John B

iTrader: (10)

v8pwr, here's the problem....if I made half a dozen passes with varied launches and varied suspension settings, tire pressure, shifting techniques, etc in an attempt to optimize the combo and ALL I got was 133.75MPH at the track I would agree 100% with you but that's the problem....I MADE ONE PASS that was a sub-optimized run, I just can't understand why you can't agree. Have you made your best run at the track on the very 1st pass on a "shakedown run"? Let's look at what a Nationally known Speed Shop owner and racer sent me in a PM on another message board below regarding this subject:
I'm not here to make war with you v8pwr, LPE403 or anyone else......I post my facts and data on the Internet as a Community Service to "give back" to those for a Hobby that I have cherished for over 40 years. I do this freely to anyone willing to accept free information. I spend countless $10's of thousands of dollars experimenting, performing trials and error, documenting my results so that others can learn just like I did when I was introduced to Hot Rodding. I haven't tried to write books or give seminars and charge for my results, I give them away freely to help educate our community....this is my motivation for posting. What are your guys' motivation for trying to discredit my information? This is what doesn't make sense to me.

Is it really that hard for you guys to believe the results below? Where did this dyno suddenly get inflated...seriously?

-baseline with stock LS7, headers, 8.5" rear 487/470 RWHP/RWTQ
-revised baseline 12 bolt rear, tuned, headers, lighter clutch/ported TB & EWP 492/474 RWHP/RWTQ
-ported heads/SR cam/stock LS7 intake w/90mm ported TB: 618/518 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 618 w/ported LS7 intake w/90mm ported TB: 631/518 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 631 w/Beck Sheetmetal w/90mm ported TB: 639/522 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 639 w/Beck Sheetmetal w/102mm NW TB: 660/522 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 660 w/new stepped headers & 4" exhaust: 680/540 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 680 w/ Darin Morgan Heads 704/542 RWHP/RWTQ

I have more test results that I would like to post on this Forum where I tested the Holley High Ram intake on this motor.....I suppose I shouldn't post those results here either since you guys will call them bogus, inflated or underinflated while many other people on this Forum would be dying to see the results?

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Post them!!! I'm very interested in your results. I have a rebuilt to stock ls7 to put in my camaro. I did convert it to wet sump and 24t reluctor wheel.

I would like to see more info on your intake tests. Being mine will be in a 4th gen it may limit what intake works the best.

cdubbzz

iTrader: (11)

Engine makes good power so take her back to the track and see what she can really do..

Haans249

iTrader: (24)

This thread is pretty hilarious.

Numbers look pretty well supported to me based on the consistent Dyno numbers found during all of your upgrades. Its not hard for me to believe that you'll get 700rwhp out of a High-Compression, SR-huge cam, sheetmetal intake, with otherworldly heads.

Don't get so butt hurt by the nay-sayers, you know what you have!

John B

iTrader: (10)

I've actually tested 6 different intake manifold configurations in the ruthless pursuit of the magic numbers.....the OEM stock LS7 intake, Ported OEM LS7 intake, Beck Sheetmetal, MAST CNC aluminum LSX, Holley High Ram front opening and Holley High Ram top mount!

What's interesting is that there really are no surprises per se, just to recap:

-ported heads/SR cam/stock LS7 intake w/90mm ported TB: 618/518 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 618 w/ported LS7 intake w/90mm ported TB: 631/518 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 631 w/Beck Sheetmetal w/90mm ported TB: 639/522 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 639 w/Beck Sheetmetal w/102mm NW TB: 660/522 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 660 w/new stepped headers & 4" exhaust: 680/540 RWHP/RWTQ
-same as 680 w/ Darin Morgan Heads 704/542 RWHP/RWTQ

......the ported OEM LS7 stock intake makes +13/0 RWHP/RWTQ more at peak than the stock manifold and I believe this would be similar to the Holley plastic LSx 102mm intake with a 90mm TB. Now with the 90mm TB on the Beck sheetmetal intake, the gains are is +21/4 RWHP/RWTQ over the stock LS7 intake set-up. The upper RPM HP gains made with a 102mm vs 90mm TB on the Beck intake vs stock OEM make a significant difference +42/4 RWHP/RWTQ!

Now here is where you have to have trust in the testing process and a little Algebra....the graph below demonstrates irrefutably that the ~$700 Holley High Ram basically performs about the same as my $2500 Beck Sheetmetal intake I wouldn't consider +2/4 RWHP/RWTQ as statistically significant when compared to that of the Beck's performance so I HOPE that we can all agree that the Holley and Beck really perform about the same and that this small of a difference is "noise level".

If we can agree on this much, then you can reverse engineer your way backwards to compare the Holley with the Ported OEM LS7 intakes and stock LS7 intakes using the data that I have provide above and the graphs below. Of course your have to use the 680 RWHP graph as the baseline for direct comparisons because the difference is, the 706 RWHP for the Holley is with Morgan heads vs Good heads so the only way to get back to apples is to remember that your can't compare the 706 RWHP Holley against the stock OEM LS7 intake with a 90mm ported TB and say hey, the Holley is good for +66/28 RWHP/RWTQ, it's only +42/4 but still I think that this is HUGE! And yes, you likely need a motor making the power level that I am to see similar gains so please don't go bolt the Holley on your stock LS7 and then be disappointed....this HP difference is representative for a max effort set-up!

