Lq9 twin turbo build for 77 TA
04-26-2018, 07:44 PM
#21
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All gen 4 5.3s will have the same heads, no issues there. Block casting won't matter much either.
1. Yes, you can use any of the stock intakes, from the trucks or cars, as long as its cathedral port.
2. You'll want to keep duration at .050" in the 220s/230s. Most mild LS cams have .600" lift or so.
3. Stock.
4. Stock work 99% of the time. You can upgrade if you want piece of mind. Depending on camshaft, you might need to get shorter/longer.
5. Stock.
6. Stock.
7. Forged rods will have ARP bolts. Head studs are a great idea for an aluminum block.
8. Depends a lot on the situation. Most of the factory rails have been in the 800-1000 range but it depends on regulator setup and fuel pressure.
9. I have a billet 80mm on my aluminum 5.3. On my low boost street tune, I made over 700 ft-lbs at the wheels below 4000 RPM on a dyno called "The Heartbreaker" because of its notoriously low numbers. My cam/converter/turbo combo is amazing. Spool will depend more on the turbine side of the turbo than the compressor side.
1. Yes, you can use any of the stock intakes, from the trucks or cars, as long as its cathedral port.
2. You'll want to keep duration at .050" in the 220s/230s. Most mild LS cams have .600" lift or so.
3. Stock.
4. Stock work 99% of the time. You can upgrade if you want piece of mind. Depending on camshaft, you might need to get shorter/longer.
5. Stock.
6. Stock.
7. Forged rods will have ARP bolts. Head studs are a great idea for an aluminum block.
8. Depends a lot on the situation. Most of the factory rails have been in the 800-1000 range but it depends on regulator setup and fuel pressure.
9. I have a billet 80mm on my aluminum 5.3. On my low boost street tune, I made over 700 ft-lbs at the wheels below 4000 RPM on a dyno called "The Heartbreaker" because of its notoriously low numbers. My cam/converter/turbo combo is amazing. Spool will depend more on the turbine side of the turbo than the compressor side.
What am I missing here? This seems too good to be true? Can this really be done for $8k? I thought for sure when I posted this thread I was gonna get a ton of people saying "this can't be done for under $40k.". Google searches will find threads from 10 yrs ago that were posted on this very forum that say things like that. I hope I'm not being set up to be let down! Haha
I called a local junk yard today and they wanted about $1300 for a 38k mile bottom end, separate heads, intake, fuel rails, and some other odds and ends. Another complete motor with 34k miles that would probably make a great candidate for a guy actually replacing a defective engine on his actual 5.3L truck was $2500. It probably had the wiring harness. A lot of the preliminary research I did and videos I watched showed guys getting the engines for $150. The closest I've gotten to that was a $600 Craigslist find.
I'm looking to get a complete engine since it sounds like I need so much of the stock stuff. Do I need the wire harness though? That's getting into the control side of things. I'll be using aftermarket dual electric fans on a nice be cool radiator or the like, and basically all the other accessories are aftermarket or just plain probably won't make up to 2012 wiring harness anyway.
Back to my point though; $1000 engine, say $1000 on forged internals, $1000 turbo- and this doesn't address if I go twin for low RPM and high-, manifokds can be as much as $3k for these things right? What's a good intercooler? $3k? That's $9k right there.
I wouldn't be against fabbing my own turbo tubing and even headers. I'm set up to do it. If that'd save me $3-$4k that's hard to ignore even though I would rather just buy it and have someone else do it.
Another question on the block, what about machine work? Assuming the crank looks good and it doesn't need turned down at all, do I need to zero deck, bore out the cylinders with a torque plate, do any custom oil galley drilling, etc? Or is just looking at the cylinder walls and "eye-balling it" with a home until I have a good looking cross hatching suffice? I do have access to Ra and Rz surface finish checkers I could borrow.
04-26-2018, 07:58 PM
#23
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. Thanks guys!
04-26-2018, 08:07 PM
#24
Launching!
When I broke a ring land on my stock 6.0 I did the upgrade to forged rods and pistons with a stock crank. Bought Texas speed h beam rods, wiseco pistons that came with rings and all for 1250..... did all the work my self putting it together and just had to have the rotating assembly balanced.... all together I believe I had just shy of 1500 to put it back together with gaskets and fluids....
