Air to Water or Air to Air cooling.. An arguement we have had for years.....
02-28-2006, 01:52 PM
#1
Air to Water or Air to Air cooling.. An arguement we have had for years..... My friend is a Die Hard Vortech lover. I love my ATI Procharger..
OK..
Basic background, he's had his LS1 G-Trim Vortech on his car ever since it came out many years ago.. I almost bought one but I went instead with the ATI setup when it 1st came out.. Since then we have always talked about which is better.. I believe both kits have their Pros and Cons, but with the subject of cooling down the air effectivly, I believe that a Air to Air intercooler is better than Air to Water, ATI VS Vortech setups.. I know that an aftermarket Air to Water Aftercooler is amazing at lowering the intake temps, but I'm talking about the small Vortech unit provided in their kits..
As of right now, I'm putting more power down, but with different setups and cams and such.. I've got a forged motor, his still stock. but in the past when we were the closest here were the stats. He was and still is at 547RWHP on a Bone Stock Motor with 10 to 11PSI of boost, G-Trim Vortech 2.75 Pulley, MAC Headers w/gutted cats Superchips Tune, 12Bolt w/3.73 gears.
To compare correctly, I was at one point a Stock motor. At that time, I put down 524RWHP with 7 to 8psi of boost, Bone Stock Motor, SLP LT headers ATI 6rib Setup P1SC Blower, Stock Injectors with the ATI FMU pushing my Fuel Rail to 100psi at Max RPM, 12 Bolt w/3.73 gears.
Our cars were virturaly identicle in speed and ability..
But since the begining we have always talked about which is better, Vortech or Procharger..
Below is a Email Trent my long time friend has sent me.. It's interesting and I wanted to share it with all of you.
And the 2nd post is my reply to to this email..
OK..
Basic background, he's had his LS1 G-Trim Vortech on his car ever since it came out many years ago.. I almost bought one but I went instead with the ATI setup when it 1st came out.. Since then we have always talked about which is better.. I believe both kits have their Pros and Cons, but with the subject of cooling down the air effectivly, I believe that a Air to Air intercooler is better than Air to Water, ATI VS Vortech setups.. I know that an aftermarket Air to Water Aftercooler is amazing at lowering the intake temps, but I'm talking about the small Vortech unit provided in their kits..
As of right now, I'm putting more power down, but with different setups and cams and such.. I've got a forged motor, his still stock. but in the past when we were the closest here were the stats. He was and still is at 547RWHP on a Bone Stock Motor with 10 to 11PSI of boost, G-Trim Vortech 2.75 Pulley, MAC Headers w/gutted cats Superchips Tune, 12Bolt w/3.73 gears.
To compare correctly, I was at one point a Stock motor. At that time, I put down 524RWHP with 7 to 8psi of boost, Bone Stock Motor, SLP LT headers ATI 6rib Setup P1SC Blower, Stock Injectors with the ATI FMU pushing my Fuel Rail to 100psi at Max RPM, 12 Bolt w/3.73 gears.
Our cars were virturaly identicle in speed and ability..
But since the begining we have always talked about which is better, Vortech or Procharger..
Below is a Email Trent my long time friend has sent me.. It's interesting and I wanted to share it with all of you.
And the 2nd post is my reply to to this email..
CLINT... What's Better? Air-to-Water or Air-to-Air?
In an air-to-air intercooler system, the charge air at the supercharger
inlet is ducted from a heat exchanger assembly, cooled, and then continues thru the supercharger on to the engine inlet. The heat exchanger assembly must be placed where the outside cooling air passes through it. The cooling efficiency is dictated by the heat exchanger design and size, and the flow and temperature of the air passing through it. You also need to take into consideration the boost loss, packaging within the vehicle, interaction with other cooling systems, and convection heating of the system. Air-to-air systems have little significant thermal transition. This means that the relatively low mass of the heat exchanger system heats
and cools almost instantly and the system relies on its effectiveness
for any benefits.In an air-to-water aftercooler system, the charge air at the supercharger discharge is ducted to a heat exchanger assembly, cooled, and then continues to the engine inlet very much like the air-to-air. However, the air-to-water heat exchanger assembly does not need direct exposure to outside cooling air, and it can be much smaller. Because of this, the heat exchanger can be placed right in the existing path between the supercharger discharge and the engine inlet. With no additional ducting or tubes with bends, and a more effective and compact air-to-water heat exchanger, there are much lower frictional losses. Air-to-water aftercooler system employs a second heat exchanger or "radiator" to
remove the heat from the system. The second heat exchanger sits in the cooling air, right ahead of the engine’s radiator. The heat exchange actually occurs air-to-water-to-air, but this is still called an air-to-water system. In this system, water is routed from a storage reservoir to the "radiator", where it is cooled, up through the heat exchanger assembly, then back to the reservoir. This cooling loop is completely separate from the engine cooling system and continuously cools the water.
