l92 heads lifting???
11-02-2009, 01:17 PM
#21
8 Second Club
iTrader: (40)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Raleigh,North Carolina
Posts: 1,861
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The issue is that when you take a REAL street car, that gets DRIVEN, not a 1/4 mile at a time, that is when you will have problems.
Going to a FRESH, no mile head will extend the longevity, as long as the block and tune up are good.
As soon as it starts to move around, cylinder pressure might go up, bad gas, high heat, you name it- Something that shows ZERO signs of damage, and all of a sudden, it will push water.
It may take a 30, 40, 50, 100 mile drive to see it happen. Garage queens may never ever see it. drag racers may only see it in the puke tank. They can just top it off and go another round or 5 before they need to tear it apart....
The "pushing water" issue is out there, most dont understand it or even know its happening, but I can tell you its probably happening more than people want to admit. If you are building a NEW foundation and plan to make big hp ( 700 at the wheels plus) I would HIGHLY recommend going 6 bolt for pure reliability sake. Is it over kill? Sure, some will call it that, but the minute you have to tear it down and put fresh gaskets on it, thats when its NOT over kill.
are there things that lead to it pushing more than others? Sure! BIG area under the curve turbo cars ( read- peak tq at 3-3500) will push WAY earlier than a centri car, who makes peak tq at say 5500 or 6k....
Any big power adder cars that come through here from here on out will ALL be 6 bolt, no questions asked. Period. If I put my name on it, and I stand behind it, I wont be experimenting with what so-and-so says will work across the country.
Louis
Going to a FRESH, no mile head will extend the longevity, as long as the block and tune up are good.
As soon as it starts to move around, cylinder pressure might go up, bad gas, high heat, you name it- Something that shows ZERO signs of damage, and all of a sudden, it will push water.
It may take a 30, 40, 50, 100 mile drive to see it happen. Garage queens may never ever see it. drag racers may only see it in the puke tank. They can just top it off and go another round or 5 before they need to tear it apart....
The "pushing water" issue is out there, most dont understand it or even know its happening, but I can tell you its probably happening more than people want to admit. If you are building a NEW foundation and plan to make big hp ( 700 at the wheels plus) I would HIGHLY recommend going 6 bolt for pure reliability sake. Is it over kill? Sure, some will call it that, but the minute you have to tear it down and put fresh gaskets on it, thats when its NOT over kill.
are there things that lead to it pushing more than others? Sure! BIG area under the curve turbo cars ( read- peak tq at 3-3500) will push WAY earlier than a centri car, who makes peak tq at say 5500 or 6k....
Any big power adder cars that come through here from here on out will ALL be 6 bolt, no questions asked. Period. If I put my name on it, and I stand behind it, I wont be experimenting with what so-and-so says will work across the country.
Louis
11-02-2009, 03:21 PM
#22
orings help a ton, buick guys have done it forever. last motor i ran with o rings. 25psi, 21* timing, motor was not happy, detonating, ended up catching it before it blew. the bearings where done, pistons were ok. head gaskets DIDNT push a drop the entire time. Explain that, all on a 317 head, standard arp studs, torqued to 80 lbs. mls gaskets.
11-02-2009, 03:26 PM
#23
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (16)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 363
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yet Lingenfelter can knock out 1100rwhp on 93 octane, and 1300rwhp on race gas, using factory 4 bolt heads, with only porting a polishing, and do so with no problems what-so-ever....
11-02-2009, 03:43 PM
#24
Ive made 1100 on 4 bolts too, so have a lot of others. but from a RELIABLE, street car, that gets driven MORE than is worked on, why try to prove the world you can keep the heads on it with 4 bolts?
I can tell Im making lot of people mad here, but the truth is the truth, show me some reliable data on how you keep the heads on and the WATER IN THE COOLANT SYSTEM on a STREET car and I will be your first customer.
Louis
11-02-2009, 04:19 PM
#25
Teching In
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you see that car on the street? Do you see it at the track? Ive seen one video, and thats it. It eats a gearbox everytime it goes out.
