Self tuning Forced induction is here! Sorry dyno tuners, :(
02-21-2014, 09:28 PM
#61
You thing I think that keeps getting missed is the MSD is NOT like the holley where you can plug it into a laptop and open the tune and make changes. With the MSD you can only pick from some preset choices on injectors, cam, map, 24x or 58x and your WOT a/f..etc. Thats not every single option, but you get the idea. If its not an option on the handheld controller you cant change it or access it. The self tuning that keeps getting advertised applies really only to the fuel tables using feedback from the single wideband O2 sensor.
02-21-2014, 09:45 PM
#62
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You thing I think that keeps getting missed is the MSD is NOT like the holley where you can plug it into a laptop and open the tune and make changes. With the MSD you can only pick from some preset choices on injectors, cam, map, 24x or 58x and your WOT a/f..etc. Thats not every single option, but you get the idea. If its not an option on the handheld controller you cant change it or access it. The self tuning that keeps getting advertised applies really only to the fuel tables using feedback from the single wideband O2 sensor.
02-22-2014, 05:41 AM
#65
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While this doesn't eliminate chassis tuning all together and i wouldn't want it to, there will always be a need for that,i was just tryin to get your attention with the title. 
What i'm talkin about is MSD Atomic EFI for LS guys. (also in TB version) I'm mentioning it because i wanna shout it from the rooftop how amazing i think this is! Im actually very surprised how little mention there is of it on here. Unless i just haven't seen it.
While not for every FI setup i know but for alot of the "budget FI" and bigger (is supporting 1000 HP good enough for ya?) builds going on here i just wanna mention it in case some of you guys haven't heard of it. Can you imagine no trips to the tuner EVERY time you make a change in your setup? IE cam,heads,injectors,boost etc. Install any LS in your car,build or install ANY FI kit at home yourself, answer a few questions on your hand held programmer (no laptop required) turn the key and go tare **** up! ****** amazing i say! This is the reason i haven't built a fuel injected or especially FI setup yet cuz of having get a tune or retune every damn time u make a change. It does have the possibility of being the most expensive single part of your build @ $2500,lol. Just think of what it can do either NA or FI and all the trips to the dyno you WON'T have to make ! You can check out an article in Car Craft magazine (january 2014) they tuned a stock crate LS3 to 660HP/700LB ! Mine ill be sitting atop my 5.3 single turbo 70 Chevelle.
Lemme know what you guys think
What i'm talkin about is MSD Atomic EFI for LS guys. (also in TB version) I'm mentioning it because i wanna shout it from the rooftop how amazing i think this is! Im actually very surprised how little mention there is of it on here. Unless i just haven't seen it. While not for every FI setup i know but for alot of the "budget FI" and bigger (is supporting 1000 HP good enough for ya?) builds going on here i just wanna mention it in case some of you guys haven't heard of it. Can you imagine no trips to the tuner EVERY time you make a change in your setup? IE cam,heads,injectors,boost etc. Install any LS in your car,build or install ANY FI kit at home yourself, answer a few questions on your hand held programmer (no laptop required) turn the key and go tare **** up! ****** amazing i say! This is the reason i haven't built a fuel injected or especially FI setup yet cuz of having get a tune or retune every damn time u make a change. It does have the possibility of being the most expensive single part of your build @ $2500,lol. Just think of what it can do either NA or FI and all the trips to the dyno you WON'T have to make ! You can check out an article in Car Craft magazine (january 2014) they tuned a stock crate LS3 to 660HP/700LB ! Mine ill be sitting atop my 5.3 single turbo 70 Chevelle.
Lemme know what you guys think
02-22-2014, 06:44 AM
#66
without reading every reply I will say I have holley efi & love it. It was worth every penny to me.
It has taught me so much about tuning. You still have to put in the some info to start it yes, but you give it a desired afr & it will maintain it even if you fuel table is way off.
Im no professional tuner and I was able to fire up a new turbo combo & get it running bottom 9s at the track without ever taking it to a dyno tuner.
It has taught me so much about tuning. You still have to put in the some info to start it yes, but you give it a desired afr & it will maintain it even if you fuel table is way off.
Im no professional tuner and I was able to fire up a new turbo combo & get it running bottom 9s at the track without ever taking it to a dyno tuner.
02-22-2014, 07:14 AM
#67
I completely agree with you and your totally correct. And the good thing for the areas you can't access is to keep guys from getting waay off course on a tune and messin with **** they shouldn't. lol Buuut,it's also not a good thing for tuners that want/need to make changes that do know what they're doin. This is designed for the "car guy" (<--MSD's words) that has a basic efi knowledge that wanna get up and running quickly and safely.
