Darth Vader 454 Project....LIVES AGAIN!!
08-04-2017, 08:30 PM
#43
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SKINNY69 wins purely based on his avatar....all bets are off!
Adds a new meaning to "perky"....LOL
Catch you guys later
-Tony
Adds a new meaning to "perky"....LOL
Catch you guys later
-Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
08-05-2017, 03:25 PM
#45
792hp
703tq
703tq
08-06-2017, 12:40 PM
#47
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Is today the day??
08-06-2017, 08:43 PM
#53
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Final numbers / video etc.! BUT.....before we go there (big sigh....LOL) I would like to discuss a certain topic that based on alot of the "guesses" is an opportunity for some of you to get a better understanding of some things which will give you a leg up on what's possible (and what isn't) when it comes to modding our beloved LS engines.
That topic is torque output....specifically peak torque output which is very different than horsepower and is much more of a "fixed" or should I say "limited" variable. The two largest things that dictate torque output are displacement and compression ratio. Displacement clearly the lion's share of that situation probably representing 75-80% of what's possible....compression ratio representing another 15% of what's possible (a much smaller variable but still significant) and then the engine's volumetric efficiency or its ability to process airflow based on how good your heads, manifold, exhaust etc. is covering the final 5-10% of what cam affect peak torque values.
In this particular situation (my 454), displacement remained a constant as did the compression ratio....the only real change being the cylinder heads and intake manifold but remember what I just laid out....that will have a far smaller impact on torque output (although a much greater impact on horsepower!).
Guys that kept the torque numbers closer to my original cathedral numbers either guessed correctly or were already familiar with this situation perhaps having spent a bunch of time reading and educating themselves or spent enough time in front of a dyno or evaluating dyno results....either way this is how things work when discussing traditional normally aspirated engines. My breaking it down into the three groups to simplify things (displacement, compression ratio, and airflow) doesnt take into account every small detail but all the other "details" will still only have a much smaller impact on peak torque's bottom line. Again....peak torque....not how well it carries....that's a different topic and how well an engine carries its torque output is essentially what determines the type of horsepower it will produce.
Horsepower is very different....there are dozens of variables that effect horsepower and all of them are related to how well the engine breathes and how much RPM is can spin effectively and still process enough airflow to overcome its own frictional and heat losses. Cam size, heads, headers, intake manifolds, valve control, rotating assy friction, type of oiling system....I can go on and on....all these variables effect horsepower so you can build a 454 like the one I just did and make real close to the same peak torque and only make 650 HP.....or you could potentially make over 800 HP in a high RPM dedicated drag piece.....all of this is determined by the list of variables just mentioned but peak torque from the 650 engine will be very similar to the 800 engine....it will happen sooner (peak torque) and roll over alot faster....thats what kills the power output....its lack of ability to process more air at higher RPM (small cam, long runner intake, crappy heads, too small a header, etc. etc. )
So here is a video of one of the final runs....what Im calling final is the run that has the highest HP of the day which may not be the highest torque value simply due to dyno repeatability and maybe the temp of the oil or water on that particular pull (we do our best to keep that stuff consistant....this dyno repeats very well....within a HP or two at this level which is a small fraction of 1%). We could have played with the A/F ratio a touch more and timing some but we were 98% there and it had already exceeded what I was hoping for with such a small cam for this size engine. It's only a 250 Hyd roller intake lobe guys....on a big 454 that's a fairly modest camshaft but I went with that to make it a much more well rounded and street friendly combination and as the dyno sheet will clearly display this engine is simply a racehorse at any RPM including the 3900 or so we initially loaded it at!
Im going to post the actual dyno graph soon but the final numbers the contest is based on will be 766 HP and 655 TQ which two guys got very close to last time I checked.
I will revisit this thread in a few hours and include the plot of the curve when I do....it is one of the sexiest I have ever built and this engine slightly exceeded my "best" expectations and after all the drama I had with it years ago was a very happy ending to a long personal journey for me!! I say "best" expectation....to better clarify I went into this test thinking 650+ Tq (check!).....735 - 745 HP being somewhat camshaft limited....750 or better was best case scenario for me and we exceeded that by a healthy margin!
Btw a big congrats to NHRAFORMULA00....nailed the torque output right on the money and missed the HP by 2!! Honestly another pull could have easily gotten that two (with likely the same exact TQ figure) but Steve who operates the dyno had some drama in his life that day and we were all pretty pleased with the numbers that came in pretty quickly so Miller time just came a little early!
Will check in later....need to get a few things done
Cheers,
Tony
That topic is torque output....specifically peak torque output which is very different than horsepower and is much more of a "fixed" or should I say "limited" variable. The two largest things that dictate torque output are displacement and compression ratio. Displacement clearly the lion's share of that situation probably representing 75-80% of what's possible....compression ratio representing another 15% of what's possible (a much smaller variable but still significant) and then the engine's volumetric efficiency or its ability to process airflow based on how good your heads, manifold, exhaust etc. is covering the final 5-10% of what cam affect peak torque values.
