be if the head was a more efficient head or whatever variable of head technology we are talking about then it would have responded by making more power. Obviously changing the cam would/could change all this, but that was the constant...I didn't want to change the cam or go bigger, whereby drivability may deteriorate.

Again, this is and X and Y comparison, but I didn't necessarily design it that way....Like Mag comparisons where they don't change the tune...I see no point in that...as in a real world situation who is going to keep the tune the same if they change heads...you're gonna tune the car to what it wants, otherwise we'd all just run canned tunes and be done with it. And if a head makes more power, it just makes more power....if the other head was better it would have been the one to make more power...its not like the tuner can magically make a part just conjure up 50 extra hp because you want it to.

I hope this makes sense. In hindsight we just wanted to report what we found, it just so happens it looks like a technical mag comparison...I just think this is more realistic to what other forum members would do, thus making this 1) more applicable and 2) less biased than a Mag comparison...LOL cause no one paid for any of this stuff for me...just ask my wife she still hasn't quit raggin on me.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:21 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmd View Post
Phil aka Bluecat would have to comment on that, as I am a pharmacist and certainly not a tuner. I will say this in terms of being honest. This was not a magazine comparison. I didn't desire to make things fair for comparisons sake, it just happened that way. Phils job was to make as much power safely with the PI heads (If the setup would have made 500rwhp I would have had no reason to gone to a 2nd set of heads). When the combo made realistic power (and not the super duper crazy numbers like you see posted on here once a week), I started looking elsewhere. So I would say that the tune files were similar, as airflow may have been "ballpark" similar. But he sure didn't sandbag with one to make the other look better (and I'm sure that is not what you are inferring). I am just a regular guy, who was paying a tuner to tune his car. I was paying him to tune my car and obviously try to make really good power, while keeping it reasonably safe. One could infer his "tuning style" is the constant here, he would use the same technique and philosophy with the PI head as he would the AI head, not for research purposes but just because that is the way he tunes. If one head likes more fuel or timing, he doesn't give it more because he is being unfair, he gives it more because that is what the head wants...the head on that pull made more power, and didn't spark knock or go lean etc. Its not his fault in that senario that one head or the other did x or z, the argument there, would be if the head was a more efficient head or whatever variable of head technology we are talking about then it would have responded by making more power. Obviously changing the cam would/could change all this, but that was the constant...I didn't want to change the cam or go bigger, whereby drivability may deteriorate.

Again, this is and X and Y comparison, but I didn't necessarily design it that way....Like Mag comparisons where they don't change the tune...I see no point in that...as in a real world situation who is going to keep the tune the same if they change heads...you're gonna tune the car to what it wants, otherwise we'd all just run canned tunes and be done with it. And if a head makes more power, it just makes more power....if the other head was better it would have been the one to make more power...its not like the tuner can magically make a part just conjure up 50 extra hp because you want it to.

I hope this makes sense. In hindsight we just wanted to report what we found, it just so happens it looks like a technical mag comparison...I just think this is more realistic to what other forum members would do, thus making this 1) more applicable and 2) less biased than a Mag comparison...LOL cause no one paid for any of this stuff for me...just ask my wife she still hasn't quit raggin on me.


You're a good man for doing this. Like I said in an earlier post, this really helps out us guys who don't have deep pockets to see that you don't necessarily have to buy the most expensive heads to make more power. Also, would you mind sending me a PM on what the total cost ended up being to have AI port those heads for you?
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:26 PM   #26
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Great and informative thread! Glad your combo finally came together and that you're happy with the end product, OP.
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Old 08-13-2011, 04:53 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Rise of the Phoenix View Post
You're a good man for doing this. Like I said in an earlier post, this really helps out us guys who don't have deep pockets to see that you don't necessarily have to buy the most expensive heads to make more power. Also, would you mind sending me a PM on what the total cost ended up being to have AI port those heads for you?
http://www.advancedinduction.com/LSX...cGM706Head.php

Pricing, pics, etc.

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Originally Posted by jimmyblue View Post
So if I make it out right the comparo was "same tuner,
best result" and not "same tune". Perhaps one head or
the other liked different timing, fueling? What kind of
tune changes across the swap?