Ive made 1100 on 4 bolts too, so have a lot of others. but from a RELIABLE, street car, that gets driven MORE than is worked on, why try to prove the world you can keep the heads on it with 4 bolts?
I can tell Im making lot of people mad here, but the truth is the truth, show me some reliable data on how you keep the heads on and the WATER IN THE COOLANT SYSTEM on a STREET car and I will be your first customer.
Louis
Ive made 1100 on 4 bolts too, so have a lot of others. but from a RELIABLE, street car, that gets driven MORE than is worked on, why try to prove the world you can keep the heads on it with 4 bolts?
I can tell Im making lot of people mad here, but the truth is the truth, show me some reliable data on how you keep the heads on and the WATER IN THE COOLANT SYSTEM on a STREET car and I will be your first customer.
Louis
Jeff Myers
Lingenfelter Performance Engineering.
11-02-2009, 07:15 PM
#26
If o ring's work better why the fuss? I think u can push a o ring lsx block harder than a standard clamping force lsx. Although the lin felter tt vettes are 1k plus to the wheels but can u hit it and hold it with out it pushing water? IMHO no u cant, Because the car is on the edge anyway so who wants to tear up their 20+k investment? I think lin vette are more show than go, There are a number of built lsx cars out pushing more power more often then them. Im not trying to bash lingingfelter but as of late alot of the smaller doggs are running past them.
11-03-2009, 06:42 AM
#29
the oring is the way to go, im getting ready to push gm casting l92 to the limit, build is a 408-418cu, 98mm. motor is just oringed, with copper gaskets going in. i will post up a thread on findings at 10-25psi of boost. BS3 is running the show so we will all be able to see how much the oringing of block and heads improves sealing.
11-03-2009, 07:18 AM
#30
FormerVendor
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia Beach,Virginia
Posts: 2,991
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
while it may be some peoples OPINION that you can't make over 800hp with 4 bolts heads, without pushing water.It is a FACT it can be done.I got more 1000+ rwhp street cars out there with no head gasket issues.I've seen 6 bolt heads blow head gaskets-it all has to do with proper parts selection,proper machining,proper tuning.
Yes 6 bolt heads are always going to be better-but then so is a billet crank.Why don't we put billet cranks in every engine?It's called compromise-we try to get the most bang for our buck.When something of lesser price will work just fine there is no reason to spend more on a more expensive part.
This is just my observations.
Yes 6 bolt heads are always going to be better-but then so is a billet crank.Why don't we put billet cranks in every engine?It's called compromise-we try to get the most bang for our buck.When something of lesser price will work just fine there is no reason to spend more on a more expensive part.
This is just my observations.
11-03-2009, 07:53 AM
#34
It doesn't matter what state, fact is, you CANNOT, on the street, generate the load that you can on the track with slicks, trying to move a 3000 lb car. Load=cylinder pressure. Without load, you have no cylinder pressure (or at least much less). Cylinder pressure is what causes heads to lift.
How many guys are saying "I was driving my 1000 rwhp car down the street, and I hit it once and it pushed water"? Answer: NONE.
If you have different laws of physics in Texas, I guess I know what's wrong with that state then.
11-03-2009, 09:04 AM
#35
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about when an O-Ringed motor DOES blow a ring compared to say a good mild 6 bolt motor without rings? It will do alot of REAL damage that can cost Real money to fix, when you could spend the extra dough in the first place to at least have the piece of mind. I mean yeah, guys been making over 1000 HP with LS motors on 4 bolts for quite a while now. But if something better comes along and you DO have the money to go with it. I say go with it.
P.S. I have seen places in Houston for example such as Rankin road years back where the street was prepped with VHT etc, made HRP on a friday night look bad...
Oh and P.P.S. I am not biased at all, I'm in the same shitty boat 402 LQ9 with L92 heads, pushing 12 PSI for now and 0 issues on cometic and ARP
P.S. I have seen places in Houston for example such as Rankin road years back where the street was prepped with VHT etc, made HRP on a friday night look bad...
