Schroeder3

I wanna do a TT build for my 77 TA. It's a street car with a 580-600hp 461 stroker in it. I like it but want more because why not. That's my reasoning. I've had the car apart for so long again on another "while you're at it" project that I decided to do this too.

Previous quick thread-scanning on here and other forums pointed to an LQ9 as a block a guy could use and spend $8-$10k getting TT'ed and have 1000ftlbs and HP at the rear wheels when all said and done AND it could be done easily without head lift. This price window included all forged crank and rods. If I remember right.

Is this feasible? Is the parts list outlined in this article good? I like the idea that of de-stroking the engine for life and longevity.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1408-1113-hp-destroked-ls-build-heavy-hitter/

I want to make big numbers, but this is a street car too. I'm not gonna TT the thing to send up with 700-800ftlbs & HP. It wouldn't be a big enough jump to justify the work. I obviously don't know anything about this stuff yet, and this is the "feeler" post to determine which direction I need to start going. If feasible, research, budgeting, and ppl planning will begin.

Game ova

Why not put a nice size single on the 461? It will make stupid power, and do so easier than the small LS. Wait, i just noticed...461 stroker, what exactly is that?

JoeNova

Pontiac stroker based on the 400.

Would seem logical to just boost the engine you have now, assuming that stroker assembly is forged. Less overall work.

Game ova

Oh Lord, pontiac is much like an Oldsmobile power plant, rare and really expensive, also hard to make real power with. Find an old guy that's really nostalgic and ditch that thing (sell it), and go with the LS. Not bagging on you at all btw, when you said 461, at first I was thinking BBC 30 over, which would have been killer.

Schroeder3

It was very expensive to get to this point. Probably $12k. Wish I would have gone the lq9 route right away. The plan was to not sell this existing engine, but to put it in my 70 bird at some point. It's a great, fun engine.

The engine has forged eagle rods and crank, Ross flat top pistons, Kauffman heart shaped chamber heads that flow 305CFM, a big cam obviously, a torker II intake, and probably some other stuff I missed.

While working with what I have is intriguing, there are challenges. First off, it's not fuel injected .I didn't really wanna get into a retro fit, throttle body, etc. Also, the intake is on the top of the engine. I'd like something front-facing ans low-profileto keep everything under the hood and maintain the shaker. This is nearly impossible to do with a turbo'ed NA engine. Putting a big turbo elbow on top of the intake and fitting it under a shaker doesn't work well .

The standard LS platform (LQ9) addresses these two problems with its stock configuration . That brings me back to the original question; is the parts list laid out in the article feasible, in the range of $8-$9k with intercoolers and everything (including base engine which look to be about $2-$2500 w/ 80-100k miles on eBay), and "streetable"? I won't focus on the "streetable" point too much because I know it's arbitrary and basically meaningless. I've seen articles and threads of guys doing exactly what I'm talking about but I can't seem to track them down. Guys use the lq9 for BIG, cheap power as an alternative to the lsx with the only downside being it's a 4 bolt head as opposed to 6. And, NO, the lsx is not an option .


I've been in similar threads where more information is requested, so I'll do my best to provide as the thought roll into my head. I need to maintain AC, which I don't see as a problem .It's probably just going to mean coming up with funky brackets and I want power from 1500, 2000-5500 RPM range.

Thanks for the replies and insight presented thus far.

JoeNova

Depending on how you want to rush through it, it can be done much cheaper than 8-10k. I have ~$4k in one of mine and $2500 in the other. Both sitting in the 800-1000 range. Both on factory long blocks, so add $1100-1600 for a forged piston/rod combo if you're installing them yourself. Add $2000 if you will be buying your turbo stuff rather than fabricating it yourself. Add another $1000 for tuning and misc parts. You're looking at roughly $8500.

LQ9 isn't the only option. Both of mine are smaller than a 6.0. You can use almost any block for a 1000 HP basis (I'd skip out on the 5.7 blocks due to cylinder liner thickness issues).

JoeNova

On another note, are you located in Ohio? What part?

Schroeder3

Great info. Thanks. Do you care to share your parts list? I found that in my last build I spent soooo much time researching parts, and yes, some may say that's the name of the game. I don't look at it like that though. It seems like this build is almost kind of standard or a "cookie-cutter" build, so I'm looking for a BOM and cost basically.

I prefer to just buy it all. I have a TIG wekder and everything, but the time I'll spend doing everything myself outweighs the cost of just paying for it up front.