Wondering if more than airflow is involved (say, spooky
"quench" stuff or whatever).
Same gasket, so quench should have been the same. Insofar as tuning, I can tell you that Phil (the other phil - bluecat) sent me the entire directory for Brad's run files and the previous setup had nearly 3x as much dyno time put into getting it right (15 or 17 drf files + street time vs. 6 drf files w/ our head). It wouldn't make sense to run the exact same calibration since we're looking for max potential with both heads to accurately compare them.

In the end, it is more the fact that the engine doesn't run on flow #'s, and the difference is likely attributable to our head having a more favorable size, rate of change, and the quality of the machine work.

Here's a graph w/ A/F for both setups - you can see it is so close as to be identical for both setups. Were bluecat inclined to put another 10-15 pulls into the setup w/ our heads I suspect he could have gotten a few more #'s out of it. That isn't really fruitful though, and bluecat is more concerned w/ calibrating it such that he feels it is safe than he is eeking out another few hp.



Glad you guys like it!

-Phil
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Old 08-13-2011, 05:02 PM   #28
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AI,

Do you guys have a 243 program that is max effort that would go well with the engine in my sig? I would like to raise compression to around 11.0-11.5. Whatever you guys think I can get away with on 91 octane.
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:37 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by TurboAv View Post
AI,

Do you guys have a 243 program that is max effort that would go well with the engine in my sig? I would like to raise compression to around 11.0-11.5. Whatever you guys think I can get away with on 91 octane.
We have a couple larger options that essentially max out the 243 for 400cid+ or high RPM builds. Looking at your signature I believe we're chatting via email now.

Thanks!

-Phil
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:46 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Advanced Induction View Post
We have a couple larger options that essentially max out the 243 for 400cid+ or high RPM builds. Looking at your signature I believe we're chatting via email now.

Thanks!

-Phil
Yup! I'll get the heads sent off to you guys at the middle of next month. It will be interesting to see how going from 10.3:1 with my WCCH stage 2 317's to 11.4:1 and your max effort 243 heads will change the power curve. It will also give me a chance to race the car as it sits now and have some track comparisons as well.
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:12 AM   #31
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Hey Pharmd, we chatted in PM's in the past, and I knew you weren't happy with your setup. Glad to see you got it worked out and happy.

Take care.
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Old 08-26-2011, 12:26 PM   #32
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I can honestly say Phil/Bluecat put the same effort into the AI heads as he did the PI heads...I was there at the garage for both tuning and dynoing of the car in both situations. The budget minded AI heads made more power everywhere over the high dollar PI heads, as seen on the graph. Not changing the tune when swapping heads would be as retarded as not changing tunes when swapping cams...no two porters are ever the same and there will be differences in what the car needs to run "right" when you change important parts like this.

One thing that I really feel is shitty, is that the original vender that sold pharmd on the PI heads, also jerked his chain about his cam. They told him it was custom ground to match the heads...its an off the shelf Comp LSR cam...i am not gonna give the specs because if pharmd didnt, he doesnt want anyone to know...but it is actually an off the shelf cam, and not a custom super cam designed for either head...making the comparo that much more reliable.

I got to ride in the car during the final tuning where Phil/Bluecat checks to make sure everything is spot on and the car is a beast!! It looks great, runs great, sounds great...very nice car/setup.
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:31 PM   #33
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moe, the only comment I will make about the cam, is sometimes if an 'off-the-shelf-cam' works, then there's no reason to go with a custom ground cam.

I was upgrading from 9 year old, hand ported 853 heads to the PI heads and was happy with my results. Could I have gotten more by going with a set of AI heads, maybe, but now that I'm supercharged, having the thicker decks on the PI heads is a good thing in my book.
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:53 AM   #34
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moe, the only comment I will make about the cam, is sometimes if an 'off-the-shelf-cam' works, then there's no reason to go with a custom ground cam.
And you missed the point....I never said a custom grind is better in any situation than an off the shelf, I said they told him it was a custom grind specific to his heads and gave him an off the shelf cam. I call that misleading the customer.

There are quite a few excellent off the shelf cams, and honestly I like the cam he has alot...but its definitely not a custom grind and they definitely lied about it. Thats all I was saying...

