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Ls turbo into a mercedes amg

 
Old 10-09-2018, 12:15 AM
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Default Ls turbo into a mercedes amg

As the title states i have a Mercedes and the engine and transmission are F*****d. I have been a GM guy forever. Worked at GM dealers for 25 years as a tune-up tech. The Mercedes guys hate my idea but I love it.
The idea is to go with an LS and a GM auto trans. My goal is to make just a bit more HP than the V12 tt CL65 put out. I think it made about 550 or so to the wheels. So you guys know my car broken as it is has little to no value money wise and running about 15k, so its not like I'm bastardizing a valuable car.
My goal is to get to 600-700 wheel HP. I want to build the motor myself, it's the machining and parts list where I get in trouble.
I've read a ton, watched a million videos. I've built two V8 Porsche 914 the last having an LS1 including a ton of cool features. That engine I built but it was a simple factory rebuild, adding turbos and 200 more HP is another story.
Here's my idea of a parts list ************************************************** ************************* ya I can buy a ton of stuff but I need help. Can y'all send me to a link that will help me along ?? I'm 63 and retired and have plenty of time to get this car running !!!!



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Old 10-09-2018, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by driveability View Post
As the title states i have a Mercedes and the engine and transmission are F*****d. I have been a GM guy forever. Worked at GM dealers for 25 years as a tune-up tech. The Mercedes guys hate my idea but I love it.
The idea is to go with an LS and a GM auto trans. My goal is to make just a bit more HP than the V12 tt CL65 put out. I think it made about 550 or so to the wheels. So you guys know my car broken as it is has little to no value money wise and running about 15k, so its not like I'm bastardizing a valuable car.
My goal is to get to 600-700 wheel HP. I want to build the motor myself, it's the machining and parts list where I get in trouble.
I've read a ton, watched a million videos. I've built two V8 Porsche 914 the last having an LS1 including a ton of cool features. That engine I built but it was a simple factory rebuild, adding turbos and 200 more HP is another story.
Here's my idea of a parts list ************************************************** ************************* ya I can buy a ton of stuff but I need help. Can y'all send me to a link that will help me along ?? I'm 63 and retired and have plenty of time to get this car running !!!!

The engine and trans swap are a pretty simple matter of relocating some mounting brackets. The big problem is making the body stuff work. Mercs use a series of different modules that communicate on the CAN bus, and making any of that communicate with a gm PCM would be a troublesome matter. The amenities that make Mercedes the car that they are come with significant issues if you try to do anything different with them. I applaud your idea, but I worry that it will never come to fruition in a manner that both keeps the things that makes your vehicle better while giving you the powertrain you want. Please prove me wrong. I would live to see this happen, but I believe reality is about to kick your ***.
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:57 AM
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There's a guy up here in the PNW with an older AMG who swapped an LS 408" with a 78mm turbo.
It's a little ratty but laid down 800whp and watching him do 1/8 mile burnouts at the last roll race event was very satisfying lol.
Haters gonna hate.
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:59 AM
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The CANBUS aspect as stated makes this a difficult swap to make everything function. I would research that first as it will be the biggest PITA!
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Old 10-09-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gnx7 View Post
The CANBUS aspect as stated makes this a difficult swap to make everything function. I would research that first as it will be the biggest PITA!
Would it be possible to do a stand alone controller for the engine and transmission and leave the Merc stuff in place to handle the creature comforts?
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Old 10-09-2018, 12:57 PM
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It's my understanding that each module talks to each other must do a "hand off" of information to not throw a code/light up the dash like a Christmas tree. Delete a module.... and you need some form of piggy back to translate the required info. Not an easy task if one doesn't exist.
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:50 PM
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Guys Guys Guys
The integration of Benz systems wasn't the reason for the post. Your thoughts on the non-compatibility ring true. I'm going to address that this way, Standalone system, use a race type I.P. cluster, I'm replacing the ABC suspension system with coilovers and sway bars. The stability / traction control is gone with the suspension change, and is turned off (switch in the dash) any time I want to go fast.

(The question is what block, crank, rods, pistons, cam, lifters, push rods, heads, springs, valves, rockers, throttle body, injectors, turbos, supercharger ?) I want to build the engine myself, don't want to over build something but just make around 600 - 700 WHP.
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Old 10-09-2018, 03:22 PM
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Cool project, I've owned a few AMG 6.2's. Love those engines, better than my LS3, but out of my league to turbo them to a standard I'd want.

A stock LS3 will take the power you want with minor work. Mine is at 663rwhp on stock motor other than 040 cometic gaskets and a mild cam, springs, pushrods package.

If you are going to lean on it and do road racing/track events so the car is going to be asked to spend extended periods at 700rwhp - then a build is smart. That's where I am at too. My motor has done a few 000km now on closed road events and the odd track day, it's down 15psi on 1 cylinder - nothing some would say - but it wasn't down before, so I'm thinking I've had it lucky so far and a build is on the cards.

