HELP 4.8 Bonneville motor
09-30-2014, 03:15 PM
#1
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HELP 4.8 Bonneville motor Guys I am a NuBe to LS performance engs. I want to build a eng that will be fairly serious but understand that I am leaving a lot on the table.
What I have now is two truck engs. is a 4.8 with 862 heads long bock the other also has 862 castings
a pair of 241 heads
I have run a PG/GV set up with out torque converter
I also could do a AT400/GV
I have a BS3 but it canNOT run individual coils I have a A2W two stage intercooler with a 22 gal water tank
The car has a radiator in a box for cooling with separate water pumps
I will use a Mechanical fuel pump
I am shooting for 1100 Hp for at least 45-50 seconds
I have several turbos a single 88
two pairs of BWs
one pair 75mm inducer big on exhaust
one pair 64 mm inducer normal on exh.
I will dry sump this thing, piston squirters, an most likely valve spring oilers also.
I would like suggested builds
What I have now is two truck engs. is a 4.8 with 862 heads long bock the other also has 862 castings
a pair of 241 heads
I have run a PG/GV set up with out torque converter
I also could do a AT400/GV
I have a BS3 but it canNOT run individual coils I have a A2W two stage intercooler with a 22 gal water tank
The car has a radiator in a box for cooling with separate water pumps
I will use a Mechanical fuel pump
I am shooting for 1100 Hp for at least 45-50 seconds
I have several turbos a single 88
two pairs of BWs
one pair 75mm inducer big on exhaust
one pair 64 mm inducer normal on exh.
I will dry sump this thing, piston squirters, an most likely valve spring oilers also.
I would like suggested builds
10-01-2014, 10:32 AM
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my opinion would be to go as large on the exhaust housing as you can go(within reason) to keep back pressure down so you can free up free hp as quick spool on a bonneville car is probably not a concern. I am assuming this is a budget build? so keeping stock bottom end I would put arp rod bolts in it, and head studs.
What are you planning to fire the coils with since your bs3 will not do it?
What are you planning to fire the coils with since your bs3 will not do it?
10-01-2014, 10:48 AM
#3
Is there anyway you can send the BS3 box in to have the ignition upgraded to COP?
To sustain that kind of power for that long you will have to build the bottom end. I just don't see a SBE being able to stay together for that long under sustained load.
What are the specs on the single 88? Turbine wheel dimensions, exhaust housing AR, cast or billet compressor wheel?
To sustain that kind of power for that long you will have to build the bottom end. I just don't see a SBE being able to stay together for that long under sustained load.
What are the specs on the single 88? Turbine wheel dimensions, exhaust housing AR, cast or billet compressor wheel?
10-01-2014, 11:05 AM
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Thanks for the come back.
I have built 45 deg log manifolds for my BBC using 2" weld ells.
I have the truck manifolds and a pair of Corvette SS manifolds off ebay that I am thinking of using
you are correct we cannot hook up in low gear hence the PG with no torque converter. I must bring the intake directly over the back of the eng
thoughts on using a:
single plane manifold if so use the trickflow and a1100 throttle body or a 90 deg with a 105 tb
or the new Holley set up that looks like an anteater
I May be just as well off buying a new LS specific ecu and harness
GUYS please chime in
the only experience I have with Turbo and LS is what I have read---I am pretty up to speed on BBC na but have NO build experience with LS
My thoughts on a 4.8
level:
1. stock 241 heads, valve springs, and rocker trunions, rod bolts and BLP piston oilers
2. LSX or Dart block with a special ordered crank with the square port heads this would be over two years block one heads 2nd
3. all out would be using the MAST heads---would have to have an eng partner
I have built 45 deg log manifolds for my BBC using 2" weld ells.
I have the truck manifolds and a pair of Corvette SS manifolds off ebay that I am thinking of using
you are correct we cannot hook up in low gear hence the PG with no torque converter. I must bring the intake directly over the back of the eng
thoughts on using a:
single plane manifold if so use the trickflow and a1100 throttle body or a 90 deg with a 105 tb
or the new Holley set up that looks like an anteater
I May be just as well off buying a new LS specific ecu and harness
GUYS please chime in
the only experience I have with Turbo and LS is what I have read---I am pretty up to speed on BBC na but have NO build experience with LS
My thoughts on a 4.8
level:
1. stock 241 heads, valve springs, and rocker trunions, rod bolts and BLP piston oilers
2. LSX or Dart block with a special ordered crank with the square port heads this would be over two years block one heads 2nd
3. all out would be using the MAST heads---would have to have an eng partner
Last edited by sparky 2211; 10-01-2014 at 11:07 AM. Reason: PS
10-01-2014, 11:50 AM
#5
Truck manifolds will work just fine. I have them on my radial car and we have them on several other customers cars as well. We have built turbo manifolds before too, and they can also work. Really just comes down to if you want to fabricate them, spend the time to do it, buy the materials etc. etc. etc. Or just bolt on the truck manifolds.
