TrendSetter

I ran them using a pwm generator as a temporary source of speed signal.
the part that failed for me is what delta pag calls a ‘ecu’ which is the brushless motor controller, which takes in dc volts and a square wave speed signal to output 3 phase ac directly to the motor.
Every other brushless fan i am aware of has this controller built into the motor itself.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

This is making the proforms look so much better. Especially for the price.

ALL ULL C

iTrader: (17)

Yeah that is actually one of the talking points in Deltapag's design philosophy is getting the electronics out of the motor area and just letting it be the motor only, hence the smaller packaging space w/brushless motor.

I see several high end drag-n-drive builds with these fans but I'd bet the are just using that only and running them through I/O side of engine management. Just saw Devin Vanderhoof's video on newer Silverado brushless:
Sorry Kfxguy, kinda sending this one off on a tangent, hoping you get better results.

The BallSS

iTrader: (9)

If I had to guess I'd assume he designed them that way to be serviceable so if the controller fails, you're not replacing the whole fan assembly.

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

not really a good comparison. That cold case fan is a basic eBay 120w cheap fan. A standard spal brushed motor would be a big upgrade to that.

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

ouch! That sucks and they got you for another $140. I hope they last a bit for you.

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

They say they do this to make it serviceable but also it allows the hub to be smaller and more power dense while blocking less airflow. Basically it solves a few problems by designing it that way and technically the motor will take forever to wear out... well most brushless motors don't fail its the electronics that control them. On RC cars this is basically how its done and the motors never really need to get swapped but its easy to go through ECMs (the part that takes the amp load and controls the motor). As long as the motors stay cool they will just keep going and going. What I find interesting is that he says the ECU only lasts about 10,000 hours but the motors are like 40,000hrs. If your fan ran 2hrs a day every day for 5 years thats about 3,650hrs.

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

Gotta be careful with this. I did the same and got a new fan 2021 model for a chevy malibu which had the correct shroud size and a big 600w motor. I have been trying to figure out how to turn it on as it looks like a PWM fan but nothing is working. Some OEMs are moving towards LIN/SERIAL based control and PWM doesn't work so you are SOL. Your kinda stuck not knowing exactly what will work and not work and the big guys don't tell you when they change there systems. FYI the malibu has the same SPAL Yazaki connector and everything as all other PWM fans but no dice. Now I have to return it.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

no worries at all. More info the better!

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

I just talked to Dennis a few minutes ago. Was checking on tracking for my fans. we talked for a bit and in our conversation he said the manufacturer tested the new batch up to 300 degrees and they didn't fail or shutdown. He said he tested them himself to 240f (thats the highest he could get them up to which his test equipment) and they did not shut down or fail. We gonna see next week because we are supposed to have some record temps here!

TrendSetter

totally. i feel they are very well engineering design. the smaller motor gives more fin and airflow area, the controller is servicable. if a spal had the same failure the entire fan is trash.
unfortunately when talking to them it seemed like there was a lot of 'gotchas' on wiring and their controllers last forever in perfect conditions but aren't fault tolerant at all.
i cant figure out what i could have possibly done to induce the failure either. all the wiring was fully crimped and installed, fused, relayed, tefzel good wiring, gt280 terminals, etc. the only temporary wiring i had was to the pwm signal stuff.

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

yea but if the electronics are fragile or not tolerant of fluctuations I can’t see that being a good thing and all those positives are poo without a working fan. Another thing to consider is will delta PAG be in business in 10 years or 20 years? Seems like a small outfit for longevity and parts availability. Plus if a spal or whatever dies in 10 years your prob not going to replace it with the same thing… 10 years is a long time for technology to advance and your likely going to put the newest thing in it.

oem fans which now include spal last 100k+ miles so for people like us that put 500-1000miles a summer on our cars the fans will likely outlive the car but we all know we can’t leave well enough alone and will swap stuff out requiring different cooling needs or fans size yadda yadda lol.

sounds like you did everything you should have. I wonder if it could have been the PWM generator? Seems like the cheapest part in the system and widget man on eBay was saying the generators with the dual buttons on both sides are not as reliable as the older versions with just the **** and on/off button. Maybe you had a spike or a poor ground? A lot of people don’t ohm out there connections and I don’t do it every time either but when I know signal or the best connection is needed I crimp and solder the crimp just to be sure.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

good points. I tend to keep cars for quite a while so the point of them still being in business years from now is important. If the controller dies and I cant get another, I wasted almost a grand or even more if I’ve replaced a controller before then.

DeltaPAG

Well that's not fair David. "I'm not planning to use them again"

It's not fair because you called me regarding the snipers limited functionality with pwm. I told you not to try jerryrigging something, odds are you'll blow the sniper or an ECM. But you did it anyway. Call me Nostradamus. Most likely it was a short either through the ground ref wire or the gray pwm wire. $15 Chinese pwm box... really? Those are known as not reliable. Im sure they never expected anyone to use them in a car, let alone under the hood. I've seen them act like a boost converter and output +50v pwm

Anyway, luckily, our motors are kinda indestructible (dont put direct power to the motor wires or hit it with a sledgehammer, this is not a challeng) and an ECM is easy to replace. Also its cheaper and easier to replace than any other brushless fans, only $140. Look, i get it, screwing around with things to see how they work is fun. But $h!t happens. You can't blame the product.

What I don't get it though, for $100 more you get a really neat stand-alone digital controller able to operate both fans independently, a waterproof dual relay/fuse module, 1% accurate sensor and a wiring harness. We price it that low to incentives to go that route vs trying to zap things into submission.