04-26-2018, 08:09 PM
#25
Game ova, I meant while using a stock crank, so the $1000 for the forged rotating assembly is really only forged rods and new pistons. Pistons go from $500-$600 and forged 4340 H-beam rods are $450-$550- at least in the Pontiac world I'm used to. I thought LS stuff was cheaper too. If I am way off base, please educate me. That's why I'm here. I don't wanna start somthing thinking it's gonna cost me $8k and $5k in find out I'm gonna have to spend $40k . Thanks guys!
. Thanks guys!
04-26-2018, 08:13 PM
#26
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When I broke a ring land on my stock 6.0 I did the upgrade to forged rods and pistons with a stock crank. Bought Texas speed h beam rods, wiseco pistons that came with rings and all for 1250..... did all the work my self putting it together and just had to have the rotating assembly balanced.... all together I believe I had just shy of 1500 to put it back together with gaskets and fluids....
Good to know. Starting to write all this stuff out it sure seems like I'll be going over $8k .I'm thinking fuel system and intercooler. Not so sure I'd consider fuel system as EXTRA money though because I was planning on going with a very expensive Rick's stainless tank. I was thinking of going this way because it came with all the in tank pumps and all everything was figured out. The in tank pumps have their own locking and sealing mechanism on the top, so instead of figuring that all out I was just gonna buy. Going external pumps may make this easier and allow me to fan my own stainless tank, as JoeNova mentioned. That's be another way to cut cost.
Does anyone have more input or advice on single vs dual? I have been going into this thinking I needed a dual setup with a smaller and a larger turbo to cover my desired power range of 1500-5500/6000 RPM range. JoeNova has me starting to thinking about investigating a single big turbo, but again, I really don't wanna deal with lag and would love to see the benefits of boost across the spectrum.
I appreciate everyone's input and experiences being mentioned.
04-26-2018, 09:13 PM
#27
no differece single vs twin....its just packaging. both wilk make big power.
my nova set up is as follows
6.0, compstar rods ,weisco pistons, stock crank, stock ls3 heads, aftermarket china intake , 8olb injectors, ljms cam & a $600 borg warner a475.
the car is also a 6 speed car. on low boost (12psi its in the neighborhood of 700rwhp , i expect it will do 850 turned up.
it drives like a stock 6.0 till you mash the throttle , the. its lime a warp speed banshee. if you have never beem in a turbo car with big power its tough to discribe the torque they make......alot.
that being said im now doing a second build on my 56 chevy.....much simpler. i expect it will make 750 rwhp.
its got a 146k mile gen4 5.3, cheap jegs sloppy cam, spings, gaskets and a cheap on3 7875 turbo.
i guess what im getting at is yoh dont have to go nuts to make 700-800 rwhp with these engines....they love boost
my nova set up is as follows
6.0, compstar rods ,weisco pistons, stock crank, stock ls3 heads, aftermarket china intake , 8olb injectors, ljms cam & a $600 borg warner a475.
the car is also a 6 speed car. on low boost (12psi its in the neighborhood of 700rwhp , i expect it will do 850 turned up.
it drives like a stock 6.0 till you mash the throttle , the. its lime a warp speed banshee. if you have never beem in a turbo car with big power its tough to discribe the torque they make......alot.
that being said im now doing a second build on my 56 chevy.....much simpler. i expect it will make 750 rwhp.
its got a 146k mile gen4 5.3, cheap jegs sloppy cam, spings, gaskets and a cheap on3 7875 turbo.
i guess what im getting at is yoh dont have to go nuts to make 700-800 rwhp with these engines....they love boost
04-26-2018, 09:20 PM
#28
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no differece single vs twin....its just packaging. both wilk make big power.
my nova set up is as follows
6.0, compstar rods ,weisco pistons, stock crank, stock ls3 heads, aftermarket china intake , 8olb injectors, ljms cam & a $600 borg warner a475.
the car is also a 6 speed car. on low boost (12psi its in the neighborhood of 700rwhp , i expect it will do 850 turned up.
it drives like a stock 6.0 till you mash the throttle , the. its lime a warp speed banshee. if you have never beem in a turbo car with big power its tough to discribe the torque they make......alot.
that being said im now doing a second build on my 56 chevy.....much simpler. i expect it will make 750 rwhp.
its got a 146k mile gen4 5.3, cheap jegs sloppy cam, spings, gaskets and a cheap on3 7875 turbo.
i guess what im getting at is yoh dont have to go nuts to make 700-800 rwhp with these engines....they love boost
my nova set up is as follows
6.0, compstar rods ,weisco pistons, stock crank, stock ls3 heads, aftermarket china intake , 8olb injectors, ljms cam & a $600 borg warner a475.