Clint,
This means that your air to air system on a hot summer day sucks.
Its there for looks unless you are running at least 90 mph to cool the
intercooler with 100 degree ambient air. I found this article from a world war 2 airplane mechanic talking about how all their p51 mustangs ran centrifical supercharger with aftercoolers. I couldnt believe that!! You would think air to air intercooler in a plane
but the mechanic claimed thats why they were all designed with
aftercoolers more efficient less boost loss, and a more consistent
dense air charge......ya baby Vortech baby ya.....That means that big
intercooler Brian 2k2CamaroSS has looks better then it really helps him. I bet if he ran an aftercooler with his same head unit and pulley
size he would see an additional 20 to 30 horse at the wheels.........
Trent....
In an air-to-air intercooler system, the charge air at the supercharger
inlet is ducted from a heat exchanger assembly, cooled, and then continues thru the supercharger on to the engine inlet. The heat exchanger assembly must be placed where the outside cooling air passes through it. The cooling efficiency is dictated by the heat exchanger design and size, and the flow and temperature of the air passing through it. You also need to take into consideration the boost loss, packaging within the vehicle, interaction with other cooling systems, and convection heating of the system. Air-to-air systems have little significant thermal transition. This means that the relatively low mass of the heat exchanger system heats
and cools almost instantly and the system relies on its effectiveness
for any benefits.In an air-to-water aftercooler system, the charge air at the supercharger discharge is ducted to a heat exchanger assembly, cooled, and then continues to the engine inlet very much like the air-to-air. However, the air-to-water heat exchanger assembly does not need direct exposure to outside cooling air, and it can be much smaller. Because of this, the heat exchanger can be placed right in the existing path between the supercharger discharge and the engine inlet. With no additional ducting or tubes with bends, and a more effective and compact air-to-water heat exchanger, there are much lower frictional losses. Air-to-water aftercooler system employs a second heat exchanger or "radiator" to
remove the heat from the system. The second heat exchanger sits in the cooling air, right ahead of the engine’s radiator. The heat exchange actually occurs air-to-water-to-air, but this is still called an air-to-water system. In this system, water is routed from a storage reservoir to the "radiator", where it is cooled, up through the heat exchanger assembly, then back to the reservoir. This cooling loop is completely separate from the engine cooling system and continuously cools the water.
Clint,
This means that your air to air system on a hot summer day sucks.
Its there for looks unless you are running at least 90 mph to cool the
intercooler with 100 degree ambient air. I found this article from a world war 2 airplane mechanic talking about how all their p51 mustangs ran centrifical supercharger with aftercoolers. I couldnt believe that!! You would think air to air intercooler in a plane
but the mechanic claimed thats why they were all designed with
aftercoolers more efficient less boost loss, and a more consistent
dense air charge......ya baby Vortech baby ya.....That means that big
intercooler Brian 2k2CamaroSS has looks better then it really helps him. I bet if he ran an aftercooler with his same head unit and pulley
size he would see an additional 20 to 30 horse at the wheels.........
Trent....
02-28-2006, 01:55 PM
#2
My Answer To Trent AKA Blacknight Trent my young Padawon...