Again, does the list in the article seem feasible and in my price range. If it can be done for less I'm all for that too! This is my first swing at FI, so I have no idea.


You say you're on a factory long block. Is this due to the budget concerns you had, or is it because they're simply tough enough? Again, I like the idea of de-stroking the engine because I see gains in the engine's life, right?




I am in NW Ohio. Leipsic/Miller-City Putnam county .

JoeNova

Budget more than anything. Your 10k budget is more than I've spent on any one car, ever, and the more often I build them, the more budget they become.

A de-stroked 6.0 isn't a cookie cutter build. There are only a handful of them out there, and Jakson has the only one making any real power.

Schroeder3

Great info. Thanks for the insight. Does your 1000hp engine make it at the wheels? What torque numbers does it make at the wheels? Do you have a build thread?

We've elduded to a couple different points in these last posts.

1.) I like cookie-cutter builds .The leg work is done, the builds tried and true, and usually you avoid surprises and pushing components' limits too much.

2.) If the lq9 isn't the best choice for what I'm looking for, what are the other reliable and cheap options? There isn't anything that can cheaply and reliably do this in aluminum is there?

The reason for thinking the lq9 was the best candidate was because I read that it was indestructible and cheap to make 1000+ numbers at the wheels with. Several posts back you said I could use blocks other than that of a 5.3 .Can you be more specific? I'd love to hear!

3.) This is more of a comment than anything. You mentioned making "real" power. I've noticed on different forums people turboing stuff with hopes of 600-700 hp and j always wonder "what's the point?" That can be done with NA, granted you're probably talking a lot of work and maybe dollars. If you're gonna turbo something go big!!

Thanks all!

Oh, and of course, it needs to run on pump gas only!

JoeNova

1. Almost every combo has been done. There are still very very few things with LS engines you can do that hasn't been done at least a few times. I could give you a list of 20 cams, 20 turbos, 10 intake manifolds, and 3 different engine sizes, and no matter which you choose, its been done.

2. The 5.3/5.7/6.0/6.2 all share the same crank. The only differences typically being the way they were balanced. Strength is the same. 4.8 crank is shorter stroke and typically believed to be the strongest. 7.0 crank has longer stroke. Even though the 4.8 crank is strongest on paper, the 3.622 stroke cranks in the other engines have all been 1400-1500 HP, so the added strength isn't exactly an issue. Each of the 3 cranks has its own rod length as well. 4.8 has longer rods. 5.3/5.7/6.0/6.2 use the same rods as well as crank.

Gen 3 rods (97-early 04) are weaker, but have still been has high as 1450 or so on an engine dyno. Typically, they start to show their weakness above 600whp through an auto. A few guys have had the gen 3 5.3 rods up in the 900s at the tire, with a few 4.8s over the 4 digit mark at the tire.

Everything after 05 had beefy floating wrist pin rods that should be able to withstand ~30-40% more power than the gen 3 rods. Gen 4 rods have been low 7s in the quarter mile, with 3 other cars now running in the 7s (All of them are 5.3s, with the exception of a 4.8 that was temporarily ran in place of a blown 5.3).

So as far as the LQ9 being bulletproof, it shares the same basic rotating assembly as any other engine of that year. If you want an aluminum block, the 5.3 is definitely the way to go.

None of that matters if you swap out for forged rods/pistons.

3. I haven't made 1000 at the wheels with either of them. As long as everything goes OK with my corvette in a couple of months, I'll have 2 cars at a bare minimum of 800 at the tire, both through autos, both on pump gas. One of them might make take a shot at 4 digits eventually, but my Nova is a street only car, and the corvette weighs like 2300 lbs and has no body on it, so its scary to drive even with 400 HP.

Schroeder3

Thanks. Is something like what I'm doing even safe or reliable with an aluminum block? I thought you mentioned before the 5.3 has thinner cylinder walls. What considerations in parts selection should be made for getting the power band in the proper place? The 4.8 crank would rev higher but probably wouldn't have much low end torque would it? How do people combat tueboclag these days?...ugh. So much reading to do!!

Does a guy get a set of lsa head on any of the blocks you listed, hand port em, and slap em on? How do you know when you're done porting if you do this?


My 77TA is gonna be heavy. Probably 3400-3600lb. It is getting a cage.

​​​

JoeNova

The 5.7s are the ones you typically want to avoid. Nothing with with the 5.3.

A aluminum 5.3 with a stock crank, and a set of forged rods/pistons would be a good combo.