the car is also a 6 speed car. on low boost (12psi its in the neighborhood of 700rwhp , i expect it will do 850 turned up.
it drives like a stock 6.0 till you mash the throttle , the. its lime a warp speed banshee. if you have never beem in a turbo car with big power its tough to discribe the torque they make......alot.
that being said im now doing a second build on my 56 chevy.....much simpler. i expect it will make 750 rwhp.
its got a 146k mile gen4 5.3, cheap jegs sloppy cam, spings, gaskets and a cheap on3 7875 turbo.
i guess what im getting at is yoh dont have to go nuts to make 700-800 rwhp with these engines....they love boost
I'll wanna make a minimum of 800 at the wheels in torque and power. I've already got a good, strong engine, so if I'm gonna do this it's gonna be the "go big or go home" approach. Lol. The car is NOT coming apart after this. Haha I know, we've all said that before, but it's really not gonna .This is going through a full resto right now, so this is the last chance .
04-28-2018, 08:24 AM
#29
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Anyone on that last post and the questions I asked?
Here are the questions that have arisen based on my reasearch since my last post:
1.) If I'm going to do forged rods (and maybe even a forged crank the more I think about it) then I shouldn't care at all about which year 2000+ of aluminum 5.3 I get. JoeNova says basically the only differences are in pistons and rods, and if I'm replacing those anyways then any 2000+ aluminun block should be good??
2.) Control systems- what do I get that works well and is cheap? Can this all be managed with a factory computer and wiring harness? Do I need megasquirt or something? It looked like a setup from them was $3k+ with wiring harness and computer. Are there cheaper options? Is there a mid-range/ value option? Do any of the cost-effective solutions skip on onboard screen set up and require setup with laptop that is removed from the car after things are running well? That's what I'd want. I won't be constantly screwing with this after I get it where I like it.
3.) If I do decide on aftermarket heads what do I get? Trick flow gen x? Others?
4.) Are Bosch injectors the best? Is there a value option that has good performance but is cost-effective?
5.) Is there a known source of "value" headers already designed for a 2nd gen fbody? I won't necessarily want to skimp here, but I don't want to spend $3k+ with stainless works either. If there is a company churning these things out for 2nd gens, I'd love to take a look. That'd save me a lot of fab time and design.
6.) Cost-effective intercooler?
7.) I know nothing about wastegates and blow off valves. I'm assuming there are mechanical and electronic versions of each. Which is best? I surely need to have this planned our to match my wiring harness.
8.) Recommended cam grinds? JoeNova kindly gave a general area where I might want to be, but are there any tried and true exact grinds you guys would care to share?
9.) I know there are"f-body" kits and oil pans out there for throwing these last engines in these birds and Camaros, but I thought most of them are for 4th gens. Anyone making these kits or at least just the pan to fit nicely in a stock 2nd gen subframe? Perhaps I'll have to refer to some of my pro-touring forums for this answer .
Here are the questions that have arisen based on my reasearch since my last post:
1.) If I'm going to do forged rods (and maybe even a forged crank the more I think about it) then I shouldn't care at all about which year 2000+ of aluminum 5.3 I get. JoeNova says basically the only differences are in pistons and rods, and if I'm replacing those anyways then any 2000+ aluminun block should be good??
2.) Control systems- what do I get that works well and is cheap? Can this all be managed with a factory computer and wiring harness? Do I need megasquirt or something? It looked like a setup from them was $3k+ with wiring harness and computer. Are there cheaper options? Is there a mid-range/ value option? Do any of the cost-effective solutions skip on onboard screen set up and require setup with laptop that is removed from the car after things are running well? That's what I'd want. I won't be constantly screwing with this after I get it where I like it.
3.) If I do decide on aftermarket heads what do I get? Trick flow gen x? Others?
4.) Are Bosch injectors the best? Is there a value option that has good performance but is cost-effective?
5.) Is there a known source of "value" headers already designed for a 2nd gen fbody? I won't necessarily want to skimp here, but I don't want to spend $3k+ with stainless works either. If there is a company churning these things out for 2nd gens, I'd love to take a look. That'd save me a lot of fab time and design.
6.) Cost-effective intercooler?
7.) I know nothing about wastegates and blow off valves. I'm assuming there are mechanical and electronic versions of each. Which is best? I surely need to have this planned our to match my wiring harness.
8.) Recommended cam grinds? JoeNova kindly gave a general area where I might want to be, but are there any tried and true exact grinds you guys would care to share?