I do agree that a Air to Water Aftercooler is better at cooling down
the charge of Supercharged/Turbocharged air going into an engine.. I have never doubted that.. However your little Vortech system does "not" do a good enough job to cool down the air effectively at WOT and or at high engine RPMS.. The air is moving into the intake too rapidly to cool down, and the Vortech aftercooler that sits on-top of a hot motor does not have enough time to cool down the air charge enough to make a difference. Which is way many people use ICE or run a Air to Air Intercooler setup for racing applications.. Also, some people have seen intake temps with the LS1 Vortech setups at the track 60 to 70 deg above ambient air temps at the end of the track.
Here's the meaning.. Air to Water is better, but ATI's setup, even
with their flaws is better at putting down the power in our applications.
Here are some of ATI's Flaws I feel..
Flaw 1 = a horizontal twin intercooler setup, does not get much air
Flaw 2 = 10 cubic feet of piping that causes you to spin the blower
faster to offset the loss of boost,
Flaw 3 = Faster spinning blower causes hotter intake temps.
Flaw 4 = Original Belt Tension setup from ATI is Micky Mouse,
without the SDCE Pulley setup or something like mine,
though mine the one I fabricated up is MUCH better but
still not perfect.
Possible Flaw = Ati having their own oiling setup, causing
some weeping.
Vortech Flaws...
Flaw 1 = More expensive, with a programmer that is out of date.
Flaw 2 = Intake Temp Sensor not reading the real air going into the
motor, causing Vortech to be more conservative in their
tune.
Flaw 3 = The Aftercooler is too small to cool down the air
effectively at high rpms.
Flaw 4 = With the added heat and the IAT sensor not reading
the "real" temp of the incoming air, engine knock could
happen causing loss of power and KR.
Flaw 5 = The LS1 Vortech G-Trim Head Units are too small, causing
people purposely to over Spin the blower to achieve
needed RWHP.
Flaw 6 = The Head unit and aftercooler sits on-top of the motor
causing problems like,
* added heat soak
* Car seems top heavy causing possible problems in hard
cornering or autocross or road course events.
* To work on anything in the engine bay, the supercharger
needs to be removed.
* The Camaro SS Hood needs to be cut to fit the
Vortech LS1 Blower.
Flaw 7 = If Head unit ever fails, which we have seen at 1st hand,
you and Scott, the Aftercooler does not provide enough
protection against metal fragments entering the motor,
ATI with all their piping and twin intercoolers do provide
protection, which we have also seen at 1st hand with
Marco's 396 LT1 motor..
Possible Flaw = Vortech Head unit sharing the same oil as the
engine, making it easier to change the oil for the
blower, but also could cause engine damage if the
head unit took a crap.
So Trent my Friend.. Yes I agree that Air to Water is more effective
at cooling down air or anything for that matter, in a "worldly
application" than air to air is.. For instance if I jump in a 40 Deg
Lake with no clothes on, I will freeze my *** off and could die within
just a few minutes. And on the other note if walk outside in 40deg
weather surrounded by 40 deg air, my life will not be threatened, and I could survive for who knows how long. The point, Water cools down better than Air, but on your Vortech setup while it seems it would work better than a air to air intercooler, it just does not, unless you place the aftercooler in a different spot, not on top of a hot engine, also if you increase the size of the aftercooler, and or if you run ice at all times, then it would be better at all times than a air to air intercooler.
Also remember, the air going into the engine on a Aftercooled Turbo
or Supercharger setup is not in direct contact with the air. Meaning
the water is not hitting the incoming air, the water is cooling down
the metal inside the aftercooler that cools down the air.
Now... Your thoughts my friend..
I do agree that a Air to Water Aftercooler is better at cooling down
the charge of Supercharged/Turbocharged air going into an engine.. I have never doubted that.. However your little Vortech system does "not" do a good enough job to cool down the air effectively at WOT and or at high engine RPMS.. The air is moving into the intake too rapidly to cool down, and the Vortech aftercooler that sits on-top of a hot motor does not have enough time to cool down the air charge enough to make a difference. Which is way many people use ICE or run a Air to Air Intercooler setup for racing applications.. Also, some people have seen intake temps with the LS1 Vortech setups at the track 60 to 70 deg above ambient air temps at the end of the track.
Here's the meaning.. Air to Water is better, but ATI's setup, even
with their flaws is better at putting down the power in our applications.