I would personally use the Holley intake and you may even just grab the base and fabricate a top for it so that you can design and build the top to suit your plenum volume requirements that a motor like this will need.
As far as the ECU goes, an aftermarket ECU is what I would want on something like this just for the fail safes and data logging capabilities. Going WOT for 50 seconds with 1100hp I would really want to have as much data logging capacity as possible to keep an eye on engine parameters.
You may even look into the "new" FuelTech engine management system. A few of the heavy hitters in the radial world have made the switch and seem to really like it. That said you already have a BS3 which should have the ability to be upgraded to COP, but I'm not 100% on if that's possible or not.
I would also highly recommend looking into a set of heads with a thicker deck surface and more casting rigidity than 241 heads. I would be pursuing options in the aftermarket on a build like this in lieu of stock castings. You might look into LSA/LS9 castings if you can't quite budget a nice set of aftermarket castings. I decided to use them on my build based on the "Rotocast" process GM does that supposedly makes them much more robust and strengthens the casting. I actually weighed a LS3 casting vs. a LSA casting and the LSA casting weighed almost 3 pounds more.
If you did go with square port heads you'll need a minimum bore diameter of 4.060 and if you can go larger(which with an aftermarket block is no issue) I would. Big bore with a short stroke would be ideal IMO.
Hope this helps as it sounds like a very cool build!
I would personally use the Holley intake and you may even just grab the base and fabricate a top for it so that you can design and build the top to suit your plenum volume requirements that a motor like this will need.
As far as the ECU goes, an aftermarket ECU is what I would want on something like this just for the fail safes and data logging capabilities. Going WOT for 50 seconds with 1100hp I would really want to have as much data logging capacity as possible to keep an eye on engine parameters.
You may even look into the "new" FuelTech engine management system. A few of the heavy hitters in the radial world have made the switch and seem to really like it. That said you already have a BS3 which should have the ability to be upgraded to COP, but I'm not 100% on if that's possible or not.
I would also highly recommend looking into a set of heads with a thicker deck surface and more casting rigidity than 241 heads. I would be pursuing options in the aftermarket on a build like this in lieu of stock castings. You might look into LSA/LS9 castings if you can't quite budget a nice set of aftermarket castings. I decided to use them on my build based on the "Rotocast" process GM does that supposedly makes them much more robust and strengthens the casting. I actually weighed a LS3 casting vs. a LSA casting and the LSA casting weighed almost 3 pounds more.
If you did go with square port heads you'll need a minimum bore diameter of 4.060 and if you can go larger(which with an aftermarket block is no issue) I would. Big bore with a short stroke would be ideal IMO.
Hope this helps as it sounds like a very cool build!
10-01-2014, 12:12 PM
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Thanks now we are getting toward the things that I was hoping for making me aware of the things that will work and the areas that I need to be aware of like the head deck thickness it sounds like I need consider at least the 6.2 blocks bore if I am going to put good heads and lean on it
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10-02-2014, 11:06 AM
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I have a buddy who races a Corvette at B'Ville has been 238 with a NA 420 inch motor
one of his Club buddies is Shirley Dickey who has lots of LSX experience that was his recommendation.--Also recommended calling WCCH and getting their read recomedation.
one of his Club buddies is Shirley Dickey who has lots of LSX experience that was his recommendation.--Also recommended calling WCCH and getting their read recomedation.
10-02-2014, 12:18 PM
#9
My thoughts on a 4.8
level:
1. stock 241 heads, valve springs, and rocker trunions, rod bolts and BLP piston oilers
2. LSX or Dart block with a special ordered crank with the square port heads this would be over two years block one heads 2nd
3. all out would be using the MAST heads---would have to have an eng partner
level:
1. stock 241 heads, valve springs, and rocker trunions, rod bolts and BLP piston oilers
2. LSX or Dart block with a special ordered crank with the square port heads this would be over two years block one heads 2nd
3. all out would be using the MAST heads---would have to have an eng partner
How heavy is the chassis?
What is the speed goal?
Can you run alcohol based fuels?
What year are your 4.8’s?
How high do you need to rev the motor to hit your desired speeds?
Does it really need to make that much power sustained for 50 seconds? Wouldn’t you be working up to peak power/rpm over that period of time? I’d think you could run very little boost up to 100 or so for traction purposes, then progressively add boost over the rest of the run to go for your peak speeds? That would limit the amount of time the motor saw huge power.