LSA heads will only fit a 6.0 or larger block. Most guys don't bother with big port or big bore heads with a turbo. They work great N/A, not really needed as much when you are the one choosing how much air goes through them.

rpm-inc

iTrader: (2)

Probably my favorite car. Aluminum gen 4 5.3 and turbo! A good friend has a super mint bandit car with an na 475 horse ls3 and 6 spd. DO IT!!!!!!!!!

Schroeder3

Any particular block code I should look for or avoid? And with this base you think I'll be able to get 800-1000 rhwp and ftlbs? 6.0 isn't needed?

EDIT: reading stuff all over google rigght now about just using a 5.3 .a lot of the searches lead here or to yellow bullet. Someone offered this to the OP of a topic very similar tt mine. Very interesting what they found. The engine ended up being a 4.8.

www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1109-stock-gm-ls-engine-big-bang-theory/

Schroeder3

Is a "gen 4" 5.3 the 2010 era? Do most of these big numbers builds on here, or the ones we're eluding to in this thread, utilize different size turbos? A smaller one to avoid lag and have low end power, and a larger one for power through the rest of the rpm?

Is anyone doing the variable geometry thing or anything crazy like that?

What do I have to think about for wiring? Fuel systems are expenive for these big numbers builds too, aren't they? I'll probably need something with 2 electric pumps won't I? Does in take or out of tank pump make much of a difference?

JoeNova

Everything up to 04 is gen 3. Everything 08 and later is Gen 4. 05-07 were overlap years but they were all have the stronger rods.

Turbo lag isn't much of an issue like it was 20 years ago. Sometimes I wish mine would spool slower. Proper cam and torque converter go a LONG way.

For a single turbo, I'd recommend an 80mm Borg Warner. Even a standard cast T6 for $850 is 1000 HP capable.

In tank or external pumps is up to you. To run internals, you'll need a tank designed for them. If you want to keep costs down, you can run 2 smaller, cheaper pumps. A pair of Walbro 450s if you want to go in-tank, or a pair of AEM 400s for external. Either way will cost you about $300 in fuel pumps.

LS1-IROC

iTrader: (4)

Wow, Putnam county. Used to spend my summers down there at my grandparents farm (between Miller City and Continental). Good luck on your build.

Schroeder3

Btw, this is on a manual car with a new T56 magnum and Moser 9" rear end with 3.70 gears.


Ok, so I'll look for like a 2010-2012 aluminun 5.3. What specific block and head numbers should I look for? I'll put forged rods and pistons in and leave the stock crank. Then there's these questions that come to mind at the moment. I'm sure there are a TON more. These only address the engine hardware and not the turbo plumbing, control, etc.

1.) Do I use the stock intake?
2.) What sort of cam (on the aggressive side) do guys throw in for big power? I have a .6" lift can now where installed at 108° at .05" is 246° on the intake and 252° on the exhaust. That's an NA engine though.
3.)what ratio rocker arms should I use and what kind?
4.) Are stock pushrods good?
5.) What about stock valves? Does anything need to be ceramic coated or titanium here?
6.)throttle body?
7.)I think I'd plan on ARP head studs and connecting rod bolts.
8.) Do I need bigger than stock fuel rails?
8.)what size injectors are we talking here? I'm sure we're about as big as we can get here.
9.) An 80mm turbo will handle this? I was thinking something small for low rpms and a 76 for the rest of the RPM range after 3000. I thought twin would give better all around performance.


Ls1-iroc, yes continental is about 10 miles west of me!

JoeNova

All gen 4 5.3s will have the same heads, no issues there. Block casting won't matter much either.

1. Yes, you can use any of the stock intakes, from the trucks or cars, as long as its cathedral port.
2. You'll want to keep duration at .050" in the 220s/230s. Most mild LS cams have .600" lift or so.
3. Stock.
4. Stock work 99% of the time. You can upgrade if you want piece of mind. Depending on camshaft, you might need to get shorter/longer.
5. Stock.
6. Stock.
7. Forged rods will have ARP bolts. Head studs are a great idea for an aluminum block.
8. Depends a lot on the situation. Most of the factory rails have been in the 800-1000 range but it depends on regulator setup and fuel pressure.
9. I have a billet 80mm on my aluminum 5.3. On my low boost street tune, I made over 700 ft-lbs at the wheels below 4000 RPM on a dyno called "The Heartbreaker" because of its notoriously low numbers. My cam/converter/turbo combo is amazing. Spool will depend more on the turbine side of the turbo than the compressor side.