aaronware76

iTrader: (2)

Hi guys, been trying to work the bugs out of my set up and the problems have just gotten worse. The problems aren't due to the Huron kit, that fit well and performed great. On 6-7 psi the car made 541/518 to the tires with meth on 93 octane. Only issue on the dyno was the car was seeing more rpm than the dyno was reporting. Slipping clutch? Not sure.
On the street, the car would pop at the top of first and second gear, which turned out to be boost cut from my innovate gage. I think the meth is leaking and it's going lean. Also, the car would cruise nicely till it got to full operating temp, once fully hot, the afr would go rich down to 11-12:1 and start to buck badly when just trying to maintain speed. When at wot, the first few times of driving the car, the boost was peaking at 6-7psi, right where it had been tuned to. Then every time I'd go wot, the boost was starting to creep up, 7,8,9 etc. I attributed that to the weather getting colder.
On the way to work one night I ripped through 2nd and into 3rd gear and the boost hit 11.4 psi. It popped at the top of 2nd but was ok otherwise. The car ran fine the rest of the way to work. Following morning, it ran fine idling for the first minute then got rough. When I got onto the road, the car went super lean, about 20:1 afr and would barely accelerate. I limped it home the whole time the car was 19-22:1 afr except for a few split second spurts of power and the afr would drop back to the 13:1 range at that time. Figuring I had a huge vacuum leak somewhere, I checked the map sensor on the back of the intake because I knew if it's questionable install. Sure enough, I fiddled with the map sensor and the idle started jumping around and afr corrected itself. My buddy that did the install took care of the map sensor issue but the car was still running the same. I changed plugs and wires, fired it up and ran good for the first minute. Then the afr went lean to about 19:1 and it started missing and running rough. Took the car down my street, easy on the gas, and it would go lean about 20:1 with any pressure on the gas pedal and would fatten up to about 13:1 as soon as I'd let off. Good oil pressure, not running too hot, no noise, oil looked good. Plugs were fine, just oil soaked on the dr side. Did a compression test. 5 of 8 cylinders were in the 165-175 psi range, the other 3 were down around 140 psi. Plugged in hp tuners and it showed my O2's were reading opposite of each other. One side trying to add fuel and the other trying to lean it out. Plus I had a heavy raw gas smell. We disabled the o2's and the car ran better but was still running with a miss, like down a cylinder and had blue smoke coming out the exhaust. With a little bit of noise from the motor now as well. So... with all that said, what are your thoughts? Electrical issue, tune issue or mechanical? I'm about to rip off the heads assuming I blew the gaskets out and to try and see if there is any damage to any pistons but before I do, it'd be nice to see what everyone's thoughts are as to possible issues.

NBM-LS1

iTrader: (7)

Space put some paragraphs man. Its difficult to read this way.

aaronware76

iTrader: (2)

First time emptying my catch can since turbo install. I'm assuming it's just condensation mixed with the oil but one could think head gasket issue. Oil on dipstick looks normal though.
Tried to break up my long description some plus I wanted to add that I emptied my catch can and it looked like chocolate milk as opposed to just oil.

SethU

Holey crap! That post is about as organized as my garage, where it all makes sense to me but no one else has a clue where to start making sense of any of it. Let's take the word weedwacker to this post, clean it up a bit, and see if there's any sensible questions in the verbal hay stack.


THE PROBLEM

• easy on the gas/cruising, it goes lean. About 20:1 and fattens up to about 13:1 as soon as I let off.
• The car cruises nicely until it reaches full operating temp, then the afr goes rich, down to 11-12:1 and the car starts to buck badly just trying to maintain speed.
  Gotta get your thoughts and communication straight. Is it lean or rich when cruising?
  
• Initially, boost was stable at 6-7. However, now it creeps as high as 11.4
• The car pops at the top of first and second gear
• blue smoke coming out the exhaust.

WHAT I HAVE

• Huron kit, Stock computer, HPTuners, Dual widebands/one per bank, boost cut in the Inovate WB's
• Good oil pressure, not running too hot, oil looked good.
• Plugs were oil soaked on the dr side.
• Compression test, 5 of 8 cylinders were in the 165-175 psi range, the other 3 were down around 140 psi.
• a little bit of noise from the motor
• heavy raw gas smell

WHAT I'VE TRIED

• I fiddled with the map sensor and the idle started jumping around and afr corrected itself.
• hp tuners shows my O2's are reading opposite of each other. One side trying to add fuel and the other trying to lean it out.
• disabled the o2's and the car ran better but was still running with a miss

WHAT I THINK

• It pops at the top of first and second gear. which turned out to be boost cut from my innovate gage.
  So, this part is solved? Doesn't pop anymore?

So, the boost creeps, AFR is unstable, and there's oil on some of the spark plugs. Does that pretty much sum it up?

SethU

So, here's what I think may be going on.

Bad valve seals, plugs are oil fouled and not firing on drivers side. I'd wager it's that side that reads lean.

May even have some very poor condition valves that are severely pitted, causing your variance in compression.

Wouldn't surprise me if it had been repeatedly over heated in it's previous life.

Anyway, just my guess based on what I'm able to make of the discription of the problems.