Here are some of ATI's Flaws I feel..
Flaw 1 = a horizontal twin intercooler setup, does not get much air
Flaw 2 = 10 cubic feet of piping that causes you to spin the blower
faster to offset the loss of boost,
Flaw 3 = Faster spinning blower causes hotter intake temps.
Flaw 4 = Original Belt Tension setup from ATI is Micky Mouse,
without the SDCE Pulley setup or something like mine,
though mine the one I fabricated up is MUCH better but
still not perfect.
Possible Flaw = Ati having their own oiling setup, causing
some weeping.
Vortech Flaws...
Flaw 1 = More expensive, with a programmer that is out of date.
Flaw 2 = Intake Temp Sensor not reading the real air going into the
motor, causing Vortech to be more conservative in their
tune.
Flaw 3 = The Aftercooler is too small to cool down the air
effectively at high rpms.
Flaw 4 = With the added heat and the IAT sensor not reading
the "real" temp of the incoming air, engine knock could
happen causing loss of power and KR.
Flaw 5 = The LS1 Vortech G-Trim Head Units are too small, causing
people purposely to over Spin the blower to achieve
needed RWHP.
Flaw 6 = The Head unit and aftercooler sits on-top of the motor
causing problems like,
* added heat soak
* Car seems top heavy causing possible problems in hard
cornering or autocross or road course events.
* To work on anything in the engine bay, the supercharger
needs to be removed.
* The Camaro SS Hood needs to be cut to fit the
Vortech LS1 Blower.
Flaw 7 = If Head unit ever fails, which we have seen at 1st hand,
you and Scott, the Aftercooler does not provide enough
protection against metal fragments entering the motor,
ATI with all their piping and twin intercoolers do provide
protection, which we have also seen at 1st hand with
Marco's 396 LT1 motor..
Possible Flaw = Vortech Head unit sharing the same oil as the
engine, making it easier to change the oil for the
blower, but also could cause engine damage if the
head unit took a crap.
So Trent my Friend.. Yes I agree that Air to Water is more effective
at cooling down air or anything for that matter, in a "worldly
application" than air to air is.. For instance if I jump in a 40 Deg
Lake with no clothes on, I will freeze my *** off and could die within
just a few minutes. And on the other note if walk outside in 40deg
weather surrounded by 40 deg air, my life will not be threatened, and I could survive for who knows how long. The point, Water cools down better than Air, but on your Vortech setup while it seems it would work better than a air to air intercooler, it just does not, unless you place the aftercooler in a different spot, not on top of a hot engine, also if you increase the size of the aftercooler, and or if you run ice at all times, then it would be better at all times than a air to air intercooler.
Also remember, the air going into the engine on a Aftercooled Turbo
or Supercharger setup is not in direct contact with the air. Meaning
the water is not hitting the incoming air, the water is cooling down
the metal inside the aftercooler that cools down the air.
Now... Your thoughts my friend..
Last edited by HUGGER ORANGE SS; 02-28-2006 at 02:02 PM.
02-28-2006, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HUGGER ORANGE SS
In an air-to-air intercooler system, the charge air at the supercharger
inlet is ducted from a heat exchanger assembly, cooled, and then continues thru the supercharger on to the engine inlet.
inlet is ducted from a heat exchanger assembly, cooled, and then continues thru the supercharger on to the engine inlet.
This is not a correct description of air-air intercoolers. Perhaps he is confused about the exact configuration.
I agree air-water can work better for limited runs if Ice is used. Otherwise the water's heat exchanger is limited by the same ambient temperature.
One system may have to be much larger to match the efficiency of the other and maintain consistency.
Last edited by white2001s10; 02-28-2006 at 02:45 PM.
02-28-2006, 02:29 PM
#5
I know the statements above were not strictly only Air/Water VS Air/Air Cooling, it became a Vortech VS ATI setups as well..
PSJ.. We run Slow up here.. Last time I was at the track was years ago, I had a stock motor and 7psi of boost.. I ran a 12.54 at 117MPH with a 2.0 60' at 7000DA altitude 275/40 17's Nitto DR Tires..