Oh and P.P.S. I am not biased at all, I'm in the same shitty boat 402 LQ9 with L92 heads, pushing 12 PSI for now and 0 issues on cometic and ARP
11-03-2009, 09:33 AM
#36
It doesn't matter what state, fact is, you CANNOT, on the street, generate the load that you can on the track with slicks, trying to move a 3000 lb car. Load=cylinder pressure. Without load, you have no cylinder pressure (or at least much less). Cylinder pressure is what causes heads to lift.
How many guys are saying "I was driving my 1000 rwhp car down the street, and I hit it once and it pushed water"? Answer: NONE.
If you have different laws of physics in Texas, I guess I know what's wrong with that state then.
How many guys are saying "I was driving my 1000 rwhp car down the street, and I hit it once and it pushed water"? Answer: NONE.
If you have different laws of physics in Texas, I guess I know what's wrong with that state then.
Like I said, we do it differently here.
Actually, if your car doesnt make 1000 down here, you are not fast. Multiple pulls, "cruises" gumball style.
Try doing 3-5 texas mile style pulls with in a 20-30 minute span, no cool down, no time to turn the car around, no maintenance, no nothing. Weird **** happens, and it forces you to be a better tech. If Your customers always break, people do not bring their car to you anymore.
This is why the racecar=/=streetcar. 15 seconds of run time with an 8 second car =/= a texas mile pull. trust me, I know.
11-03-2009, 10:03 AM
#37
Does anyone have any hard data on how much more cylinder pressure a 6 bolt LSX setup can handle over a 4 bolt setup before it pushes? I have my doubts as to how much extra it really is as the 2 extra bolts are little. The top one cant even be torqued because to the best of my knowledge you cant get a torque wrench on it.
11-03-2009, 11:02 AM
#39
This isn't an LG vs VA Speed thread Ed. I back you guys more than you know, so please dont turn this into a war that it isn't.
You guys are the ONLY reason that gives 4 bolt guys hope. Kurt Urban, first car in the 6s, couldnt keep the heads on it. It pushed so much water, it needed a bypass valve on it to keep the coolant in the motor. He and Mike Moran are no dummies.
Lets look at the timeline of events- If O-Ringing was as good as you make it out to be, why were there even castings and blocks made with 6 bolt setups?! In order to make new blocks, new heads, new R&D, there had to be a reason. People dont make new parts unless there is a need. Necessity is the mother of invention, is it not?
Hey, Lets add 2 more bolts to our heads because we dont need to!
Why does phil run a 6 bolt setup? Why does Vee8 run a 6 bolt setup? Why does LMR run a 6 bolt setup? Why did Mightymouse swap to a 6 bolt?
If the 4 bolt setup is working, why are these pioneers running 6 bolt setups?
Again, lets step back, forget what you are selling, and see whats best for the consumer.
You guys are the ONLY reason that gives 4 bolt guys hope. Kurt Urban, first car in the 6s, couldnt keep the heads on it. It pushed so much water, it needed a bypass valve on it to keep the coolant in the motor. He and Mike Moran are no dummies.
Lets look at the timeline of events- If O-Ringing was as good as you make it out to be, why were there even castings and blocks made with 6 bolt setups?! In order to make new blocks, new heads, new R&D, there had to be a reason. People dont make new parts unless there is a need. Necessity is the mother of invention, is it not?
Hey, Lets add 2 more bolts to our heads because we dont need to!
Why does phil run a 6 bolt setup? Why does Vee8 run a 6 bolt setup? Why does LMR run a 6 bolt setup? Why did Mightymouse swap to a 6 bolt?
If the 4 bolt setup is working, why are these pioneers running 6 bolt setups?
Again, lets step back, forget what you are selling, and see whats best for the consumer.
11-03-2009, 11:04 AM
#40
FormerVendor
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia Beach,Virginia
Posts: 2,991
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
he 6 bolt setup will def hold more than a 4 bolt,and if you can afford it-buy it.
we use 3/8 studs instead of 8mm studs for the smaller ones and i do have an adapter to tq the inner ones.
we use 3/8 studs instead of 8mm studs for the smaller ones and i do have an adapter to tq the inner ones.