Broke another trans...what's going on?
#21
I work at a Trans shop and put trannys in every day. 1/4 inch is too far bud. Add in when your loading the converter up ie foot brake or Trans brake the converter is pushing towards the motor so figure it's already 1/4 inch out of the pump gears then how ever much it's flexing forward. Almost garentee your breaking the pump gears apart. That would be my guess with no pics. I mean come on a th3nhalf 2 400 now a power glide. And every one a pump? Either your your making more power then every other guy on earth or the converter is pulling to far out. Looks like its time to go to a lenco lol jk Space it out with washers you'll be good to go
Thanks all for the help. I think this one is figured out. I'll let you know how the swap goes and take some pictures to ensure all looks well.
#22
8 Second Club
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If you have to pull the converter 1/4", and loading the trans with boost moves the converter forward enough to pull the converter out of the pump, is shimming 1/8" going to solve the issue? That would be going from disengaged or nearly disengaged from the tangs to barely engaged.
I would look at a better flex plate while you are at it to maybe keep it from moving so much? Or do you have a good flexplate now?
Ron
I would look at a better flex plate while you are at it to maybe keep it from moving so much? Or do you have a good flexplate now?
Ron
#23
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Get a different converter. Ive had one that took out pumps in trannys and Ive had one that took out thrust bearings in engines. Best thing you can do is get rid of it.
Not so sure the flexplate moving forward is the problem as much as letting off the gas and the converter slamming back into the trans.
If you have to pull the converter 1/4", and loading the trans with boost moves the converter forward enough to pull the converter out of the pump, is shimming 1/8" going to solve the issue? That would be going from disengaged or nearly disengaged from the tangs to barely engaged.
I would look at a better flex plate while you are at it to maybe keep it from moving so much? Or do you have a good flexplate now?
Ron
I would look at a better flex plate while you are at it to maybe keep it from moving so much? Or do you have a good flexplate now?
Ron
Last edited by pwrtrip75; 03-26-2013 at 06:06 AM.
#24
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This is from the Rossler website, I fallow his specs when spacing converters and I will use the thick grade 8 washers if needed along with new longer hardware if I am changing it that much. Just make sure if you do space it back alot that you still have plenty of pilot engagement. You can check that on the bench with the flex-plate off the car once you know the converter spacing.
#25
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[QUOTE=pwrtrip75;17261695]Get a different converter. Ive had one that took out pumps in trannys and Ive had one that took out thrust bearings in engines. Best thing you can do is get rid of it.
QUOTE]
this guy may be up to something.
is this their $900 converter or the $450 one?
Im asking because your last passes are showing far more slip than the typical turbo slip converter numbers Ive seen.
Good luck with the rebuild man. Please let us know what they find.
QUOTE]
this guy may be up to something.
is this their $900 converter or the $450 one?
Im asking because your last passes are showing far more slip than the typical turbo slip converter numbers Ive seen.
Good luck with the rebuild man. Please let us know what they find.
#26
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This is from the Rossler website, I fallow his specs when spacing converters and I will use the thick grade 8 washers if needed along with new longer hardware if I am changing it that much. Just make sure if you do space it back alot that you still have plenty of pilot engagement. You can check that on the bench with the flex-plate off the car once you know the converter spacing.
#27
Teching In
Make sure that the converter has an "anti ballooning plate". When the converter balloons, it will also moves forward pulling further out of the pump giving less engagement into the pump gear. Was the same converter used in all the failed transmissions? I would also check the crank shaft thrust. When a converter balloons it also loads the thrust main bearing, sometimes wiping it out. There is a Youtube video that shows it. Kinda cool to watch. Most $400 converters don't have them.
#28
My convertor was the expensive one. I am very, very pleased with my convertor. I am not going to get the terminology correct but He showed me something that said the convertor is NOT engaged enough.....meaning I am pulling it out to far when I am bolting it to the flywheel. If that Rossler is correct I have way to much gap. It showed that I needed the convertor to engage about another 8th inch. The builder said to use an 1/8" washer and it should be fine. He is tearing it apart and going to check it all out and put it back together tomorrow. The pump was also ruined. It did push into the pump but he said when it didn't fully engage it actually locked in the ring instead of seeding itself. I appologize for not knowing the correct terminology. lol. He tore it apart in front of me and it was obvious what was damaged. It was the two notches on the ring and the pump had been grinded down a little. He was very convinced that if I shim the convertor with a washer it will be fine.
Of course the pump and ring will be replaced.
Of course the pump and ring will be replaced.
#29
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Here ya go. TH400, but nearly identical.
The 2 gears and the housing pump the oil. Not too dissimilar from the oil pump in your LQ4.
The two tangs in the inner gear are what mate with the two slots in the end of the converter snout.
Those tangs are about 3/8" deep.
Ron
The 2 gears and the housing pump the oil. Not too dissimilar from the oil pump in your LQ4.
The two tangs in the inner gear are what mate with the two slots in the end of the converter snout.
Those tangs are about 3/8" deep.
