Supercharger vs Turbo.... OFFICIAL ARGUMENT THREAD.
07-19-2016, 02:10 AM
#221
Take a leaf blower or even a hair drier. Turn them on at full speed and listen to the motor. Now hold your hand over the outlet and listen to the motor. The rpm goes way up with the air flow blocked, because there is no drag. There is no drag because it is not moving any air. Same concept with a blower.
It is very confusing to people when you first tell them this, as most want to say "free flowing into air provides less resistance, but the fact is this: Any fan that has the air flow blocked is not moving any air, so there is no resistance, hence the rpm going up (in the case of a leaf blower) or the needed drive power going to zero (in the case of a centri blower).
This was actually tested by Steve Morris. He made a set up that was able to measure the drive power needed to spin certain prochargers at different boost levels by using restrictors at the outlet. An F2 procharger for example takes around 250-300 horsepower to turn at max recommended speed. When he ran the test with the blower totally blocked at the outlet, drive power skyrocketed.
I miss typed here guys and totally contradicted myself. When the test was run with the blower totally blocked at the outlet, drive power went to zero. When free flowed the drive power skyrocketed.
Last edited by Blown06; 07-20-2016 at 01:31 AM.
07-19-2016, 05:23 AM
#222
A simple real world test to show this concept......
Take a leaf blower or even a hair drier. Turn them on at full speed and listen to the motor. Now hold your hand over the outlet and listen to the motor. The rpm goes way up with the air flow blocked, because there is no drag. There is no drag because it is not moving any air. Same concept with a blower.
It is very confusing to people when you first tell them this, as most want to say "free flowing into air provides less resistance, but the fact is this: Any fan that has the air flow blocked is not moving any air, so there is no resistance, hence the rpm going up (in the case of a leaf blower) or the needed drive power going to zero (in the case of a centri blower).
This was actually tested by Steve Morris. He made a set up that was able to measure the drive power needed to spin certain prochargers at different boost levels by using restrictors at the outlet. An F2 procharger for example takes around 250-300 horsepower to turn at max recommended speed. When he ran the test with the blower totally blocked at the outlet, drive power skyrocketed.
Take a leaf blower or even a hair drier. Turn them on at full speed and listen to the motor. Now hold your hand over the outlet and listen to the motor. The rpm goes way up with the air flow blocked, because there is no drag. There is no drag because it is not moving any air. Same concept with a blower.
It is very confusing to people when you first tell them this, as most want to say "free flowing into air provides less resistance, but the fact is this: Any fan that has the air flow blocked is not moving any air, so there is no resistance, hence the rpm going up (in the case of a leaf blower) or the needed drive power going to zero (in the case of a centri blower).
This was actually tested by Steve Morris. He made a set up that was able to measure the drive power needed to spin certain prochargers at different boost levels by using restrictors at the outlet. An F2 procharger for example takes around 250-300 horsepower to turn at max recommended speed. When he ran the test with the blower totally blocked at the outlet, drive power skyrocketed.
07-19-2016, 05:40 AM
#223
I wonder if there is a 'optimum' range of pressure to where the blower is most efficient... actually I know there is a range, but no one has access to that information outside of Procharger themselves.
For example, which takes more energy to spin at the same rpm, a d1/f1 etc on a 346 or a 427 motor? Obviously on the smaller motor, the boost pressure is going to be far higher as the motor can't process as much air compared to the larger cubic inch motor. For argument sake, lets just say the smaller motor sees 20psi at max rpm, and the bigger motor sees 12psi.... Which scenario is more efficient?
For example, which takes more energy to spin at the same rpm, a d1/f1 etc on a 346 or a 427 motor? Obviously on the smaller motor, the boost pressure is going to be far higher as the motor can't process as much air compared to the larger cubic inch motor. For argument sake, lets just say the smaller motor sees 20psi at max rpm, and the bigger motor sees 12psi.... Which scenario is more efficient?
07-19-2016, 06:11 AM
#224
Yes you can, but it is not smart. Puts a ton of load on the blower when the gate is open, usually resulting in premature failure. It's probably fine if you are gonna pulley for 15 psi and gate it down to 10-12, but anymore than that just puts a tremendous load on the blower, not to mention creating an unbelievable amount drag on the motor. Anytime they free flow into open air, the "horsepower needed to drive the blower" sky rockets. This can also lead to belt issues. Once you slip a belt, it tends to only get worse and worse. Because of the increased power needed to turn the blower into free air, you are more likely to have belt slip issues that just get worse with time.