10-02-2014, 06:07 PM
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2.14 rear gears 24.5" tires PG/GV 1.76 1.00 .78 for a 1.66 top gear shift at 8000 through the traps at 6850
With my old na 930 hp BBC I was running 200 by the first mile around 270 at the 2.25 the last 40 seconds it's pulling its guts out to gain 700 rpm
My target seed is 300 by the 4 and carry it for 12 seconds to get to the 5 Out traps are 1 mile
With my old na 930 hp BBC I was running 200 by the first mile around 270 at the 2.25 the last 40 seconds it's pulling its guts out to gain 700 rpm
My target seed is 300 by the 4 and carry it for 12 seconds to get to the 5 Out traps are 1 mile
10-03-2014, 08:24 AM
#11
Man I wish I lived closer to some flats, sounds like a blast! What is the race weight? Pictures of the chassis?
I think you’ll be hard pressed to top those speeds with a factory 4.8, turbo or not… I’d be real curious to see how long a SBE would last at big power levels in those conditions. As long as you could keep the coolant/inlet temps down, I’d think a long progressive pass would be easier on a motor than WOT ¼ mile blasts. Some sort of water injection along with the A2W IC would probably work great. Maybe have a separate valve/controller to bring the boost levels up slowly over the run. Will be very cool to see how far you could push a stock bottom end turbo 4.8. I’m sure Bragging rights on a Sub $1000 engine would be priceless out there.
Keep up posted…
I think you’ll be hard pressed to top those speeds with a factory 4.8, turbo or not… I’d be real curious to see how long a SBE would last at big power levels in those conditions. As long as you could keep the coolant/inlet temps down, I’d think a long progressive pass would be easier on a motor than WOT ¼ mile blasts. Some sort of water injection along with the A2W IC would probably work great. Maybe have a separate valve/controller to bring the boost levels up slowly over the run. Will be very cool to see how far you could push a stock bottom end turbo 4.8. I’m sure Bragging rights on a Sub $1000 engine would be priceless out there.
Keep up posted…
10-04-2014, 10:26 AM
#12
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You could always get an LY6. Iron block 6.0 with rectangle port heads. Then swap in 4.8 rods and crank.
You'll be back down near 5.3L with high rpm capability thanks to the short stroke and great rod/stroke ratio, and you'll have the better flowing heads.
Just food for thought. Great setup on a budget.
You'll be back down near 5.3L with high rpm capability thanks to the short stroke and great rod/stroke ratio, and you'll have the better flowing heads.
Just food for thought. Great setup on a budget.
10-04-2014, 06:48 PM
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Up date I found a early 6.0 with iron heads I have a bid in on it If I can get it Will use those heads for the 292 I also found a set of late model 4.8 rods I think I can swap for. I haven't decided on what to do on manifold and spark yet. I will put piston oilers in and and probabally a takeout factor blower cam with my beat up 88 mm turbo it got dropped and the exaust flange is damaged, I got off ebay for 375---well 410 with frt to keep the price down I will run this thing with stock recps. I think I can get done what I need to at El Mirage 1 1/3 mile on dirt for this I will use my At 400 I can get where I need to at 65-6700 so I will run Hyd rollers and some heavier springs with ss valves. for this race I should need about 850
12-24-2014, 11:10 PM
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have been busy on line researching and talking to suppliers:
this looks to me the best way to go at this point to just get started:
1. Offset grind the crank to 3.18
2. bore one of my 5.3 blocks to 3.9
3. Callies has a 6.340 rod that is for a 2.0 crank pin
4. this lets me use the 3.903 .927 small end pistons that are available in all kinds of tops--- this should give me the leeway to get my c.r. where I need it
5. I have dropped off a complete eng at Ron's Fuel Injection in Tucson so they can prototype so pump mounting brackets for a mechanical pumps.
6. I have ordered a dry sump pan from Avaid with the pickups on the drivers side
7 I most likely will use my intake from my early 6.0 to start with.
8. I have one of GM dist drive housings that we are most likely going to use for the spark so that I can use the BS3 I already have.
9. To start with I will most likely use the 241s or the Iron 6.0 heads that I have already.
Again I welcome all all thoughts and sugestions!!!!!!!!! on this little 304 ci witch I am trying to do! I am shooting for just a little over 1000 dyno
This
this looks to me the best way to go at this point to just get started:
1. Offset grind the crank to 3.18
2. bore one of my 5.3 blocks to 3.9
3. Callies has a 6.340 rod that is for a 2.0 crank pin
4. this lets me use the 3.903 .927 small end pistons that are available in all kinds of tops--- this should give me the leeway to get my c.r. where I need it
5. I have dropped off a complete eng at Ron's Fuel Injection in Tucson so they can prototype so pump mounting brackets for a mechanical pumps.
6. I have ordered a dry sump pan from Avaid with the pickups on the drivers side
7 I most likely will use my intake from my early 6.0 to start with.
8. I have one of GM dist drive housings that we are most likely going to use for the spark so that I can use the BS3 I already have.