I am hands on, now I am actually telling someone/something to change, vs me changing-the carb went from idle, to trans., to WOT-I didn't care how many pounds an hour of fuel it took, or all the diff AFR changes it took to get there-I threw on the LM-1, read what AFR's I saw, changed jets
the MSD 6010 was great on a boosted LS, plotted a nice timing curve on the graph based off the map sensor, tuned fuel off the LM-1
so I could see where a learning device like the Atomic would have been the better choice for me, less is better, if it would handle my input-I have had 10-15 Procharged cars, so I pretty much knew what timing, AFR's I wanted
as a base-would I use another system like the Holley, etc, or go back to a carb? hard to say, although I am much more fam. now with the HP and do love the features, just hate driving around with a laptop in case it decides to mess with me, lol-not all of us are computer savvy, but we know what we want the car to do
02-22-2014, 09:04 AM
#68
I really know nothing about EFI or FI, and with the Holley HP I was up and running litterally in minutes and its runs great. All I did was adjust the AFR tables to what I want for a FI deal and that was it. Really easy. So for me, it was "self tuning". Now, "dyno tuning" is another story. I plan on moving the AFR/timing #'s around at the track to see what happens, but I think the 11.5AFR/12* timing like most folks run here will get me to the 95% optimal and I'll call it a day and move on with my life.
02-22-2014, 11:24 AM
#69
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The problem with the above, is if you are totally reliant on closed loop achieving fuel targets and the main tables have never been set...if you start to get a dodgy sensor your engine will go bang.
And there are many things that can cause a sensor to read wrong or go bad.
Blindly trying to tune with no oversight as to what is going on will bite you eventually.
And there are many things that can cause a sensor to read wrong or go bad.
Blindly trying to tune with no oversight as to what is going on will bite you eventually.
02-22-2014, 11:53 AM
#70
The problem with the above, is if you are totally reliant on closed loop achieving fuel targets and the main tables have never been set...if you start to get a dodgy sensor your engine will go bang.
And there are many things that can cause a sensor to read wrong or go bad.
Blindly trying to tune with no oversight as to what is going on will bite you eventually.
And there are many things that can cause a sensor to read wrong or go bad.
Blindly trying to tune with no oversight as to what is going on will bite you eventually.
But, I take it easy at first letting the system do its thing, adding a bit of rpm to each pull. Doesnt take long at all till the fuel tables are adjusted. You can have a couple of failsafes programmed it for the oversight.
Again, I'm pretty much a newb with EFI/FI and wouldnt of even attempted this w/o this or a similar system b/c I dont have the time or desire to get WAY involved in EFI theory. And unfortunately, EVERYTHING I farm out, wheather its welding on a sump, rear end work etc ALWAYS turns out to be a disaster when someone else does it for me. So far I've been able to pull the EFI thing off by myself with the help of some internet friends
02-22-2014, 06:59 PM
#72
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The proper term is actually self "learning". The ecu learns the environment and driving of the vehicle, plus making those adjustments at sea level or at higher elevations. Its constantly "learning". Your assumptions of what your inputs do and don't do couldn't be more wrong. Within the self learning units, there are basic tables loaded. The MSD unit has 20+ pre mapped tables based on different levels of modifications. I'm unsure of the Holley unit as I havent spent the time with them on the phone to gather the information. The information the user enters into the hand held controller is there to help assist the closest map to "self learn" and make adjustments to fuel and spark tables. In other words, you could enter in the most jacked up values and the most extreme and its not going to grenade the motor.
Another really interesting thing about the Atomic LS is the injectors has the same factory angle. All the factory GM intakes will work and it appears that all of the Edelbrock LS injected intakes work as well. The holley intakes shift their injectors straight up and down, meaning the Atomic LS will not work on a holley intake.
http://www.holley.com/data/products/...rge300-126.jpg
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_..._angled_tb.pdf
I wasn't aware of that prior to today as I've never used a holley intake. I'm wondering why that is?
Here is another question I thought of today but didn't have time to make a call. MSD is the parent company of RacePak. For us drag racers, its the premier data logging hardware/software available. Given that MSD owns RacePak, do they have the same downloadable capabilities and can I transfer the data from the SD card to my laptop and view all the tables?
Guess I'll wait till Monday to find out!