In this particular situation (my 454), displacement remained a constant as did the compression ratio....the only real change being the cylinder heads and intake manifold but remember what I just laid out....that will have a far smaller impact on torque output (although a much greater impact on horsepower!).
Guys that kept the torque numbers closer to my original cathedral numbers either guessed correctly or were already familiar with this situation perhaps having spent a bunch of time reading and educating themselves or spent enough time in front of a dyno or evaluating dyno results....either way this is how things work when discussing traditional normally aspirated engines. My breaking it down into the three groups to simplify things (displacement, compression ratio, and airflow) doesnt take into account every small detail but all the other "details" will still only have a much smaller impact on peak torque's bottom line. Again....peak torque....not how well it carries....that's a different topic and how well an engine carries its torque output is essentially what determines the type of horsepower it will produce.
Horsepower is very different....there are dozens of variables that effect horsepower and all of them are related to how well the engine breathes and how much RPM is can spin effectively and still process enough airflow to overcome its own frictional and heat losses. Cam size, heads, headers, intake manifolds, valve control, rotating assy friction, type of oiling system....I can go on and on....all these variables effect horsepower so you can build a 454 like the one I just did and make real close to the same peak torque and only make 650 HP.....or you could potentially make over 800 HP in a high RPM dedicated drag piece.....all of this is determined by the list of variables just mentioned but peak torque from the 650 engine will be very similar to the 800 engine....it will happen sooner (peak torque) and roll over alot faster....thats what kills the power output....its lack of ability to process more air at higher RPM (small cam, long runner intake, crappy heads, too small a header, etc. etc. )
So here is a video of one of the final runs....what Im calling final is the run that has the highest HP of the day which may not be the highest torque value simply due to dyno repeatability and maybe the temp of the oil or water on that particular pull (we do our best to keep that stuff consistant....this dyno repeats very well....within a HP or two at this level which is a small fraction of 1%). We could have played with the A/F ratio a touch more and timing some but we were 98% there and it had already exceeded what I was hoping for with such a small cam for this size engine. It's only a 250 Hyd roller intake lobe guys....on a big 454 that's a fairly modest camshaft but I went with that to make it a much more well rounded and street friendly combination and as the dyno sheet will clearly display this engine is simply a racehorse at any RPM including the 3900 or so we initially loaded it at!
Im going to post the actual dyno graph soon but the final numbers the contest is based on will be 766 HP and 655 TQ which two guys got very close to last time I checked.
I will revisit this thread in a few hours and include the plot of the curve when I do....it is one of the sexiest I have ever built and this engine slightly exceeded my "best" expectations and after all the drama I had with it years ago was a very happy ending to a long personal journey for me!! I say "best" expectation....to better clarify I went into this test thinking 650+ Tq (check!).....735 - 745 HP being somewhat camshaft limited....750 or better was best case scenario for me and we exceeded that by a healthy margin!
Btw a big congrats to NHRAFORMULA00....nailed the torque output right on the money and missed the HP by 2!! Honestly another pull could have easily gotten that two (with likely the same exact TQ figure) but Steve who operates the dyno had some drama in his life that day and we were all pretty pleased with the numbers that came in pretty quickly so Miller time just came a little early!
Will check in later....need to get a few things done
Cheers,
Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 08-06-2017 at 09:11 PM.
08-07-2017, 04:53 AM
#55
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Thread Starter
Pretty damn sexy curve....it's impressive for a big cube engine with alot of stroke to hang on like this, especially with only a modest amount of cam timing relative to its displacement. It still made 761 HP at 7000 RPM and you can even hear in the video this engine still wants to climb higher....it's barely rolling over at 7K. Ideal shift points are probably 7300 or so....we will have to see what it does in the car with the true dual full exhaust system in place. That's what will really dictate the correct shift points....once we see what it does in the car with the CAI and full exhaust etc.
Catch you guys later
-Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
08-07-2017, 12:34 PM
#58
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LOL - kidding I know you were looking at some time constraints, and I'm sure the owner will still need a chassis dyno done. But for the love of Mike, PLEASE spin it out to see how far it carries!
Watch those upshifts, for sure!
08-07-2017, 02:04 PM
#60
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I really like the way that power curve just CARRIES! I mean, what is that 6900 RPM? and it still hasn't fallen off yet? Spin that bitch! See how long it holds on!
LOL - kidding I know you were looking at some time constraints, and I'm sure the owner will still need a chassis dyno done. But for the love of Mike, PLEASE spin it out to see how far it carries!
Watch those upshifts, for sure!
LOL - kidding I know you were looking at some time constraints, and I'm sure the owner will still need a chassis dyno done. But for the love of Mike, PLEASE spin it out to see how far it carries!
Watch those upshifts, for sure!
Take it Easy
LOL!
7200 RPM With a 4.125" Stroke has the same piston speed
As 8200+ RPM with Hammers or my engine.