For me, I will have the block CNC trued up, torque plate honed, ARP studs in head and mains, getting a piston squirter system installed, will go to H beam forged rods (Callies) and coated forged pistons (Diamond or CP likely), sticking with a replacement 040 cometic head gasket for tight quench, and lowering compression from 11.1 to about 10.5 (via small piston dish), going a bit warmer on cam (230/230) with springs and pushrods etc to match, Katech oil pump, (already have the windage/baffled pan) and it'll be good to go. Might add a vacuum pump to go with the thinner ring set and freshen the heads with titanium and iconel valves and new valve job etc.

Don't go for the cheaper brand parts that are rated for the power you are looking at is my advice. When OEM parts hold up at 1000rwhp why spend mponey on good marketing bulllshit quality. Spend the extra and make what parts you do get good ones (ie. rated at well above the power you need). Callies Ultra billet rods are good and cheaper than Carillo, CP, Mahle, and Diamond pistons - all good, many oil pump choices - but Katech is a no brainer, piston squirters if you lean on it (why? because GM thought so too on the LSA and LS9).

Stroker crank will take you right past your humble goals but the extra bottom end torque may prove a handful to actually use. I think 700rwhp is the sweet spot in a car like you have - fun and more than enough bottom end to blow tires off, yet capable of hooking all of it with DOT tires and a good set up. Once you start adding cubes - you will find traction is an issue even with DOT tires unless you are going to tub the car and add monsters. I'd stick with 6.2L (go up 0.005 to 4.07 and run AMG 6.3 badges lolz)

Oh yeah - don't forget the cooling. Avoiding heat soak is the biggie and a front mount intercooler is the fastest way to get heat soak, so if you go that way - shroud the radiator and run cowlings top and bottom to get air in there because the engine needs all the cooling it can get. Add oil coolers to engine and trans. If you can string 5 hot laps together in Summer you know you nailed it.

Last edited by Bazman; 10-09-2018 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 10-09-2018, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bazman View Post
Cool project, I've owned a few AMG 6.2's. Love those engines, better than my LS3, but out of my league to turbo them to a standard I'd want.

A stock LS3 will take the power you want with minor work. Mine is at 663rwhp on stock motor other than 040 cometic gaskets and a mild cam, springs, pushrods package.

If you are going to lean on it and do road racing/track events so the car is going to be asked to spend extended periods at 700rwhp - then a build is smart. That's where I am at too. My motor has done a few 000km now on closed road events and the odd track day, it's down 15psi on 1 cylinder - nothing some would say - but it wasn't down before, so I'm thinking I've had it lucky so far and a build is on the cards.

For me, I will have the block CNC trued up, torque plate honed, ARP studs in head and mains, getting a piston squirter system installed, will go to H beam forged rods (Callies) and coated forged pistons (Diamond or CP likely), sticking with a replacement 040 cometic head gasket for tight quench, and lowering compression from 11.1 to about 10.5 (via small piston dish), going a bit warmer on cam (230/230) with springs and pushrods etc to match, Katech oil pump, (already have the windage/baffled pan) and it'll be good to go. Might add a vacuum pump to go with the thinner ring set and freshen the heads with titanium and iconel valves and new valve job etc.

Don't go for the cheaper brand parts that are rated for the power you are looking at is my advice. When OEM parts hold up at 1000rwhp why spend mponey on good marketing bulllshit quality. Spend the extra and make what parts you do get good ones (ie. rated at well above the power you need). Callies Ultra billet rods are good and cheaper than Carillo, CP, Mahle, and Diamond pistons - all good, many oil pump choices - but Katech is a no brainer, piston squirters if you lean on it (why? because GM thought so too on the LSA and LS9).

Stroker crank will take you right past your humble goals but the extra bottom end torque may prove a handful to actually use. I think 700rwhp is the sweet spot in a car like you have - fun and more than enough bottom end to blow tires off, yet capable of hooking all of it with DOT tires and a good set up. Once you start adding cubes - you will find traction is an issue even with DOT tires unless you are going to tub the car and add monsters. I'd stick with 6.2L (go up 0.005 to 4.07 and run AMG 6.3 badges lolz)

Oh yeah - don't forget the cooling. Avoiding heat soak is the biggie and a front mount intercooler is the fastest way to get heat soak, so if you go that way - shroud the radiator and run cowlings top and bottom to get air in there because the engine needs all the cooling it can get. Add oil coolers to engine and trans. If you can string 5 hot laps together in Summer you know you nailed it.
PM SENT
Thanks for the great information, I'll be asking more questions and will keep a log here as I go along !!!!!!!!


I'll be receiving a P-Ayr mock up LS3 and 4L80 soon so i can start the setup work !!!!!!
I'm using YellowSpeed coilover setup to replace that crazy (but fantastic when new) computer controlled suspension system.
You folks should read up on the ABC system Mercedes suspension, its very interesting.