I did run one time with my 600RWHP car 11psi of boost. But the tranny was very screwed up.. I ran a 13.2 at 121MPH with a 2.1 60' 7500 DA.. MPH was higher cause I had more power, but I just could not shift into any gear after 1st..
He ran a best of 12.2 or 12.4 at 117MPH with a 1.8 60' on Hoosier Pro ET's, with a Stock motor and 10psi of boost same DA..
Clint
PSJ.. We run Slow up here.. Last time I was at the track was years ago, I had a stock motor and 7psi of boost.. I ran a 12.54 at 117MPH with a 2.0 60' at 7000DA altitude 275/40 17's Nitto DR Tires..
I did run one time with my 600RWHP car 11psi of boost. But the tranny was very screwed up.. I ran a 13.2 at 121MPH with a 2.1 60' 7500 DA.. MPH was higher cause I had more power, but I just could not shift into any gear after 1st..
He ran a best of 12.2 or 12.4 at 117MPH with a 1.8 60' on Hoosier Pro ET's, with a Stock motor and 10psi of boost same DA..
Clint
Last edited by HUGGER ORANGE SS; 02-28-2006 at 02:40 PM.
02-28-2006, 02:29 PM
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i had a vortech aftercooler on my mustang...it=nothing but problems...
that being said i would rather have a water-air...but not for the car i am building now...
air-air will be less problems for me personally...will still offer cooling characterstics...and i will prob use methanol anyways.
that being said i would rather have a water-air...but not for the car i am building now...
air-air will be less problems for me personally...will still offer cooling characterstics...and i will prob use methanol anyways.
02-28-2006, 02:34 PM
#7
Originally Posted by white2001s10
This is not a correct description of air-air intercoolers. Perhaps he is confused about the exact configuration.
I agree air-water can work better for limited runs if Ice is used. Otherwise the water's heat exchanger is limited by the same ambient temperature.
One system may have to be much larger to match the efficiency of the other and maintain consistency.
I agree air-water can work better for limited runs if Ice is used. Otherwise the water's heat exchanger is limited by the same ambient temperature.
One system may have to be much larger to match the efficiency of the other and maintain consistency.
Clint
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02-28-2006, 02:57 PM
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You know what the "best" intercooler is? The "right" one for YOUR car. Period. Vortech's air/water is find for some cars, but too small or problematic for others, same with ATI's dinky twin air/air intercoolers. Unless the air/air is much larger or the a/w is horribly designed/built...air/water is probably going to cool the air better. Its physics. The assumption is, of course, that both coolers are right for the set up. A small air/water or one w/o a heat-exchanger is probably not going to work well, especially on a street car. Meanwhile, a similar situation can be had with an air/air.
I'll apologize ahead of time and tell you right now I didnt read this whole thread so I may be mid-reading your post(s). But I'm at work and really not in the mood to read that big *** post about a discussion that is stupid. Water cools better than air. Sorry.
I'll apologize ahead of time and tell you right now I didnt read this whole thread so I may be mid-reading your post(s). But I'm at work and really not in the mood to read that big *** post about a discussion that is stupid. Water cools better than air. Sorry.
02-28-2006, 03:00 PM
#9
LS1Tech Co-Founder
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There are a few generalizations in this thread. I would not call the Vortech aftercooler or the twin ATI intercoolers optimal for 550+ rwhp combos.
What were your IAT's? I was at like 150F on my 144mph passes with my Griffin A/A FMIC. Next time out I'm shooting for 125F.
What were your IAT's? I was at like 150F on my 144mph passes with my Griffin A/A FMIC. Next time out I'm shooting for 125F.
02-28-2006, 03:12 PM
#11
Originally Posted by RyanJ
I'm at work and really not in the mood to read that big *** post about a discussion that is stupid. Water cools better than air. Sorry.
Clint
02-28-2006, 03:21 PM
#12
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
There are a few generalizations in this thread. I would not call the Vortech aftercooler or the twin ATI intercoolers optimal for 550+ rwhp combos.
What were your IAT's? I was at like 150F on my 144mph passes with my Griffin A/A FMIC. Next time out I'm shooting for 125F.