The two best options for regulating power/boost on a procharged deal are either having 2 or more pulley/belt setups you can swap or limiting rpm when not racing. Most people get their panties all bunched up when you tell them to have more than one belt/pulley combo "cause it is a pain in the *** to swap". My reply to that argument is "how often do you want/need high boost? If you go to the track a few times a year, it's not that big of a deal to just swap pulleys/belts.
The two best options for regulating power/boost on a procharged deal are either having 2 or more pulley/belt setups you can swap or limiting rpm when not racing. Most people get their panties all bunched up when you tell them to have more than one belt/pulley combo "cause it is a pain in the *** to swap". My reply to that argument is "how often do you want/need high boost? If you go to the track a few times a year, it's not that big of a deal to just swap pulleys/belts.
07-19-2016, 06:53 AM
#226
I wouldn't mind doing a procharger setup but for some reason the price is astronomical compared to other cars with the same blower setup. For example you can be all in on a d1sc kit with good brackets (because the original procharger ones don't suck) for a 5.0 f150 for almost 1500-2000 less than an Fbody. And you don't have to pay extra for a front mount.
The price is what gets a lot of people when deciding to go turbo. But there are drawbacks as well. I'd prefer a procharger but don't want to spend a ton of money to get one.
The price is what gets a lot of people when deciding to go turbo. But there are drawbacks as well. I'd prefer a procharger but don't want to spend a ton of money to get one.
07-19-2016, 04:20 PM
#228
With pricing, it's pay me now, or pay me later.... unless you are a fabricator.
Sure a cheap turbo is far cheaper than a Procharger, but then you have to fabricate the hotside, move the radiator, get a k-member so you can route the exhaust, or dump it out the front fender... it all starts to add up cost wise.
Sure a cheap turbo is far cheaper than a Procharger, but then you have to fabricate the hotside, move the radiator, get a k-member so you can route the exhaust, or dump it out the front fender... it all starts to add up cost wise.
07-19-2016, 09:52 PM
#229
Well even my Huron kit with a billet turbonetics was cheaper than any new procharger kit I've seen. No moving of radiator or new k member but I do lose ac which is the biggest caviat. Not sure keeping it is worth another $1500-2000 though.
07-20-2016, 01:32 AM
#230
A simple real world test to show this concept......
Take a leaf blower or even a hair drier. Turn them on at full speed and listen to the motor. Now hold your hand over the outlet and listen to the motor. The rpm goes way up with the air flow blocked, because there is no drag. There is no drag because it is not moving any air. Same concept with a blower.
It is very confusing to people when you first tell them this, as most want to say "free flowing into air provides less resistance, but the fact is this: Any fan that has the air flow blocked is not moving any air, so there is no resistance, hence the rpm going up (in the case of a leaf blower) or the needed drive power going to zero (in the case of a centri blower).
This was actually tested by Steve Morris. He made a set up that was able to measure the drive power needed to spin certain prochargers at different boost levels by using restrictors at the outlet. An F2 procharger for example takes around 250-300 horsepower to turn at max recommended speed. When he ran the test with the blower totally blocked at the outlet, drive power skyrocketed.
I miss typed here guys and totally contradicted myself. When the test was run with the blower totally blocked at the outlet, drive power went to zero. When free flowed the drive power skyrocketed.
Take a leaf blower or even a hair drier. Turn them on at full speed and listen to the motor. Now hold your hand over the outlet and listen to the motor. The rpm goes way up with the air flow blocked, because there is no drag. There is no drag because it is not moving any air. Same concept with a blower.
It is very confusing to people when you first tell them this, as most want to say "free flowing into air provides less resistance, but the fact is this: Any fan that has the air flow blocked is not moving any air, so there is no resistance, hence the rpm going up (in the case of a leaf blower) or the needed drive power going to zero (in the case of a centri blower).
This was actually tested by Steve Morris. He made a set up that was able to measure the drive power needed to spin certain prochargers at different boost levels by using restrictors at the outlet. An F2 procharger for example takes around 250-300 horsepower to turn at max recommended speed. When he ran the test with the blower totally blocked at the outlet, drive power skyrocketed.
I miss typed here guys and totally contradicted myself. When the test was run with the blower totally blocked at the outlet, drive power went to zero. When free flowed the drive power skyrocketed.
07-20-2016, 07:14 AM
#232
With pricing, it's pay me now, or pay me later.... unless you are a fabricator.
Sure a cheap turbo is far cheaper than a Procharger, but then you have to fabricate the hotside, move the radiator, get a k-member so you can route the exhaust, or dump it out the front fender... it all starts to add up cost wise.
Sure a cheap turbo is far cheaper than a Procharger, but then you have to fabricate the hotside, move the radiator, get a k-member so you can route the exhaust, or dump it out the front fender... it all starts to add up cost wise.