9. To start with I will most likely use the 241s or the Iron 6.0 heads that I have already.
Again I welcome all all thoughts and sugestions!!!!!!!!! on this little 304 ci witch I am trying to do! I am shooting for just a little over 1000 dyno
This
Last edited by sparky 2211; 12-24-2014 at 11:12 PM. Reason: update
12-26-2014, 09:58 AM
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Wow I must have had to much egg nog the other night,, what was I thinking, I know better than trying to run high cyl. pressure with thin cyl. walls. So back to the drawing boards.
IF I am going to run a low bucks motor this year-- it will just have to be with a 3.78 or 3.8 bore and the stock 4.8 crank I will still need 6.300 rods but lots of folks have them. I am just going to have to accept that I will not get high flow numbers without an LSX block, and a custom short crank to get to less than 305 cu. in., where I would like to start.
This is early in the AM and now I just got back form a family gathering my where my niece's husband was telling me about his version of "going to the dark side"---he is ripping his 60s Fairlane apart and building a LSX 427 twin turbo set up for the Gila Bend 1/2 and The Texas Mile. His other toy is a Shelby GT 500 that he likes to flail on.
IF I am going to run a low bucks motor this year-- it will just have to be with a 3.78 or 3.8 bore and the stock 4.8 crank I will still need 6.300 rods but lots of folks have them. I am just going to have to accept that I will not get high flow numbers without an LSX block, and a custom short crank to get to less than 305 cu. in., where I would like to start.
This is early in the AM and now I just got back form a family gathering my where my niece's husband was telling me about his version of "going to the dark side"---he is ripping his 60s Fairlane apart and building a LSX 427 twin turbo set up for the Gila Bend 1/2 and The Texas Mile. His other toy is a Shelby GT 500 that he likes to flail on.
12-26-2014, 10:15 AM
#16
Hey my car is being worked on by Jim and Todd at H&D motorsports. They build Bonneville cars... they just built a new one called "the spirit of durango" a camaro. .. they plan to beat some 250mph record this next year.
They are also converting there 57 blown big block Chevy to race next year... I'll be out there maybe I'll see u run
They are also converting there 57 blown big block Chevy to race next year... I'll be out there maybe I'll see u run
12-27-2014, 11:49 PM
#18
I'm not sure what class they run. They race every year though... always something different.(rear engine dragster to promod), there new car cost them $150k to build, and they do ALL there own work. They make some sick front lips too. I will be there Monday and ask what class they run... the new camaro they built has some quick shift over trans. Whatever that means lol but they say they are going to break that 250 record and plan to exceed it by at least 10 mph...I'll ask them what class it is
Last edited by ws6turbo; 12-28-2014 at 12:41 AM.
12-28-2014, 12:07 AM
#19
http://www.durangoherald.com/apps/pb...late=mobileart
Here is a article about the car. It tells what class and records they ate after. It says they are hauling it in there penske nascar hauler (that they used when his kid was in nascar). .. but really they got it loaded in a sick *** hauler with the blown 57 Chevy. .. so it will be there in there personal all white nascar rig with no markings not the penske rig...
Here is a article about the car. It tells what class and records they ate after. It says they are hauling it in there penske nascar hauler (that they used when his kid was in nascar). .. but really they got it loaded in a sick *** hauler with the blown 57 Chevy. .. so it will be there in there personal all white nascar rig with no markings not the penske rig...
Last edited by ws6turbo; 12-28-2014 at 12:39 AM.
12-28-2014, 12:33 AM
#20
Here's there website.. there older guys so it's not very good web site.
http://handdmotorsports.com/our-team.html
I'm glad to have these guys work on my car. ..and at only $80 a hour for what they do..! A regular mechanics is $100 a hour here and they are far from regular.
Thanks to them my car is not just another hacked up f body. . Its actually legit and professionally built. .
Wait til u see the camaro in person next year.. u will probably want them to fab you up a front spoiler. ..it's so sexy! Its a **** hair off the ground lol
The 57 will be there too but just to show off there work(it has a mopar big block). ..the camaro will be getting test runs
http://handdmotorsports.com/our-team.html
I'm glad to have these guys work on my car. ..and at only $80 a hour for what they do..! A regular mechanics is $100 a hour here and they are far from regular.
Thanks to them my car is not just another hacked up f body. . Its actually legit and professionally built. .
Wait til u see the camaro in person next year.. u will probably want them to fab you up a front spoiler. ..it's so sexy! Its a **** hair off the ground lol
The 57 will be there too but just to show off there work(it has a mopar big block). ..the camaro will be getting test runs
Last edited by ws6turbo; 12-28-2014 at 12:43 AM.