What were your IAT's? I was at like 150F on my 144mph passes with my Griffin A/A FMIC. Next time out I'm shooting for 125F.
PSJ I don't have any records as to my IAT on the track. I do have dome Dyno results.. On a Setup close to mine, we did record the ATI Twin intercoolers for a D1SC with 9psi of boost.. The intercoolers did not see any extra air as they were just sitting there on the bottom of the car.. The ambent air was about 98deg F.. The IAT's went from 106Deg to 142Deg after the short pull in 4th gear and netted the car with 540RWHP at 9psi with the stock motor..
Another car with a big FMIC and 9psi of boost at the same time and Day went from 102 Deg F IAT to 118 Deg F IAT after the 4th gear pull, netted him 624RWHP on a Cam and Heads motor with a D1SC Blower.
I have not seen a test on a Vortechs Aftercooler setup, as the car in question had the IAT sensor in the Stock Vortech position, before the blower..
Clint
02-28-2006, 07:13 PM
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How you drive and where you drive are very important in which intercooler system is best for you.
First the basics and obvious and maybe some not so.
Air-Air - no moving parts, lighter weight (sometimes), low thermal "inertia" heats up quickly, cools off quickly, airflow and speed dependant, no maintenence, fairly efficient, relatively inexpensive, easily upgradeable.
Air-Water - more potential for temperature drop, moving parts and fluid, entire sytem can be heavier than air-air, higher thermal "inertia" takes longer to heat up and cool off lowering duty cycle of system, potential for coolant leakage into intake system, more components to purchase and install can substantially raise cost of system, between round maintenence, only real I/C choice for 1/8" mile or less drag racing, excellent choice for marine application, I/C core mounting can be challenging, large volume cores tend to be very expensive.
Water or liquid is a superior heat transfer medium. Period. Nobody argues that point. 4 times better than air, which is a good insulator. Liquid however is not always the best intercooling choice for your car.
Air-Water intercooling can be better for "one hit" dyno pulls or racing where the cooling medium is given a chance to reject the heat put into it by the intake charge. If this is you then a properly sized air-water system is probably a good choice and can have some performance benifits. Pro style drag racing uses it with great success. Bonneville however might not be a great place where there is a long duration load placing heat into the system.
Air-Air having lower thermal "inertia" tranfers heat quickly and cools off just as soon as the load is removed. There is no cooling medium to remove heat from past the intercooler core. This allows for frequent use of boost without loss of effectiveness. Being totally dependant on airflow can however lower dyno numbers and requires some forethought in airflow management during installation. When the vehicle is in high gear and most susceptible to tuning issues the air-air system is working at its best. The lack of moving parts and support systems enhance overall reliability of the system and peace of mind.
Regardless of the system owned or desired there are always places to look for improvements.
Air-Air - tubing fitment and routing, providing good airflow across the intercooler. The heated air must exit into a low pressure area of the car. Improving airflow through your core(s) will provide performance benifits. Inlet ducting can help.
Air-Water - tubing fitment and routing, cooling of the heated medium, flow rate control of the cooling medium, proper core sizing, cooling medium choice - glycol, alchohol, water, florinert
While Ford uses air-water on their Lightning and Cobra systems keep in mind these vehicles aren't designed to be pushed beyond their factory design limits as they come. The I/C cores are modest in size and effective up to around 600-700 hp when replaced with a centrifugal. The use of a air-water system limits the street raceability of these vehicles at a high boost level and the engines are designed for forced induction. Today most blower kits are being installed on engines with 10:1 compression or better.
I hope something here was useful.
First the basics and obvious and maybe some not so.
Air-Air - no moving parts, lighter weight (sometimes), low thermal "inertia" heats up quickly, cools off quickly, airflow and speed dependant, no maintenence, fairly efficient, relatively inexpensive, easily upgradeable.
Air-Water - more potential for temperature drop, moving parts and fluid, entire sytem can be heavier than air-air, higher thermal "inertia" takes longer to heat up and cool off lowering duty cycle of system, potential for coolant leakage into intake system, more components to purchase and install can substantially raise cost of system, between round maintenence, only real I/C choice for 1/8" mile or less drag racing, excellent choice for marine application, I/C core mounting can be challenging, large volume cores tend to be very expensive.