BTW, Delta PAG has been in business for over 15yrs and has sold 10s of thousands of cooling systems. Our parent company has been on business for over 40yrs and we're 100% debt free, for those that know whats coming, macro econ.

TrendSetter

lets see, i spent a bunch more than i needed to buy your product, it failed on me in 15 minutes and the only feedback i get from you is im stupid, i jerry rig everything and im on my own. you had basically nothing positive or useful to say to me, you actually told me more ways that your ecm can die than ways it can live. why would anyone with that experience NOT look for other options for future builds.
this is really confusing. are you saying everyone using a standalone ecu to control external devices is jerryrigging? is your ecm not compatible with standard pwm that thousands and thousands of other devices use every day? pwm control between devices is extremely simple and anyone that disagrees probably just doesnt understand it very well.
what i actually called you about was to confirm i could run the fan 100% per one of your diagrams while i figured out a pwm solution. my concern was the undocumented ~20 amp current draw compared to the 14 amp documented. there seemed to be enough caveats to wiring these things i felt it was worth asking to make sure. it didnt feel like i ever got a straight answer though, just a lecture about buying your controller.
both small black and small gray wires are tied together at the fans. if that was the case both should have died.

maybe you didnt hear when i explained to you that i am having overheating problems with this car, wanted to chase that down first, and never moved the car out of the garage or drove it at all. the fans were running fine then one failed with a dead short in the ecm with no changes to anything i was doing. It lasted 15 minutes.
i fully built a harness for both fans with relays and fuses using one of these: https://www.waytekwire.com/product/l...r-distribution is that jerry rigging to you?
instantly calling all my work jerryrigging without seeing it, when youre sending out wiring harnesses with open unsealed positions (i inserted plugs in mine) and your mcu ground (the one you told me is tied directly to the mcu and can instantly kill it) tied into your power ground was interesting as well.

so because the ecm is 'easy to replace' its ok to be so prone to failure?

its not 2005 anymore, nobody wants 400 individual control boxes hidden all over their car if they can do everything with a single system. i overlooked the fact that a sniper doesnt do pwm-.

which is why i chose to buy your product to begin with when there are many other options out there at lower cost. it looks like a great product, i like your approach in general. the fans are really nice. but i think you should consider updating your ECM hardware to be more robust. its really not hard to add reverse and over voltage protection, brown out detection, and many other similar features.

I really wanted to keep this as a positive discussion, and i reinforced multiple times what i like about the fans but was asked how it turned out. should i have lied? "one lasted 15 minutes and cost me an extra $140 out of pocket, but at least the guy on the phone insinuated i am stupid"

DeltaPAG

David, I did not call you stupid. Do I think you messed up the wiring, yeah. BTW, we all do stupid things from time to time, doesn't necessarily make us full retards. But we own our f-ups, learn and lick our wounds. Not blame someone or something else. If someone asks how's it going? Don't lie, say I had a setback, I'll keep you posted. Or say, I screwed something up, I'll let everyone know what not to do.

Yes, you made a mistake, pairing the ground ref wire with the gray wire is where your mistake is. Please undo that before you get the new parts. If you have the second fan wired that way, quickly undo it, if you haven't already or it most definitely will fail too. Please take a moment and read our instructions on our website. There're some nice wiring schematics that show everything. Also, read page 8 on setting up the operating settings on the controller. You must base it off of the thermostat that's in the engine.

Yes, we did look into adding a bunch of "protections" like reverse current, ect. but every option greatly reduced the operating life of the ecm. Basically you have all the power go through a huge diode, or single fet, massively reduces life. So we're not going to reduce the quality of our product to protect people that do stupid stuff. F-ing around and screwed something up? no worries, we'll sell you another ECM. Dont be retarded, read the instructions and dont do it again. Alternatively, there's a bunch of people trying to jerry rig oem brushless fans and are burning those up too and sometimes burning down their car (true story, i've kinda become their therapist). With the Delta PAG system, your oops is just a failed ECM.

There are a ton of things you can do to destroy every car part. Just follow the instructions and if you're thinking of doing your own thing, call or you're on your own. Ever hit a windshield with a sharp part of a hammer? No, ok, you know that one. But did you know welding on the chassis when ground is connected to chassis is a very common way to destroy electronics and our ECMs? Less commonly known, happens all the time, holley is having a heck of a time trying to tell people not to do that. That's why keeping an extra ecm is a good idea, especially for racing or cars that get constantly worked on.

Just install it properly and you'll be good and have reliable 4,200 cfm of air.

TrendSetter

let me clarify so that we are both on the same page here.
i have two fans, each has a small black and small gray.
i tied the two small blacks together. i tied the two small grays together.
the small black went to ground reference.
the small gray went to pwm signal.

TrendSetter

this post is just dripping with assumptions that everyone in the world is stupid except you.

TrendSetter

what a weird train of thought. so lets confirm; adding a small number of solid state devices like fets and diodes will reduce your mtbf signifcantly? so does that imply that your BOM doesn't already have any of those devices (or applicable variants) already? even so, you decided that building protections into an automotive grade electronic device wasn't worth the theoretical lifespan in the PERFECT conditions required for it to survive with no protection implemented? i guess its not the most counter-intuitive engineering approach ive seen in my career.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

there’s many things that have protections built in and they last a long long time. His statement about adding protections will shorten the life greatly is a blaring big bag of bologna. Smh.

I guess by his statements, we are all just a bunch or retarded jerryriggers. lol.