417 Motorsports 1500hp Hi-Ram Intercooler: The Data - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion



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417 Motorsports 1500hp Hi-Ram Intercooler: The Data

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Old 03-10-2017, 08:03 PM   #1
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Default 417 Motorsports 1500hp Hi-Ram Intercooler: The Data

UPDATE!!! Page 22, post #440: temps well under control since swap to Shearer Fabrications Hi-Ram intercooler!!!

UPDATES with pre-cooler data: Page 12, post #224.


Just want to share with you guys some of the data I have collected since October after finishing the new build in the V. A little background on the car as many of you may have never seen it. I have searched high and low for hard data on this intercooler and have seen where others have tried to find it as well with no luck. Figured I'd share what I have found.

Combo currently consists of:
LC9 (Aluminum 5.3), 9:1 Compression with Weisco Pistons and Compstar rods.
Stock casting 317 Heads with typical valvetrain upgrades.
LJMS Stg 3 turbo cam
Billet Borg S484, .96/1.10
Holley Hi-Ram
417 Motorsports 1500hp intercooler with 417 Water Manifolds and -16 feed/return lines.
EMP pump with a confirmed 20gallons/minute flow at the return
5 Gallon ice box



First time out with the car it ran pretty well on a very conservative 14-15psi boost and very very low timing. I was a little concerned that it was only back halfing 23ish mph, but I had no idea what to expect from the new combo in a manual trans, 4000lb car. Mid 10s at 136-137 wasnt bad for a first day out though.

After reviewing the datalogs when I got home I was shocked to find that MATs were shooting so high, so fast that the car was pulling tons of timing at the 1/8th mile (pulling timing starting at 150*), despite having 20lbs of ice circulating through the system and outside ambient temp around 55*. I found it a little odd so I made some calls and was advised that you cannot run the MAT sesnor in the back of the hi-ram with this intercooler due to that being a low flow area and only reading heatsoak and not cooled air temps. Done.



Immediately after putting everything back together I had to test. Found virtually no change in MAT readings... This is odd. It was explained to me that my Rule 2000 pump and 3/4" feed and return lines along with the fitting combo wasn't allowing for enough water flow. So I revamped the entire setup. Insert 417 Water manifolds, and -16 feed and return lines along with an EMP pump. Sweet, we now have verified nearly 20gallons per minute through the system at the return. Surely this will get things cooled down...











Next track day was 50-55* ambient, slightly negative DA. Once again, running 20lbs of ice per pass cycling the water just before the burnout... 170* + rise in MAT on some passes around 25-26psi boost, going through the traps at north of 200+* but decided not to pull timing untill 200 because there is no way these MAT temps are correct as I'm told. It has to be a sensor issue.



After more discussions I am told that these temps just simply can't be possible with the flow I have, ice, and the intercooler with this turbo and power level. It HAS to be my sensor that's bad because it's the ONLY thing that hasn't been changed and once again I'm assured that's definitely the problem. I removed the GM MAT sensor that is often used for these combos and purchased the Holley MAT sensor. Should be good now. I immediately went out on 25psi boost and without even datalogging realized my original sensor was reading perfectly fine all along. The second the car goes in to boost, the MAT shoots up. Ambient temp on this pull was 30*, 20lbs of ice in the tank. 66* rise during the 1500rpm worth of boost only up to 5700rpm or so.





Lets turn the boost back down to gate pressure and turn the water pump off all together and make pulls, back to back, and compare the temps/rise versus running the system full of ice and with the pump running. The MAT rise is virtually identical, on identical pulls. This is 3rd gear only running up to 5500rpm. Again, Roughly 1500rpm of the turbo being online (16psi peak boost) and the MAT has risen roughly 30* whether the ice was flowing or not. The only difference in the curves is the MAT started lower with the ice flowing, as the intercooler IS capable of dropping temps at idle.

Dotted line is with the pump OFF. Solid line is with the pump ON, and again, circulating ice. I directly overlaid back to back nearly identical 3rd gear pulls for comparison.




I began to convince myself that the pump itself must be shutting down somehow as soon as the car goes WOT. IT had also been suggested that G-forces must be stopping the water flow dead in its tracks as soon as the car accelerates... SO I went home, came up with a ridiculous rig to film the return flow INSIDE the reservoir during a WOT pull. Pull starts around 15 seconds in the video and is a solid all of 2nd, all of 3rd, and a bit of 4th gear before I slow down. Not so much as a hesitation in flow...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ99...ature=youtu.be

At this point I have exhausted all avenues that I know of to get the temps under control and this is the hard data that many people have asked for.