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Old 10-09-2018, 08:09 PM
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Yessss!!!
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Old 10-09-2018, 08:33 PM
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A 416 (LS3 based) or 427 LS7 setup all motor will make 600rwhp with a healthy setup and deliver snappy power. Beyond that you can easily make 1000rwhp and still have it a street car with a production block, stock cast crank, with forged rods/pistons and a turbo or supercharger. Making 600rwhp is a lot easier on the pocket book..... beyond that cost some $$$$.
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:44 AM
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I thought I would share my former car a Porsche 914 which had the complete front and rear suspension / brakes of a 2003 Porsche 911 along with a G-50 5 speed trans. It had a Ls1 along with power steering run with a electric pump via a 1990 Toyota MR2. I sold it to a big money builder in Las Vegas where it will get tens of thousands invested in to it !!!!! That's one I would like to get back






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Old 10-10-2018, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by driveability View Post
Guys Guys Guys
The integration of Benz systems wasn't the reason for the post. Your thoughts on the non-compatibility ring true. I'm going to address that this way, Standalone system, use a race type I.P. cluster, I'm replacing the ABC suspension system with coilovers and sway bars. The stability / traction control is gone with the suspension change, and is turned off (switch in the dash) any time I want to go fast.

(The question is what block, crank, rods, pistons, cam, lifters, push rods, heads, springs, valves, rockers, throttle body, injectors, turbos, supercharger ?) I want to build the engine myself, don't want to over build something but just make around 600 - 700 WHP.
I understand where you are coming from, but the systems are so integrated with the CAN bus that simple tasks like rolling up a window or opening your trunk or fuel door may be impossible if you don't address the incompatibilities. I recently had water in my battery box on an e320, and the door lock control module it killed also affects windows, interior lights, fuel door, trunk and anti theft. I am led to believe that on some models the HVAC vents are also affected. Being willing to forgo comforts are one thing, but opening the trunk and fuel door are sort of a big deal.
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Old 10-10-2018, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by driveability View Post
Guys Guys Guys
The integration of Benz systems wasn't the reason for the post. Your thoughts on the non-compatibility ring true. I'm going to address that this way, Standalone system, use a race type I.P. cluster, I'm replacing the ABC suspension system with coilovers and sway bars. The stability / traction control is gone with the suspension change, and is turned off (switch in the dash) any time I want to go fast.

(The question is what block, crank, rods, pistons, cam, lifters, push rods, heads, springs, valves, rockers, throttle body, injectors, turbos, supercharger ?) I want to build the engine myself, don't want to over build something but just make around 600 - 700 WHP.
If that's the case then here's my suggestion:
Gen IV 5.3 engine with 100K or so miles
LS6 intake / TB (Truck intake may not clear the hood)
LJMS or BTS Turbo Cam package (cam, springs, retainers and push rods)
Twin Walbro 255's with one on a Hobbs switch
80 lb. Siemens Injectors
7875 Turbo (could go name brand or VS racing)
This combo will make 700 whp on pump gas only all day and be dead nuts reliable as well as very cost effective.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:03 PM
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Nice work on that 914. Love the headers
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:25 PM
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I have been involved with automotive computer control systems. Working as a GM tune-up and driveability tech for 25 years. I also have an advanced scan tool and can access those modules. That by no means mean I can reprogram but having been able to operate the basic systems with the engine computer and engine out of the car looks promising. There will surely be issues, no stability control, but most everything I can provide
suitable inputs and will hopefully get the anti-lock brakes and cruse control up and running. I will use something like this pictured below. I don't have all the answers however I have a great resource right here

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Old 10-12-2018, 03:23 AM
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In that case, I apologize for the tone of my previous post. We routinely have people asking questions about things with no idea of even so much as the proper questions, much less an idea of how far "in over their head" they would be on a project. It sounds like you have a good handle on what you are getting into. Carry on.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by gametech View Post
In that case, I apologize for the tone of my previous post. We routinely have people asking questions about things with no idea of even so much as the proper questions, much less an idea of how far "in over their head" they would be on a project. It sounds like you have a good handle on what you are getting into. Carry on.
Thats so so true LOL, doing swaps correctly takes work, trial and error repeat. Once you have the motor/engine in then making it work well is another long process. My 914 was just as hard to put it together as to make it work well on the road.

Last edited by driveability; 10-12-2018 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by driveability View Post
Thats so so true LOL, doing swaps correctly takes work, trial and error repeat. Once you have the motor/engine in then making it work well is another long process. My 914 was just as hard to put it together as to make it work well on the road.
I would still love to see an LS motor fully integrated into the BCM, trans control, and SAM modules on a Benz.
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Old 10-21-2018, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by driveability View Post
I thought I would share my former car a Porsche 914 which had the complete front and rear suspension / brakes of a 2003 Porsche 911 along with a G-50 5 speed trans. It had a Ls1 along with power steering run with a electric pump via a 1990 Toyota MR2. I sold it to a big money builder in Las Vegas where it will get tens of thousands invested in to it !!!!! That's one I would like to get back


Do you have more pictures of your build? Looking to see if you had more pictures of how you swapped the suspension components into your 914.
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