Dart 205/ F13/ FAST 90/90 - Dyno Results
10-12-2008, 01:50 PM
#21
There is a lot of confusion over the MAF in this thread.
I will tell you why I don't like them in many circumstances...
*MOST* of the 85mm MAFs that come to me are cheap eBay truck MAFs. Yes they are OEM parts. Here's the skinny... at any given amount of airflow, they report MUCH higher than your stock F-body MAF. This isn't a big deal for me since I work with the cars on the street (with the owners driving in almost all cases) before they ever go on the dyno. However, this higher frequency reporting that the 85s do causes them to be maxed out much much earlier. When that happens, the car can be 'tuned for the moment' through the PE table, but from the in the RPM range that it maxes out until peak RPM, the fueling will vary some based on environmental variables. I have had quite a few cars as low as 420-430rwhp that put their 85mm MAFs in the last cell (maxed!) in the summer time. That means that those cars (and the ones that made more) will run out of MAF table from the overly high frequency reported. Not all 85's report in the same fashion; this is why you shouldn't use the truck MAF though past approximately cam-only.
/2cents
I will tell you why I don't like them in many circumstances...
*MOST* of the 85mm MAFs that come to me are cheap eBay truck MAFs. Yes they are OEM parts. Here's the skinny... at any given amount of airflow, they report MUCH higher than your stock F-body MAF. This isn't a big deal for me since I work with the cars on the street (with the owners driving in almost all cases) before they ever go on the dyno. However, this higher frequency reporting that the 85s do causes them to be maxed out much much earlier. When that happens, the car can be 'tuned for the moment' through the PE table, but from the in the RPM range that it maxes out until peak RPM, the fueling will vary some based on environmental variables. I have had quite a few cars as low as 420-430rwhp that put their 85mm MAFs in the last cell (maxed!) in the summer time. That means that those cars (and the ones that made more) will run out of MAF table from the overly high frequency reported. Not all 85's report in the same fashion; this is why you shouldn't use the truck MAF though past approximately cam-only.
/2cents
10-12-2008, 07:16 PM
#22
how big is the stock maf on the zo6? anyone know.
I am doing a ported 92 to 100mm and a rev extreme 100mm tb and was wondering if I should pick up the LME 100mm MAF to get a full 100mm setup.
Please let me know what you think SLOHAWK, very much appreciated.
Should I run the stock maf or the 100mm lingenfelter unit for my setup.
I am doing a ported 92 to 100mm and a rev extreme 100mm tb and was wondering if I should pick up the LME 100mm MAF to get a full 100mm setup.
Please let me know what you think SLOHAWK, very much appreciated.
Should I run the stock maf or the 100mm lingenfelter unit for my setup.
10-12-2008, 07:39 PM
#23
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10-13-2008, 05:27 AM
#24
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There is a lot of confusion over the MAF in this thread.
I will tell you why I don't like them in many circumstances...
*MOST* of the 85mm MAFs that come to me are cheap eBay truck MAFs. Yes they are OEM parts. Here's the skinny... at any given amount of airflow, they report MUCH higher than your stock F-body MAF. This isn't a big deal for me since I work with the cars on the street (with the owners driving in almost all cases) before they ever go on the dyno. However, this higher frequency reporting that the 85s do causes them to be maxed out much much earlier. When that happens, the car can be 'tuned for the moment' through the PE table, but from the in the RPM range that it maxes out until peak RPM, the fueling will vary some based on environmental variables. I have had quite a few cars as low as 420-430rwhp that put their 85mm MAFs in the last cell (maxed!) in the summer time. That means that those cars (and the ones that made more) will run out of MAF table from the overly high frequency reported. Not all 85's report in the same fashion; this is why you shouldn't use the truck MAF though past approximately cam-only.
/2cents
I will tell you why I don't like them in many circumstances...
*MOST* of the 85mm MAFs that come to me are cheap eBay truck MAFs. Yes they are OEM parts. Here's the skinny... at any given amount of airflow, they report MUCH higher than your stock F-body MAF. This isn't a big deal for me since I work with the cars on the street (with the owners driving in almost all cases) before they ever go on the dyno. However, this higher frequency reporting that the 85s do causes them to be maxed out much much earlier. When that happens, the car can be 'tuned for the moment' through the PE table, but from the in the RPM range that it maxes out until peak RPM, the fueling will vary some based on environmental variables. I have had quite a few cars as low as 420-430rwhp that put their 85mm MAFs in the last cell (maxed!) in the summer time. That means that those cars (and the ones that made more) will run out of MAF table from the overly high frequency reported. Not all 85's report in the same fashion; this is why you shouldn't use the truck MAF though past approximately cam-only.
/2cents
10-13-2008, 06:56 AM
#25
Eastside tunes for max power and backs off a little bit. Their record holding N2o LSX car ran a stock MAF. JL-Ws6 still runs a stocker and he runs mid 9's on the jug. I guess the big question is do people want to pay for street tunes. If it wasnt for the fact we had to pass the computer emissions test id say chuck the MAF. Not withstanding Eastside Perf. other tuners in CT would charge their hourly rate per hour on dialing in driveablity. Unfortunately its out of the $$$ range that most could spend.