9.) I know there are"f-body" kits and oil pans out there for throwing these last engines in these birds and Camaros, but I thought most of them are for 4th gens. Anyone making these kits or at least just the pan to fit nicely in a stock 2nd gen subframe? Perhaps I'll have to refer to some of my pro-touring forums for this answer .
04-28-2018, 12:02 PM
#32
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Game ova, thanks for the input too.
I need to dig up real world builds where people actually dyno'ed their cars and shared the results on line so I can look at the setups, torque curves, and power curves.
Please see my 2 posts above guys and let me.know what you think about parts selection! Thanks!
04-28-2018, 12:38 PM
#33
A sequential setup would be beneficial for sure but for some reason you don't see it much.
Ive had a few setups with 6.0 and 4 speeds, an ST10, M23 and GF4A. They'd all make 5-8psi around 2500-3000 in 4th gear, but it just really wasn't that great seat of the pants, its not until 3500-4000 did they really feel fast. The most responsive was twin S251. I think twin Garrett 50 trims would be even better. The S251s were maxed out at 740whp.
For a single a TC72 on a 5.3 would probably be the most responsive and still be able to make 700+ rwhp, or the equivalent in some other brand.
Ive had a few setups with 6.0 and 4 speeds, an ST10, M23 and GF4A. They'd all make 5-8psi around 2500-3000 in 4th gear, but it just really wasn't that great seat of the pants, its not until 3500-4000 did they really feel fast. The most responsive was twin S251. I think twin Garrett 50 trims would be even better. The S251s were maxed out at 740whp.
For a single a TC72 on a 5.3 would probably be the most responsive and still be able to make 700+ rwhp, or the equivalent in some other brand.
How can I remedy this? Is this where twin turbo comes in? One small and one big? To come the RPM range?
Game ova, thanks for the input too.
I need to dig up real world builds where people actually dyno'ed their cars and shared the results on line so I can look at the setups, torque curves, and power curves.
Please see my 2 posts above guys and let me.know what you think about parts selection! Thanks!
Game ova, thanks for the input too.
I need to dig up real world builds where people actually dyno'ed their cars and shared the results on line so I can look at the setups, torque curves, and power curves.
Please see my 2 posts above guys and let me.know what you think about parts selection! Thanks!
04-28-2018, 12:40 PM
#34
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Thanks, hank peabody.
All good stuff. I'll reference the equipment you just mentioned on a potential parts list. Are all those numbers turbo part numbers? I see you mentioned the Garrett manufacturer name and part number. That's helpful. I appreciate any specifics you guys can give. I'm not familiar with all the turbo companies, vendors, etc as I'm just looking at getting into this game.
I have been reading that 14.7psi (atmosphere) is basically where your base engines power is doubled because that's the pressure it is running at NA. Does anyone follow this or consider this when building? I ask because i can use it as an important guideline if it's fairly accurate. I know my goal, and this could help me determine where I have to get the NA 5.3 to before turbo. Assuming this is a good rule of thumb, I probably have to get the 5.3 pumping out 600hp NA to get 800-1000hp & ftlbs to the road .
I hope I'm asking the right questions here on theory and parts selection. Keep the info coming guys! Thanks.
All good stuff. I'll reference the equipment you just mentioned on a potential parts list. Are all those numbers turbo part numbers? I see you mentioned the Garrett manufacturer name and part number. That's helpful. I appreciate any specifics you guys can give. I'm not familiar with all the turbo companies, vendors, etc as I'm just looking at getting into this game.
I have been reading that 14.7psi (atmosphere) is basically where your base engines power is doubled because that's the pressure it is running at NA. Does anyone follow this or consider this when building? I ask because i can use it as an important guideline if it's fairly accurate. I know my goal, and this could help me determine where I have to get the NA 5.3 to before turbo. Assuming this is a good rule of thumb, I probably have to get the 5.3 pumping out 600hp NA to get 800-1000hp & ftlbs to the road .
I hope I'm asking the right questions here on theory and parts selection. Keep the info coming guys! Thanks.
04-28-2018, 01:24 PM
#36
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Even on the low end? What do you guys think about parts and set up? I have 2 posts several posts ago that have a long list of items and questions if anyone has any advice or opinion.