Ron
#30
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My convertor was the expensive one. I am very, very pleased with my convertor. I am not going to get the terminology correct but He showed me something that said the convertor is NOT engaged enough.....meaning I am pulling it out to far when I am bolting it to the flywheel. If that Rossler is correct I have way to much gap. It showed that I needed the convertor to engage about another 8th inch. The builder said to use an 1/8" washer and it should be fine. He is tearing it apart and going to check it all out and put it back together tomorrow. The pump was also ruined. It did push into the pump but he said when it didn't fully engage it actually locked in the ring instead of seeding itself. I appologize for not knowing the correct terminology. lol. He tore it apart in front of me and it was obvious what was damaged. It was the two notches on the ring and the pump had been grinded down a little. He was very convinced that if I shim the convertor with a washer it will be fine.
Of course the pump and ring will be replaced.
Of course the pump and ring will be replaced.
A different situation, different converter, reputable name brand and their more expensive one. Took a different friends pump out, split the gear in half. Trans was taken to reputable trans shop. New pump put in, converter inspected, found nothing VISIBLY wrong, then converter sent back to manufacture. Supposedly they went through it and found nothing wrong.
Everything put back together very much correct. Took the pump out again.
I dont know the process in which they test these converters, Im curious to know if they have the ability to see the thrust force that is created when testing it not on a car? And if 1 out of however many is bad, do they know what to look for if a converter is doing this?
And if you send it back..... is the right person looking at it? Im guessing a converter could be taken apart and look perfect inside to someone that doesnt know exactly what to look for. Unless its a common thing perhaps not all employees at these converter places are experienced with dealing with this situation?
I know of the 2 converters my friends and I sent back one returned with the same paint and scratches on it as when it was sent out... they claimed is was 100% good. Not sure if they put it on some machine and tested it and it passed that test so they just sent it back? The 3rd pump was put back in that trans and back in car w/ that converter. After a couple hits the pump had a slight whine to it in the trans....car was then sold as is.
But id be very leary with what the converter manufacture says is "good". A few of them do not have the experience with controlling the thrust pressure.
Last edited by pwrtrip75; 03-27-2013 at 06:24 AM.
#31
TECH Enthusiast
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Since you have the converter out, see if the trans builder or send it to PTC and have them check the runout on the converter. A friend of mine had to much runout on the converter and it took out 3 pumps within a few months. I really think that it is just a problem with the gap between the converter and flexplate. Good luck to you with the problem and I hope it gets taken care of.
#32
Thanks Ron for posting and others for chiming in. I'll try the convertor one more time before I send it in. The only reason is on all three transmissions I never used a washer to close the gap so it doesn't surprise me I have issues. Plus, the convertor works so damn good I would hate to have anyone even touch this thing. My builder is convinced it is the gap so we will give it a shot. Only cost me $140 to fix it this time and that is with a new pump, ring, band.
He did say that I was showing some heat though and was surprised with me using O'reilly's 303 hydraulic tractor fluid. Just to be safe I think I am going to use the John Deer brand. Does anyone know specificially what I need to ask for other than John Deer Hydraguard Tractor Oil?
Thanks. Should have it back in tomorrow. Just picked it up.
He did say that I was showing some heat though and was surprised with me using O'reilly's 303 hydraulic tractor fluid. Just to be safe I think I am going to use the John Deer brand. Does anyone know specificially what I need to ask for other than John Deer Hydraguard Tractor Oil?
Thanks. Should have it back in tomorrow. Just picked it up.
#34
Thanks for posting all. I am putting the trans back into day as I get time.
#38
Yes, I have a 2 step. My builder thinks my the main problem was not using spacers. After doing the drill bit test, I actually needed two washers. So I am sure that was the problem. The getting hot issue wasn't real bad just something he noticed. My stall is only a 3400-3600 and I have the 2 step set for 4k-4200. He said overstalling it is what is probably causing the issue but it wasn't bad.
I got the trans in with the 2 washer spacer and 4 quarts of O'reilly's 303 tractor fluid. I was at a stopping point and left it there. In the morning I will get the starter on, charge the battery and fire it up and drive it around. Should be racing it on Saturday again if all goes well. If no 5's, I have new 7lbs spring arriving on Monday and I will just up the boost from 10 to 14lbs. That should more than take care of anything it lacks off the line.
Thanks again for all the help. Now I officially know how to space up the convertor. It took a while. lol
I got the trans in with the 2 washer spacer and 4 quarts of O'reilly's 303 tractor fluid. I was at a stopping point and left it there. In the morning I will get the starter on, charge the battery and fire it up and drive it around. Should be racing it on Saturday again if all goes well. If no 5's, I have new 7lbs spring arriving on Monday and I will just up the boost from 10 to 14lbs. That should more than take care of anything it lacks off the line.
Thanks again for all the help. Now I officially know how to space up the convertor. It took a while. lol
#39
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Im with ya on the spacing, i burnt up 2 trannys and broke one converter before i figured out it was the spacing in my old car.
I will say though , you say your converter is a 3400-3600 but from the video i would have guessed it was a 4000+. It sounds really loose. even before your on the brake it seems you can still footbreak it 3500+ ,just an observation.
I will say though , you say your converter is a 3400-3600 but from the video i would have guessed it was a 4000+. It sounds really loose. even before your on the brake it seems you can still footbreak it 3500+ ,just an observation.
#40
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If the convertor spacing is not right it will trash the pump every time. you want to pull the convertor out 1/8 and no more than 3/16 if you have a 1/4" gap you need to measure the pilot to make sure its long enough to engage the crank by at least 3/16 to not move around and again break the pump.