Another really interesting thing about the Atomic LS is the injectors has the same factory angle. All the factory GM intakes will work and it appears that all of the Edelbrock LS injected intakes work as well. The holley intakes shift their injectors straight up and down, meaning the Atomic LS will not work on a holley intake.
http://www.holley.com/data/products/...rge300-126.jpg
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_..._angled_tb.pdf
I wasn't aware of that prior to today as I've never used a holley intake. I'm wondering why that is?
Here is another question I thought of today but didn't have time to make a call. MSD is the parent company of RacePak. For us drag racers, its the premier data logging hardware/software available. Given that MSD owns RacePak, do they have the same downloadable capabilities and can I transfer the data from the SD card to my laptop and view all the tables?
Guess I'll wait till Monday to find out!
If you enter in extreme jacked up values, it learns to meet those extreme jacked up values...
02-23-2014, 01:07 AM
#73
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Really... I think you have no clue what you are talking about - "In other words, you could enter in the most jacked up values and the most extreme and its not going to grenade the motor." Let us know how that works out for you...
If you enter in extreme jacked up values, it learns to meet those extreme jacked up values...
If you enter in extreme jacked up values, it learns to meet those extreme jacked up values...
The reality is, its not possible to hurt the motor with bad values - one extreme or another. I have installed the MSD Atomic EFI (tbi unit) and its just not possible to destroy it. In fact, when I build this Atomic LS, I'll make you a special short bus video for you to show you its not possible. Or, hey. Since you have a ton of hands on experience with it, why not make your own video.
Based on the feedback from the WB02, MAF and fuel, any value entered that isn't jiving with what the ecu is reading gets adjusted. Hence, why its called a self learning product. But hey, since you have all the hands on experience with self learning units, you already know all this. Forgive me for regurgitating the basics for you.
02-23-2014, 05:57 AM
#74
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So you have hands on experience with a self learning unit. Cool! Tell us all about it.
The reality is, its not possible to hurt the motor with bad values - one extreme or another. I have installed the MSD Atomic EFI (tbi unit) and its just not possible to destroy it. In fact, when I build this Atomic LS, I'll make you a special short bus video for you to show you its not possible. Or, hey. Since you have a ton of hands on experience with it, why not make your own video.
Based on the feedback from the WB02, MAF and fuel, any value entered that isn't jiving with what the ecu is reading gets adjusted. Hence, why its called a self learning product. But hey, since you have all the hands on experience with self learning units, you already know all this. Forgive me for regurgitating the basics for you.
The reality is, its not possible to hurt the motor with bad values - one extreme or another. I have installed the MSD Atomic EFI (tbi unit) and its just not possible to destroy it. In fact, when I build this Atomic LS, I'll make you a special short bus video for you to show you its not possible. Or, hey. Since you have a ton of hands on experience with it, why not make your own video.
Based on the feedback from the WB02, MAF and fuel, any value entered that isn't jiving with what the ecu is reading gets adjusted. Hence, why its called a self learning product. But hey, since you have all the hands on experience with self learning units, you already know all this. Forgive me for regurgitating the basics for you.
And more worrying is if these companies are giving people this perception, that is very very bad, and as said before can easily lead to disaster.
02-23-2014, 06:49 AM
#75
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without reading every reply I will say I have holley efi & love it. It was worth every penny to me.
It has taught me so much about tuning. You still have to put in the some info to start it yes, but you give it a desired afr & it will maintain it even if you fuel table is way off.
Im no professional tuner and I was able to fire up a new turbo combo & get it running bottom 9s at the track without ever taking it to a dyno tuner.
It has taught me so much about tuning. You still have to put in the some info to start it yes, but you give it a desired afr & it will maintain it even if you fuel table is way off.
Im no professional tuner and I was able to fire up a new turbo combo & get it running bottom 9s at the track without ever taking it to a dyno tuner.
I really know nothing about EFI or FI, and with the Holley HP I was up and running litterally in minutes and its runs great. All I did was adjust the AFR tables to what I want for a FI deal and that was it. Really easy. So for me, it was "self tuning". Now, "dyno tuning" is another story. I plan on moving the AFR/timing #'s around at the track to see what happens, but I think the 11.5AFR/12* timing like most folks run here will get me to the 95% optimal and I'll call it a day and move on with my life.
So you have hands on experience with a self learning unit. Cool! Tell us all about it.
The reality is, its not possible to hurt the motor with bad values - one extreme or another. I have installed the MSD Atomic EFI (tbi unit) and its just not possible to destroy it. In fact, when I build this Atomic LS, I'll make you a special short bus video for you to show you its not possible. Or, hey. Since you have a ton of hands on experience with it, why not make your own video.