Last edited by Game ova; 07-20-2016 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Pics
07-20-2016, 11:23 AM
#234
No crow necessary, this is a friendly discussion.
I'm also not down on torque either. With everything in the factory location, out a stainless works catback, I made 860hp/760 (spinning through the torque peak) with 700ft/lbs at 4000 rpm. Sure, we can pull up a lot of turbo dynos where they make more, but for me, being a street car, it's just about enough.
We've also covered the whole belt slip and crazy crank pressure topic. The aster bracket as well as other spring loaded tensioner setups have almost completely eliminated belt slip, and since it's a factory tensioner, the amount of extra tension on the crank snout isn't what I would call crazy either.
07-20-2016, 01:17 PM
#235
So is that a kit or did you do the fab work yourself?
No crow necessary, this is a friendly discussion.
I'm also not down on torque either. With everything in the factory location, out a stainless works catback, I made 860hp/760 (spinning through the torque peak) with 700ft/lbs at 4000 rpm. Sure, we can pull up a lot of turbo dynos where they make more, but for me, being a street car, it's just about enough.
We've also covered the whole belt slip and crazy crank pressure topic. The aster bracket as well as other spring loaded tensioner setups have almost completely eliminated belt slip, and since it's a factory tensioner, the amount of extra tension on the crank snout isn't what I would call crazy either.
No crow necessary, this is a friendly discussion.
I'm also not down on torque either. With everything in the factory location, out a stainless works catback, I made 860hp/760 (spinning through the torque peak) with 700ft/lbs at 4000 rpm. Sure, we can pull up a lot of turbo dynos where they make more, but for me, being a street car, it's just about enough.
We've also covered the whole belt slip and crazy crank pressure topic. The aster bracket as well as other spring loaded tensioner setups have almost completely eliminated belt slip, and since it's a factory tensioner, the amount of extra tension on the crank snout isn't what I would call crazy either.
Last edited by Game ova; 07-20-2016 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Didn't exactly answer the question
07-20-2016, 09:17 PM
#237
For me, I'm a street car, enjoy a/c, power steering, sway bars, but also like power.
So I was able to install a blower, retain everything just like factory, and make nearly 900 at the wheel, oh and have a civilized exhaust setup that still comes out the back of the car.
That was a tall task for a turbo. Trust me, I talked to a lot of people about it. I was told I'd have to move the radiator, or lose the a/c, or lose the sway bar, forget about having the exhaust exit out the rear, I'd need to have at least a cutout.
Also, lets not forget how critical all the pieces of a turbo puzzle need to be to play nicely together. A/r, cam specs, exhaust diameter and routing all play a role in having a setup work properly.
Just like it was said above, turbo setups require a lot of planning, fabrication, and even trial and error. So I'm not a fabricator, I can live with that. Maybe some day later in life I'll buy a welder, and spend some time learning to weld and I can fab my own setup.
Till then, I'll enjoy my no compromise 900rwhp setup street car.
So I was able to install a blower, retain everything just like factory, and make nearly 900 at the wheel, oh and have a civilized exhaust setup that still comes out the back of the car.
That was a tall task for a turbo. Trust me, I talked to a lot of people about it. I was told I'd have to move the radiator, or lose the a/c, or lose the sway bar, forget about having the exhaust exit out the rear, I'd need to have at least a cutout.
Also, lets not forget how critical all the pieces of a turbo puzzle need to be to play nicely together. A/r, cam specs, exhaust diameter and routing all play a role in having a setup work properly.
Just like it was said above, turbo setups require a lot of planning, fabrication, and even trial and error. So I'm not a fabricator, I can live with that. Maybe some day later in life I'll buy a welder, and spend some time learning to weld and I can fab my own setup.
Till then, I'll enjoy my no compromise 900rwhp setup street car.
07-20-2016, 09:26 PM
#238
I have never owned a blown car but I have ridden in one and I own a turbo one now, makes 900 at the wheels. I can tell you the kick in the *** from a turbo when hitting full boost is something I have never experienced before and still have a hard time getting used to, it literally feels like you get rear ended by a train going 80 mph.
07-20-2016, 09:40 PM
#239
i built this in about 2 weeks while i was recovering from cancer treatment
cold ac, cruise, power steering and brakes, full interior
its not 900whp yet, i need to put my 4l80e and np149 in before i can turn up the wick, but a reliable turbo setup isnt that hard to accomplish.
a big procharger motor sounds way cooler though.
cold ac, cruise, power steering and brakes, full interior
its not 900whp yet, i need to put my 4l80e and np149 in before i can turn up the wick, but a reliable turbo setup isnt that hard to accomplish.
a big procharger motor sounds way cooler though.