Last edited by gtistile; 06-16-2017 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 03-10-2017, 08:14 PM   #2
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the timing of this thread is uncanny. thanks!

https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...-question.html
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Old 03-10-2017, 08:53 PM   #3
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There's a guy on performance trucks three6gmc who had a very similar issue. Ended up ditching the 412 setup because it wouldn't work.
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Old 03-10-2017, 08:58 PM   #4
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I've never seen anyone run this setup and have low IATs. It just seems like a bad design overall to me. Every thread they say you need a better pump or bigger lines. It kind of sucks when the consumer is the beta tester.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:29 PM   #5
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same issues with whackshack nova

changed 30 things and higher than non intercooled temps
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:20 AM   #6
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It's time for the MethLife.
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Old 03-11-2017, 03:11 AM   #7
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It's got to be the intercooler! What are the dimensions of the brick? It looks very thin in comparison to say a Garrett 1000bhp air to water core (4.5 inch thick)!
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:37 AM   #8
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It sound like it's ether sensor placement, like maybe that brick is only cooling the outer vains or the sensor at a hot spot, I personally believe you could throw a cheap air to air and it would do better then that thing, there has to be a flaw in the cooler design
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ls13ater View Post
It sound like it's ether sensor placement, like maybe that brick is only cooling the outer vains or the sensor at a hot spot, I personally believe you could throw a cheap air to air and it would do better then that thing, there has to be a flaw in the cooler design
the sensor has been installed in 2 seperate locations. First in the rear of the manifold, in the outer edge as you're describing, and now in the bottom between cyls 5 and 7. Temps are unaffected. I see no reason how 2 locations could be hot spots if the whole thing isn't just, hot.

Unfortunately running a different intercooler means starting from scratch on the hotside and figuring out a new location for the turbo. The entire combo as you see it was built AROUND the hi ram intercooler from day 1 knowing I have a very small engine bay
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:21 AM   #10
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Couple of things....

Firstly, cool video.

Secondly, measure water temps going into and out of the cooler. If it isnt extracting any heat as it seems...then the water wont be getting very warm ?


Although I'll never understand how any of those tiny cores can actually work properly given their size.

Surely you could ditch the Hi Ram base, use a lower short runner base and that would leave a ton of room for more cooler and then the same HiRam top ?

or start firing in a load of meth either pre or post compressor.
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:34 AM   #11
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At the start of a pass there is 20lbs of ice in the tank. As soon as I get back to the pits, nearly all the ice is gone, water is chilly...

I've dropped a ton of coin and spent so many hours meticulously collecting data after singular changes that I just can't in good concience justify spending any more time and money collecting data on it.

As far as I can tell, no one has gone to this extent with this cooler as there is literally no other data out there on it. Hopefully it provides some insight even though there are possibly some other minute measurements that haven't been quantified
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:44 AM   #12
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I think it was mentioned in the other thread ? But did you ever get around to adding thermocouples ? Not a cheap test, but would have been pretty informative.

ie before/after the cooler unit, and water into and out of the unit.

That would have confirmed without question if it is really doing anything worthwhile.

From that units lack of cooling ability...doubtful even stacking a pair of them would make any difference ?
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:06 AM   #13
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I didn't Stevie. Ultimately my intention is to make my combo work as a whole so it was in my best interest to give this cooler a college effort since I was already invested in it. The sensor location idea and upping the water flow theories made perfect sense so it was worth upgrading/changing to me. Having seen virtually no change in temp rise whether ice is flowing through the system, or the pump is off entirely and brick heat soaked that right there told me what I needed to know.... I've done as much testing as I'm willing to do to be frank. I simply don't have the means to continue doing field testing on this specific part just for the sake of having more data. I just want a fast street car
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:08 AM   #14
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Can you fit a regular A/W intercooler somewhere?
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcgenII View Post
Can you fit a regular A/W intercooler somewhere?
the turbo as you see it is in the only postion it can fit unfortunately, up and in to the intake. I really did put my eggs in one basket and built the combo to utilize this intercooler. Anything other than non-intercooled will require re-building the hotside and relocating the turbo. It is where it is because that's about the only spot there is room for it
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:53 AM   #16
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I did a Air to Air in one of the CTSVs and it cooled way better than your setup.






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Old 03-11-2017, 09:59 AM   #17
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Yea Zachs combo is very cool. I wanted to retain my crash bar and several other things, so I went this route. Completely off topic, but have you spoken to him in a while? He fell off the map...
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:48 AM   #18
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Unfortunately for me I stumbled upon your previous thread when you first had the problem when I was already half way in the build process and had all my parts allready,

Im sorry to hear about your troubles all I can do is add additional data to this thread once I get it at tx2k this weekend.

My setup is complete and ill be test and tuning.

lsx
twin turbo
417 motorsports intercooler

If the intercooler is the problem I should be getting worst temps and timing since the temp wont be as cold here in Tx.

ive placed my iat sensor between 4-6 , it has the plastic collar vs all brass.
I have -20 fitting size and 1 -1/4 size hose for water with a Rule 3700 pump

Ill post back when I get some data and hopefully help

Besides just starting over on the cooler , one thing I will try is adding meth to the setup and see what that will do.




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Old 03-11-2017, 10:51 AM   #19
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Looking foward to seeing what your temps look like! Good luck and please reply back!!!
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:52 AM   #20
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I was just thinking about this build the other day and wondering if it got sorted.

It is a confusing deal. If it wasn't melting all the ice, it would be an easy determination at this point. But it is, which indicates the system is moving quite a bit of heat.

After the last conversation I started noticing others mentioning the same issues. Denmah was one of them.

Did you verify that the sensor calibration is correct in the software?
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