Based on the feedback from the WB02, MAF and fuel, any value entered that isn't jiving with what the ecu is reading gets adjusted. Hence, why its called a self learning product. But hey, since you have all the hands on experience with self learning units, you already know all this. Forgive me for regurgitating the basics for you.
The reality is, its not possible to hurt the motor with bad values - one extreme or another. I have installed the MSD Atomic EFI (tbi unit) and its just not possible to destroy it. In fact, when I build this Atomic LS, I'll make you a special short bus video for you to show you its not possible. Or, hey. Since you have a ton of hands on experience with it, why not make your own video.
Based on the feedback from the WB02, MAF and fuel, any value entered that isn't jiving with what the ecu is reading gets adjusted. Hence, why its called a self learning product. But hey, since you have all the hands on experience with self learning units, you already know all this. Forgive me for regurgitating the basics for you.
02-23-2014, 07:08 AM
#76
Just to throw this out there...
I'm running the same EFI on my 502 Chevelle, and just used the default Holley settings for an engine of its size...12.5 AFR and 34* of timing. I all did was adjust the idle speed. After a couple of passes and the mph was the highest, I started moving the timing +/- a bit, and then leaned it to 13:1 and fattened to 12:1 to see if it would pick-up, and it didn't. So for me, the base tune was right on the money - amazing!! I was sold pretty much at this point.
I'm running the same EFI on my 502 Chevelle, and just used the default Holley settings for an engine of its size...12.5 AFR and 34* of timing. I all did was adjust the idle speed. After a couple of passes and the mph was the highest, I started moving the timing +/- a bit, and then leaned it to 13:1 and fattened to 12:1 to see if it would pick-up, and it didn't. So for me, the base tune was right on the money - amazing!! I was sold pretty much at this point.
02-23-2014, 07:10 AM
#77
9 Second Club
And you've listed those brick walls above.
People with no understanding whatsoever. There are many ways to achieve an end result. But many wrongs do not make a right even if it appears to the naive it may be right at the very end.
That is the potential problem here.
And when you have idiots claiming what I highlighted above....that just shows the potential for problems.
This has nothing to do with anyone figuring out how to tune their car. Tuning an engine is easy ! Especially with the plethora of tools and systems available these days.
But you can still get it very wrong, and total reliance n something you have no understanding of is not a good or sensible way to go about it.
But then what are you having to figure out, if these systems are supposedly self tuning ?
People with no understanding whatsoever. There are many ways to achieve an end result. But many wrongs do not make a right even if it appears to the naive it may be right at the very end.
That is the potential problem here.
And when you have idiots claiming what I highlighted above....that just shows the potential for problems.
This has nothing to do with anyone figuring out how to tune their car. Tuning an engine is easy ! Especially with the plethora of tools and systems available these days.
But you can still get it very wrong, and total reliance n something you have no understanding of is not a good or sensible way to go about it.
But then what are you having to figure out, if these systems are supposedly self tuning ?
02-23-2014, 07:51 AM
#78
I have been restraining myself from being drawn into this,Lets face it for what the OP wants this will work just fine for him,Lets face it when all of us own something we brag about it and think its the best product,Then it breaks,And well dammit,IS there some miss communication on the capabilities of what the product can do?,Most likely but calling names isn't going to make someone open to your opinion,It will just do the opposite.,If everyone knew and understood all the tables and how they interacted with the sensors to produce values for injectors and spark there would be alot of people out of business.
02-23-2014, 02:07 PM
#79
I still find it interesting that guys won't think twice about building a custom turbo setup, but are afraid to learn how to tune, or at least figure out the basics like logging data and changing tables. Granted, it's always a good idea to see the advice and help of the pro's, but you should have a good general idea of how things work. Guys won't bark at buying $1000 injectors to make 1000hp, but the thought of buying a programming suite and wideband is out of the question.
02-23-2014, 06:43 PM
#80
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I find interesting the hate for self tuning hardware. It's probably not perfect but there's plenty of so called "great tuners" out there that are just copy and paste pros. Stick it on the dyno for a few wot runs to get the VE on the money then turn on fuel trims for part throttle, next customer please. Someone could get a tune from the best tuner and then post it and everyone would find something wrong with it. Tuning isn't as easy as most people think when you start getting into a wild setup. It's nice to see something like this for people who don't have a real tuner close by.