Hopefully this makes sense, and again these results are free for everyone to use to help them with their decision making even though they cost me close to $7K to obtain for all of the manifolds & TB's plus my free labor not to mention dyno time and tuning to produce! I certainly could just keep these results to myself but this is what I love doing and am happy to share for the benefit of all

Here is the Beck vs Holley:




I didn't talk about it much but here is where I tested the Holley with a flat top (tunnel ram style top) and mounted the TB on top vs the Holley front mount and Beck...as you can see no significant difference:



And lastly, the graph comparing the Holley to the Beck to the Ported OEM LS7 to the Stock LS7:

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

have you ever thought of a trying carbed style intake? Reason to or not?

I have the stock ls7 intake and a mamo's ls7 intake off dietcokes car. The new Atomic air force intakes looks to be the cars meow to me right now.....especially for fitting a 4gen.

thanks for your effort and sharing your results. I like tinkering with little **** like you're doin to. Hell I errytime I think it's time to put the ls7 in I think of a couple little this or thats for the ls6. I think with a couple changes I may be able to get my bolt-on ls6 to about 440whp(dynojet #'s). Searchin out that little **** is fun to me.....and a engine really starts to run hard when it's that tuned up.

What rockers are you running? What did you find for pro's and cons of different rockers?

I will put my 7 in and just do full bolt-ons for a while. Then probably do the stage 2 or 3 gmpp hot cam for it.

John B

iTrader: (10)

Actually I have, here are the results of the MAST LSX Carb style vs the Beck when I was at the 680 RWHP level, the LSX actually made 10RWHP more!




When I tried the LSX with the Morgan heads it ran a bit richer than the Beck and because I knew from previous experiments that when the timing tables were dead on and when the A/F was only slightly out of whack that there was only about 3-5 HP to be gained going from low 12's A/F up to mid 12's where it was with the Beck at peak HP...since the LSX running rich was only making right at 700 for RWHP with the Morgan heads I just bagged spending the effort to finish dialing it in logically reasoning that it would at best likely equal the Beck Sheetmetal or maybe surpass it by 2 or 3 HP which again is within the repeatability margin of error anyway...not really worth my time to find out. Of course the argument could be made that the lower RPM torque was up a bit, however, the drivability isn't there unless you changeover to a 4150 or 4500 style TB and then switch to SD tune. Since I wanted to run the car at the track ASAP, I didn't plan to race it with the LSX intake but in the long run, it may likely be the best choice if hood clearance isn't an issue! Here's the graph showing this after multiple tweaks:

Rise of the Phoenix

iTrader: (27)

Thanks for sharing all of that data. These are the things I love to see, and why I feel this place is so great. It really gives others the opportunity to see how the different products stack up against others and gives us more than just the "marketing" ploys these companies throw out. Helps us spend our money wisely.

LVTUNER

Thanks for posting up all your hard work. Can you post the best numbers on the Hi Ram again. Was it 680 HP? Do you think this intake is the best bang for the buck? Some of the other intakes are twice the cost.

John B

iTrader: (10)

Gladly, happy to help!
I know it's a bit confusing because there is so much test data to sort through but if you look at Post #45 the best for the High Ram is in the first dynograph and I've reposted it below here:



If you have the hood clearance, yes, however, it will be interesting to see the independent results of the new MSD intake though!

Rise of the Phoenix

iTrader: (27)

I'm getting a new MSD intake once they are available.

Violence.z06

iTrader: (3)

Any pics of the sheetmetal intake?

John B

iTrader: (10)

Here it is next to the Stock LS7 OEM intake:

v8pwr

iTrader: (19)

John,
I'm not engaging into any conflict with you. Initially all I stated was that I agreed with someone about the numbers not lining up. Your response was that I am clueless without knowing anything about me. I have never stated anything derogatory towards you or your project. This hobby along with many other things in life is plagued with lies, bs, and typical advertising garbage that many people get caught up in. I've seen and done numerous inspections and calibrations and people are "shocked" to find out that things are not what they thought they are. This is a discussion forum and I simply stated my thoughts in an appropriate manner as part of this discussion. You, as a moderator, are responsible for ensuring this very thing to all members in all threads, including your own.

John B

iTrader: (10)

Peace

Pwebbz28

iTrader: (31)

LpE is just mad his engine was a bust after throwing $$$ and no knowledge at it.

LPE 403

iTrader: (6)

No war or hurt here John. My observation was simple and intended to be non confrontational. I for one have been down the "questionable" claims battle before and apparently always will be with some of the uninformed, one-dimensional duechebags still out there. Regardless, V8pwr's post outlined my own sentiments perfectly and fwiw, would only add I wish you continued progress going forward......

HO99Vertz28

iTrader: (3)

Id be pissed if i had that much engine and spent as much money as he obviously has...and it ran those numbers

Tweaked Zed

Just wanted say John that this is an awesome build thread with all your changes and dyno numbers. Each step is very informative and interesting. Thankyou.

For the others, does this car look like it is a sorted drag car to you? Ever try to put down that kind of power with a T56 and drag radials? Chassis and combo makes a WORLD of difference. So quit harrassing this guy. ;-)

Beautiful car John, it'd be a blast to drive.

John B

iTrader: (10)

Thanks Zed!