As long as the tune can deal with climate changes or at least the driver has 2-3 files that he can upload himself, then I'd say do that.
As long as the tune can deal with climate changes or at least the driver has 2-3 files that he can upload himself, then I'd say do that.
10-13-2008, 08:52 AM
#26
My big question is, if the stock fbody MAF's are best then why does GM put a bigger on on the Z06's?
Also, saying XXX car ran this time with the stock one is a stupid argument. People have run 10's with 2.73 gears, but when a guy with a 12 second car wants to change gears people don't jump on them and say, "XXX car ran 10's with the 2.73's so spend your money elsewhere." You could make the same argument for almost any speed part.
Also, saying XXX car ran this time with the stock one is a stupid argument. People have run 10's with 2.73 gears, but when a guy with a 12 second car wants to change gears people don't jump on them and say, "XXX car ran 10's with the 2.73's so spend your money elsewhere." You could make the same argument for almost any speed part.
10-13-2008, 09:18 AM
#27
The bigger question is how much will the MAF improve WOT power and how will it effect driveability. If the Tuner doesnt want to do it, then I mean why break his *****.
Ron, gearing is one thing, but we are talking about air flow. All things being equal, is it truely a restriction? I honestly dont know and I am not an expert.
On every car but a LSX car it has not seemed to be that way. If it be you, joe, jay or even me. I would like to see if it will make a difference. I personally in not in a $$$ position to do this but you might be.
I think the issue is finding a tuner to do the work and we all know who is around.... and I dont see them doing it for cheap $$$$.
If I can do this, I would like to try, let me say that but I think someone else will man up to be the test subject before I can get into a postion.
I'd like to see you making your old peak HP # with the added rearend/DS/and Cats.
Ron, gearing is one thing, but we are talking about air flow. All things being equal, is it truely a restriction? I honestly dont know and I am not an expert.
On every car but a LSX car it has not seemed to be that way. If it be you, joe, jay or even me. I would like to see if it will make a difference. I personally in not in a $$$ position to do this but you might be.
I think the issue is finding a tuner to do the work and we all know who is around.... and I dont see them doing it for cheap $$$$.
If I can do this, I would like to try, let me say that but I think someone else will man up to be the test subject before I can get into a postion.
I'd like to see you making your old peak HP # with the added rearend/DS/and Cats.
Last edited by BlackScreaminMachine; 10-13-2008 at 09:47 AM.
10-13-2008, 09:45 AM
#28
Oh and I will say this.
If/When I can do this I will be buying a,.....
Racetronix 255lph Fuel pump w/ hotwire kit
42 lbs injectors
Fast Toys Lid and MAF combo
and the clean up tune for getting the combo to work.
I'd like to the $$$ per hp figure. If it does make better power, depending on the tune cost, I bet its going to be one of those things where its good to leave it until last. Like a EWP on a LSX motor.
***Edit; Let me also say I am with Ron, I would like to see a nice gain, I agree if the Zo6 has a larger MAF, there is a reason. Be it they were not making smaller MAF's or it made more power. OR easier tune ability***
If/When I can do this I will be buying a,.....
Racetronix 255lph Fuel pump w/ hotwire kit
42 lbs injectors
Fast Toys Lid and MAF combo
and the clean up tune for getting the combo to work.
I'd like to the $$$ per hp figure. If it does make better power, depending on the tune cost, I bet its going to be one of those things where its good to leave it until last. Like a EWP on a LSX motor.
***Edit; Let me also say I am with Ron, I would like to see a nice gain, I agree if the Zo6 has a larger MAF, there is a reason. Be it they were not making smaller MAF's or it made more power. OR easier tune ability***
Last edited by BlackScreaminMachine; 10-13-2008 at 10:09 AM.
10-13-2008, 10:47 AM
#29
The whole MAF argument is an interesting one. On the one side, it doesn't make sense to run a smaller diameter maf when you increase the intake and throttle body diameter but still have a restriction at the maf. It's like going to longtube headers, but running a 2" cat attatched to each.
And I love the arguments about how such and such car went 9s or made 500hp with a stock maf, but again, you can make 500hp on stock exhaust manifolds with enough cubic inches, but why would you hold yourself back?
I am interested in the theory about the truck 85mm mafs being different than the z06 85mm maf. Is there a part number difference? I picked up a descreened truck maf when I went with a Fasttoys lid and my 90mm FAST. I've redone the maf calibration using Hptuners but I don't think I've maxed it out yet at all. We'll see.
And I love the arguments about how such and such car went 9s or made 500hp with a stock maf, but again, you can make 500hp on stock exhaust manifolds with enough cubic inches, but why would you hold yourself back?
I am interested in the theory about the truck 85mm mafs being different than the z06 85mm maf. Is there a part number difference? I picked up a descreened truck maf when I went with a Fasttoys lid and my 90mm FAST. I've redone the maf calibration using Hptuners but I don't think I've maxed it out yet at all. We'll see.
10-13-2008, 11:43 AM
#30
...