Water or liquid is a superior heat transfer medium. Period. Nobody argues that point. 4 times better than air, which is a good insulator. Liquid however is not always the best intercooling choice for your car.
Air-Water intercooling can be better for "one hit" dyno pulls or racing where the cooling medium is given a chance to reject the heat put into it by the intake charge. If this is you then a properly sized air-water system is probably a good choice and can have some performance benifits. Pro style drag racing uses it with great success. Bonneville however might not be a great place where there is a long duration load placing heat into the system.
Air-Air having lower thermal "inertia" tranfers heat quickly and cools off just as soon as the load is removed. There is no cooling medium to remove heat from past the intercooler core. This allows for frequent use of boost without loss of effectiveness. Being totally dependant on airflow can however lower dyno numbers and requires some forethought in airflow management during installation. When the vehicle is in high gear and most susceptible to tuning issues the air-air system is working at its best. The lack of moving parts and support systems enhance overall reliability of the system and peace of mind.
Regardless of the system owned or desired there are always places to look for improvements.
Air-Air - tubing fitment and routing, providing good airflow across the intercooler. The heated air must exit into a low pressure area of the car. Improving airflow through your core(s) will provide performance benifits. Inlet ducting can help.
Air-Water - tubing fitment and routing, cooling of the heated medium, flow rate control of the cooling medium, proper core sizing, cooling medium choice - glycol, alchohol, water, florinert
While Ford uses air-water on their Lightning and Cobra systems keep in mind these vehicles aren't designed to be pushed beyond their factory design limits as they come. The I/C cores are modest in size and effective up to around 600-700 hp when replaced with a centrifugal. The use of a air-water system limits the street raceability of these vehicles at a high boost level and the engines are designed for forced induction. Today most blower kits are being installed on engines with 10:1 compression or better.
I hope something here was useful.
02-28-2006, 07:32 PM
#16
10 Second Club
Originally Posted by HUGGER ORANGE SS
I wish there was a test.
Vortech IAT VS ATI Procharger at compareable boost and test levels..
Clint
03-01-2006, 12:08 AM
#17
Great posts... andereck & 2001WS6Vert...
So there's some real proof 2001WS6.. You stated in your aplication, your IAT went down 40 deg when going to a FMIC from a Iced Down Aftercooler on your Vortech..
I do agree that with both systems, they do not do a great enough job. That's why I'm running Meth/H2o as well to help..
Clint
So there's some real proof 2001WS6.. You stated in your aplication, your IAT went down 40 deg when going to a FMIC from a Iced Down Aftercooler on your Vortech..
I do agree that with both systems, they do not do a great enough job. That's why I'm running Meth/H2o as well to help..
Clint
03-01-2006, 01:33 AM
#18
Great info. Was pretty good to read. I learned something here.
As for the P51 system, think about it. The Heat-Exchanger is placed in the Airstream and at the least it's seeing about 125 knot's of airflow across it. Also, the A-W system can be better to use for the Plane due to space constraints. I'm not 100% convinced the whole reason was just that A-W was better.
Could be that the A-A would have iced up or had too much of an issue with blockage that would have been a BDA adressed issue. (Battle Damage Assesment).
Let's keep this one going if we can. I like learning something new.
As for the P51 system, think about it. The Heat-Exchanger is placed in the Airstream and at the least it's seeing about 125 knot's of airflow across it. Also, the A-W system can be better to use for the Plane due to space constraints. I'm not 100% convinced the whole reason was just that A-W was better.
Could be that the A-A would have iced up or had too much of an issue with blockage that would have been a BDA adressed issue. (Battle Damage Assesment).
Let's keep this one going if we can. I like learning something new.
03-01-2006, 09:34 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by HUGGER ORANGE SS
Originally Posted by HUGGER ORANGE SS
In an air-to-air intercooler system, the charge air at the supercharger
inlet is ducted from a heat exchanger assembly, cooled, and then continues thru the supercharger on to the engine inlet.