I never said anything derrogatory about PI's heads...they made good power...just not as good as the AI's and I am sorry if I tell things how they are and don't sugar coat to be nice...If you tell someone that you custom spec'd their cam, and then actually did not, I view that as dishonest. Thats all I was pointing out...I dont care who likes them or how many people swing from their nuts on here...the truth is the truth.
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Old 08-27-2011, 09:19 AM   #35
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I'm not arguing with you Moe, I bought my heads/cam from the same vendor and talked extensively about cam selection with them. I wasn't told it was a 'custom grind' but I was told that it was a cam they had spec'd for them by Comp and had done an extensive amount of testing with it with the PI heads. Is that something I beleive, sure, knowing the body of work that both PI and the vendor have done, I could definitely see Comp making a grind for them and then selling it later on.

Pharmd and I talked back and forth a lot because we were only a few people on this board with the PI small bore heads. I knew he was unhappy, or let me rephase that, I knew he wasn't completely satisfied. I dyno'd my car prior to the swap, and with hand ported 853's with a tr224 cam, they gave me a dyno sheet reading 468rwhp and 460 rwtq (corrected). I didn't beleive it at all, so I never bothered dyno'ing my car after the swap. I did look at countless numbers of logs of airflow, acceleration rates, fueling, timing, etc, and saw a nice gain from the swap. How much, who knows.

I'm just happy to hear Pharmd is now satisfied, and it looks like AI puts out a damn good product.
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Old 08-31-2011, 11:09 AM   #36
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Yup! I'll get the heads sent off to you guys at the middle of next month. It will be interesting to see how going from 10.3:1 with my WCCH stage 2 317's to 11.4:1 and your max effort 243 heads will change the power curve. It will also give me a chance to race the car as it sits now and have some track comparisons as well.
The curve should move upward.

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moe, the only comment I will make about the cam, is sometimes if an 'off-the-shelf-cam' works, then there's no reason to go with a custom ground cam.

I was upgrading from 9 year old, hand ported 853 heads to the PI heads and was happy with my results. Could I have gotten more by going with a set of AI heads, maybe, but now that I'm supercharged, having the thicker decks on the PI heads is a good thing in my book.
The overwhelming majority are selling the same lobes as custom grinds etc. It won't make enough difference to matter to change cams unless the new grind is appreciably different. Technically we don't know precisely what the cam is in the car since all we have to go by is a cam card from comp, so it could be +/- 2-4deg what that says. As far as custom or shelf etc., the guys who supplied the original camshaft are certainly competent, and it may have simply been that the grind they felt was ideal was near the specs of one of comp's many 'shelf' cams.

On deck thickness, that is a talking point, but rarely an issue in real life with the overwhelming majority of heads. We sell aftermarket casting based heads, but choose to run the GM castings so often because they'll easily handle anything the average guy is going to do and don't suffer the aftermarket head drawbacks - guide wear, greatly increased weight, etc. The positive thing is that guys w/ aftermarket heads wanting to upgrade often end up breaking even or making $ by the time they sell the aftermarket head & go back to a worked OEM casting.

Thanks guys!

-Phil
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:10 PM   #37
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what where specs on cam used in this comparison( sorry if i missed them)...phil from ai is awsome to deal with, quick responses to email's and he answers all you dumb questions lol
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:26 PM   #38
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Okay, not to sound like a jerk but... Did I read it right on AI's web site? I like the idea of taking my heads, that I know and getting work done. I have the 241's. Is it a around 1500 dollars to get the CNC work done and spring, valves etc? And if so, why do that when I can buy proven, PRC heads for example for the same price if not less. I can also sell my old heads to offset the cost. Again, not trying to be rude as I am sure AI does great work.
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:47 PM   #39
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People in smog states or trying to be sneaky. But yes, most won't bother with 241's anymore. You would probably get more money selling the aluminum of those 241's than for the actual heads themselves, lol.
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:28 AM   #40
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Okay, not to sound like a jerk but... Did I read it right on AI's web site? I like the idea of taking my heads, that I know and getting work done. I have the 241's. Is it a around 1500 dollars to get the CNC work done and spring, valves etc? And if so, why do that when I can buy proven, PRC heads for example for the same price if not less. I can also sell my old heads to offset the cost. Again, not trying to be rude as I am sure AI does great work.
You are clearly missing the point if you consider PRC heads a "proven" alternative to Ai heads. When buying cylinder heads, you truly get what you pay for in terms of quality and performance. These ported 241 heads by Ai are a good bargain option, but are otherwise incomparable to similarly priced heads like PRC.
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