04-28-2018, 02:06 PM
#37
Review this guy's videos on youtube, he is very popular on this forum for the budget power crowd. He made over 1,000 whp on a 6.0 pure budget stuff... he has lists on his WIKI of parts you can use that work
04-28-2018, 02:24 PM
#38
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Review this guy's videos on youtube, he is very popular on this forum for the budget power crowd. He made over 1,000 whp on a 6.0 pure budget stuff... he has lists on his WIKI of parts you can use that work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1v7b3ewAUg&t=15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1v7b3ewAUg&t=15s
04-28-2018, 02:46 PM
#39
Awesome car and setup!
I know I'm in the minority but I just wanted you to hear another opinion. I love LS engines .They are a great design and my current c5 is twin turbo .If you were starting from scratch I'd say go the LS route .However you've got 12k into a bult 462 cid engine. If I were you I'd turbo it with a bolt on efi setup .Even if you have to change the cam to a more turbo friendly profile you are WAY ahead of the game. I have some experience with Pontiac engines and they are no joke. Guess what Big Chief from street outlaws has been running for years .Place a quick call to Butler performance before committing to the LS platform .(If you haven't already)
Besides everyone has a 1000rwhp stock LS at this point .Wouldnt it be cool to be a bit different and save the added expense?
Now that I've said my peace, best or luck to you in whatever direction you go and post pics!
(Previous 1978 TA owner, 462, RA IV heads, solid roller, turbo 400 w/tb, Currie 9", N20, many years ago!)
I know I'm in the minority but I just wanted you to hear another opinion. I love LS engines .They are a great design and my current c5 is twin turbo .If you were starting from scratch I'd say go the LS route .However you've got 12k into a bult 462 cid engine. If I were you I'd turbo it with a bolt on efi setup .Even if you have to change the cam to a more turbo friendly profile you are WAY ahead of the game. I have some experience with Pontiac engines and they are no joke. Guess what Big Chief from street outlaws has been running for years .Place a quick call to Butler performance before committing to the LS platform .(If you haven't already)
Besides everyone has a 1000rwhp stock LS at this point .Wouldnt it be cool to be a bit different and save the added expense?
Now that I've said my peace, best or luck to you in whatever direction you go and post pics!
(Previous 1978 TA owner, 462, RA IV heads, solid roller, turbo 400 w/tb, Currie 9", N20, many years ago!)
04-28-2018, 02:54 PM
#40
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Awesome car and setup!
I know I'm in the minority but I just wanted you to hear another opinion. I love LS engines .They are a great design and my current c5 is twin turbo .If you were starting from scratch I'd say go the LS route .However you've got 12k into a bult 462 cid engine. If I were you I'd turbo it with a bolt on efi setup .Even if you have to change the cam to a more turbo friendly profile you are WAY ahead of the game. I have some experience with Pontiac engines and they are no joke. Guess what Big Chief from street outlaws has been running for years .Place a quick call to Butler performance before committing to the LS platform .(If you haven't already)
Besides everyone has a 1000rwhp stock LS at this point .Wouldnt it be cool to be a bit different and save the added expense?
Now that I've said my peace, best or luck to you in whatever direction you go and post pics!
(Previous 1978 TA owner, 462, RA IV heads, solid roller, turbo 400 w/tb, Currie 9", N20, many years ago!)
I know I'm in the minority but I just wanted you to hear another opinion. I love LS engines .They are a great design and my current c5 is twin turbo .If you were starting from scratch I'd say go the LS route .However you've got 12k into a bult 462 cid engine. If I were you I'd turbo it with a bolt on efi setup .Even if you have to change the cam to a more turbo friendly profile you are WAY ahead of the game. I have some experience with Pontiac engines and they are no joke. Guess what Big Chief from street outlaws has been running for years .Place a quick call to Butler performance before committing to the LS platform .(If you haven't already)
Besides everyone has a 1000rwhp stock LS at this point .Wouldnt it be cool to be a bit different and save the added expense?
Now that I've said my peace, best or luck to you in whatever direction you go and post pics!
(Previous 1978 TA owner, 462, RA IV heads, solid roller, turbo 400 w/tb, Currie 9", N20, many years ago!)
As far as turboing this I think I'd have to still throw about as much money at it as a 5.3. Current SCR is 10.74 with the aluminum KRE heads .That's too high for turbo, right?
Also, I mentioned in my OP that I'm kinda against turboing this engine because the big turbo elbow would have to come in on top and I can kiss my shaker good bye that way and may not even be able to get it all under the hood . That's really the show stopper for me.
Not against looking into it by any means! But those points are problems I see right off the bat. If I have to buy another $3400 set of heads, maybe I'll just do LS this time was the thought.