In an air-to-air intercooler system, the charge air at the supercharger
inlet is ducted from a heat exchanger assembly, cooled, and then continues thru the supercharger on to the engine inlet.
I'm I the only one that didn't read right over this error?
03-01-2006, 11:06 AM
#20
Here is my experience with a bunch of different systems.
My TTi race kit, air-water - on the dyno I can make several back to back pulls and the intake air temp rises a whopping 4 degrees then cools right back down around ambient. I don't use Ice in the tank. At the track and on the street it's basically the same story. Make a long pull down the freeway or on the drag strip and it rises about 6 degrees at the most then drops right back down near ambient. Heat soak so far hasn't been much of a factor and the highest it's ever been over ambient after many many pulls and just sitting has been about 15 degrees. Then again I am not really pushing this thing yet only running 10 psi and the system is designed well with a large enough water tank, large IC, etc.
Maggie blower, air-water - Heat soak is your worst enemy. Very inefficient with temps soaring 70 deg over ambient and it takes FOREVER to recover. Same story whether you are making dyno pulls or on the street.
ATI procharger, twin air-air - During pulls with a big fan in front of the ICs or on the street the air heats up fairly quickly when you are on it but then drops right back down 10 deg over ambient afterwards. Have seen it warm up as much as 30-40 deg over a pull.
Inconn TT, twin air-air - During pulls with a big fan in front of the ICs or on the street air heats up pretty quickly when you are on it but then drops right back down 10 deg over ambient afterwards. On the last setup it rose 30 degrees on just a quick dyno pull with a big fan in front of it. But this setup is pushing the design limits of the kit.
I suppose this stuff doesn't really help the ATI vs Vortech arguement. I guess it does show that air-water can work well and it also can't work worth a ****, depending on how it's configured. If you have a large water tank, A-W intercooler, large radiator, and everything setup properly it can work very well, and suprisingly heat soak is almost negligable. That's the part I was worried about with the TTi race kit when I decided on that one was the heat soak issue but it really hasn't been one. Air-air seems to have the highest air temp increase over a pull but since there isn't water to heat up it's tendency to heat soak is less, especially over a poorly designed air-water setup like the Magnusson blower.
My TTi race kit, air-water - on the dyno I can make several back to back pulls and the intake air temp rises a whopping 4 degrees then cools right back down around ambient. I don't use Ice in the tank. At the track and on the street it's basically the same story. Make a long pull down the freeway or on the drag strip and it rises about 6 degrees at the most then drops right back down near ambient. Heat soak so far hasn't been much of a factor and the highest it's ever been over ambient after many many pulls and just sitting has been about 15 degrees. Then again I am not really pushing this thing yet only running 10 psi and the system is designed well with a large enough water tank, large IC, etc.
Maggie blower, air-water - Heat soak is your worst enemy. Very inefficient with temps soaring 70 deg over ambient and it takes FOREVER to recover. Same story whether you are making dyno pulls or on the street.
ATI procharger, twin air-air - During pulls with a big fan in front of the ICs or on the street the air heats up fairly quickly when you are on it but then drops right back down 10 deg over ambient afterwards. Have seen it warm up as much as 30-40 deg over a pull.
Inconn TT, twin air-air - During pulls with a big fan in front of the ICs or on the street air heats up pretty quickly when you are on it but then drops right back down 10 deg over ambient afterwards. On the last setup it rose 30 degrees on just a quick dyno pull with a big fan in front of it. But this setup is pushing the design limits of the kit.
I suppose this stuff doesn't really help the ATI vs Vortech arguement. I guess it does show that air-water can work well and it also can't work worth a ****, depending on how it's configured. If you have a large water tank, A-W intercooler, large radiator, and everything setup properly it can work very well, and suprisingly heat soak is almost negligable. That's the part I was worried about with the TTi race kit when I decided on that one was the heat soak issue but it really hasn't been one. Air-air seems to have the highest air temp increase over a pull but since there isn't water to heat up it's tendency to heat soak is less, especially over a poorly designed air-water setup like the Magnusson blower.
Last edited by NicD; 03-01-2006 at 11:31 AM.