I am interested in the theory about the truck 85mm mafs being different than the z06 85mm maf. Is there a part number difference? I picked up a descreened truck maf when I went with a Fasttoys lid and my 90mm FAST. I've redone the maf calibration using Hptuners but I don't think I've maxed it out yet at all. We'll see.
I am interested in the theory about the truck 85mm mafs being different than the z06 85mm maf. Is there a part number difference? I picked up a descreened truck maf when I went with a Fasttoys lid and my 90mm FAST. I've redone the maf calibration using Hptuners but I don't think I've maxed it out yet at all. We'll see.
10-13-2008, 01:32 PM
#31
Oh and I will say this.
If/When I can do this I will be buying a,.....
Racetronix 255lph Fuel pump w/ hotwire kit
42 lbs injectors
Fast Toys Lid and MAF combo
and the clean up tune for getting the combo to work.
I'd like to the $$$ per hp figure. If it does make better power, depending on the tune cost, I bet its going to be one of those things where its good to leave it until last. Like a EWP on a LSX motor.
***Edit; Let me also say I am with Ron, I would like to see a nice gain, I agree if the Zo6 has a larger MAF, there is a reason. Be it they were not making smaller MAF's or it made more power. OR easier tune ability***
If/When I can do this I will be buying a,.....
Racetronix 255lph Fuel pump w/ hotwire kit
42 lbs injectors
Fast Toys Lid and MAF combo
and the clean up tune for getting the combo to work.
I'd like to the $$$ per hp figure. If it does make better power, depending on the tune cost, I bet its going to be one of those things where its good to leave it until last. Like a EWP on a LSX motor.
***Edit; Let me also say I am with Ron, I would like to see a nice gain, I agree if the Zo6 has a larger MAF, there is a reason. Be it they were not making smaller MAF's or it made more power. OR easier tune ability***
10-13-2008, 02:11 PM
#32
For all the money you spent on the FAST setup and you're going to spend on the fuel pump, MAF, etc, you could have just saved a little longer and picked up way more power with a decent set of heads (hell, even if you didn't say up for longer and just spent that much on them).
If you and other people check their duty cycle on the injectors, you have to be near max. I mean you really don't want over 80%.
Cyl heads sometimes gain, and other times do not. You and I both know this.
The only cyl head I would bet that would be a guarrenteed gain is a TFS 215cc head. Given the price, its a LARGE investment. I can buy a fully done up n2o kit, with all the extras, 15 pound bottle, and the fuel upgrades and when it comes down a race, I would prob do better.
Joe, you know I love yea, but man I would almost have to say the same about car mods and guitar buying.....
10-13-2008, 03:28 PM
#33
Joe, You have a point, but this is my view/opinion.
If you and other people check their duty cycle on the injectors, you have to be near max. I mean you really don't want over 80%.
Cyl heads sometimes gain, and other times do not. You and I both know this.
The only cyl head I would bet that would be a guarrenteed gain is a TFS 215cc head. Given the price, its a LARGE investment. I can buy a fully done up n2o kit, with all the extras, 15 pound bottle, and the fuel upgrades and when it comes down a race, I would prob do better.
Joe, you know I love yea, but man I would almost have to say the same about car mods and guitar buying.....
If you and other people check their duty cycle on the injectors, you have to be near max. I mean you really don't want over 80%.
Cyl heads sometimes gain, and other times do not. You and I both know this.
The only cyl head I would bet that would be a guarrenteed gain is a TFS 215cc head. Given the price, its a LARGE investment. I can buy a fully done up n2o kit, with all the extras, 15 pound bottle, and the fuel upgrades and when it comes down a race, I would prob do better.
Joe, you know I love yea, but man I would almost have to say the same about car mods and guitar buying.....
http://texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=84&catid=40
But at least now you have it for when you do buy some big time heads like TFS or AFR. And of course the fuel upgrade will be a must at some point.
10-13-2008, 04:27 PM
#34
Yea the 90/90 was a splurge, at least I can say I manned up for it and on a cam only car that had a LS6, I bet there was a gain, but since it was done at the same time, we really cant tell.
I figure when heads go on, ill do either TFS, AFR or maybe those 5.3's.
I figure when heads go on, ill do either TFS, AFR or maybe those 5.3's.
10-13-2008, 07:40 PM
#35
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10-15-2008, 08:17 AM
#36
Bottom line is that the general opinion is to wait to get the FAST intake until you at least have heads and cam (and some people say to wait until you have more cubes if you have an LS6 intake already). You knew this and chose to get it anyway hoping that it would give you the gains you wanted. The car didn't make the power you were looking for (you originially said 435 rwhp and then lowered it to 415 rwhp). You can justify the intake all you want, but a set of heads would have put you closer to or over your goal for the same (or VERY close) money. Not trying to bash you, but you know I'll shoot you straight, even if you aren't gonna like what I'm telling you. You did what you wanted to, and it's your money so you should have. But, don't sugar coat it after the fact and try to make it look like it was totally worth it when you know that it probably wasn't. Be honest with yourself. I'm sure it didn't hurt you, but I doubt it's helping much (and almost certainly not enough to justify the money spent). Hind sight is 20/20. Don't be the guy who chooses to make this statement false by lying to yourself.