Also guessing that it'll run better if you disable the drivers side O2 and just use the Pass side. Won't solve the "real" issues, but should run better.

aaronware76

iTrader: (2)

Sorry for the confusion. I'm a details kind of guy and wanted to put as many details as I could in the post so people know the whole story.
That post was basically a timeline of events as they've happened since the car was tuned. Things changed along the way and I wanted to show that. As for the issues, the car does not run well enough to see how it cruises now, as far as afr goes.
As for possible bad valve seals... I'm not sure on that one because the heads are PRC 5.3 heads that only have about 10-12k miles on them. Although I am running the torquer v3 cam and the high lift puts a lot of stress on everything as well as improper rocker geometry, possibly wearing down the valve guide seals prematurely. Those cylinders that are low on compression, I was thinking worn piston rings causing low readings for psi and the oil issue. Not sure.
I'm gonna pull the heads off to check everything out and to get rid of the stock style graphite and metal head gaskets. Also because it's possible that I blew one or both out causing the lean condition due to sucking in unmetered air.
This is where I'm headed so far but would love more opinions and input cause, I don't wanna pull the heads if I don't have to but everything is leaning towards that.

a05c

Before you start pulling it apart, I'd do compression and leak down checks first.

And I'd definately look for vacuum and exhaust leaks.

lmt0705

iTrader: (7)

It should be noted that the 3 cylinders with the lowest compression are 3,5, and 7. He only has one wideband sensor in the driver's side. When the o2 sensors are disabled the car will stabilize and stay running but the wideband is still reading 16-17/1. It's definitely down at least one cylinder based on how slow the motor is revving however

SethU

My opinion... wherever the oil is coming from, it's likely your main contributing factor from what I've read here. Solve that and most if not all problems should clear up.

It's showing lean because of the misfires.

Have you tried cleaning the plugs and run again? Run any different for any period of time?

lmt0705

iTrader: (7)

He put brand new plugs in and it made no difference, he's got oil running down the driver's side over the filter. We did heads and cam on this thing like 8 years ago and from what he's saying he had cheese dick felpro composite gaskets. They probably are blown apart from forced induction. Why would it show lean from the misfires?

SethU

Pull the heads and take a look. Blown head gasket would explain the compression difference and could explain the misfires. However, it's doubtful that's where the oil on the plugs or down the side of the engine is from.

If the fuel isn't burned or is only partially burned, the oxygen in the air that would otherwise be consumed during combustion and converted into H2O and CO2 is read by the O2 sensor and it will indicate lean. There's more O2 in the exhaust stream when cylinders aren't firing.

Even if it starts to burn in the exhaust manifold, it burns much too slow when it's not compressed to completely use the oxygen by the time it passes the sensor.

So, seeing lean, the computer tries to compensate and starts putting more fuel in all the cylinders to try to bring the AFR back where it thinks it should be. Now the engine is actually rich in all the holes that are firing, yet the O2 is still reading lean. Which is why it ran slightly better with the O2's disabled. I'm pretty sure this is why there's a maximum correction allowance based on O2 readings. Otherwise, the computer would continue adding more and more fuel, hopelessly trying to make things right.

aaronware76

iTrader: (2)

So, based on your theory, which sounds feasible, what is the mechanical issue then? The oil from either valves guide seals or piston rings is blowing out the spark and the cylinders are flooding with fuel? This issue happened suddenly after the over boosting and lean condition from the night before and has rendered the car pretty much undriveable. The other issues were there previous to this but the car was still driveable.

SethU

The oil is either coming up past the rings or past the seals and down the valve guide... I suppose it's theoretically "possible" for oil to enter through the head gasket if it failed out the top and pulls oil from the lifter area. However I've never personally seen, heard, or read of that happening. Head gaskets typically fail between the cylinders. Nowhere else it could come from, other than past the spark plug which is also wildly improbable yet theoretically possible if there's really that bad of a leak on that side and if the plugs weren't torqued.

My money is still on the valve seals/guides, however it could just as well be past the rings or even lifted ring lands. Pretty sure the heads are going to have to come off to assess either case.

Start with the intake manifold and look into the intake ports for signs oil. Feel around in them for oil.

lmt0705

iTrader: (7)

I'm worried about a broken ring land that's not visible from the top of the piston

SethU

Save that thought for when you've checked the usual suspects, nothing looks out of place, and you're scratching your head.

3 window

iTrader: (1)

Easier to jerk the engine out and check everything if you're gonna lose sleep over it. Makes no sense to wonder if a ring is cracked. Get the piston(s) out and check em.

lmt0705

iTrader: (7)

At that point he needs to just do a forged short block and crank it up. Don't think it's in his budget though

aaronware76

iTrader: (2)

No, there really is no budget at this point. After all the upgrades the car got just a few months ago, this motor just needs to get repaired if something is wrong and put back together. Need to just get some miles ptnin her this year and need a year or better to pay things down.

SethU

No need to go forged. Not at 7... 10.... 15 psi

This guy's your buddy? Man, he's a worry wart, worst case scenario kinda guy isn't he...

Just tear the top end off and see what ya see. It could be something we mentioned here or something else. You'll find out when you find out. But ya gotta look for it first. Wont find out until then.

aaronware76

iTrader: (2)

Yeah he's a good friend of mine. He's been pushing me for a forged motor since long before the turbo kit went on. Obviously your safer if you have a motor that can handle anything you throw at it and you can possibly sell the stock motor to recoup some of the investment but... His glass is half empty when it comes to this stuff on my car. Me, I like to think the ole girl is gonna hold up and I'd rather push it and see. Plus I don't have $5-7k for a forged motor.
I figure the motor should be able to handle 600rwhp and I'm not there yet. At 6-7psi I was at 541/518. I'm spraying water/meth with 93 octane, timing is around 16* and afr is tuned for about 11.6:1. I'm gonna keep the rpm's under 6200 and hope for the best. I'd like to see what 10psi gets me after I figure this issue out.
I'll have the intake and heads off in a few days and I'll be able to see what's up hopefully. Hopefully something simple like we talked about.