Looking for guys who make 900+rwhp with turbo: block opinions
11-22-2006, 03:36 PM
#42
The Hardcore Racing guys are / were (haven't heard about it in a while) running a C5R block with a girdle in their black car. It was powered by an F2R procharger so they were definetly pushing over 1000 hp. I don't know a lot about the details except that a lot of work was done to the block and heads.
11-22-2006, 08:36 PM
#44
Blocks Keith, I have a bit of time so I thought I would add my two cents worth to this thread.
As most of you know, I do sleeving on the LS blocks but you may not know that I do many other makes of blocks as well. These include most of the Honda line, Nissan four and V6, Subaru, Ford, Viper, Porshe, Ferrari and then some. The vast majority of blocks I work on are aluminum. I have put MID sleeves in the LQ9 and recently in the 6.1 Dodge Hemi iron block.
The four cylinder Honda B18 series with MID sleeves makes right around a thousand horsepower in drag race trim, turbo, methanol, nitrous. Last engine I helped a buddy with was a B16 or 1600 cc that made 750 hp to the wheels on turbo and methanol. Most use the stock two bolt main caps and stock factory bolts on the bottom end! That bottom end is a lot weaker than what we have to work with on the aluminum LS blocks.
The Nissan VQ35 engine out of the 350Z sports car with MID sleeves has put out over 2,000 hp on methanol. These things are running 65 pounds of boost through the lights. Mid to low six second quarters.
Lingenfelter's four cylinder 2 liter Ecotec was making 1,450 horsepower with around 45 pounds of boost on methanol. Again with MID sleeves.
Subaru EJ25 four banger (2.5 liter), twelve hundred horsepower, turbo and methanol with Darton dry liners.
I have several Viper blocks with my own design wet sleeves on the street making close to a thousand to the rear wheels. Four widely spaced head bolts per cylinder, two vertical main bolts with two side bolts per cap. The LS1 block looks like a stronger piece to me.
If the LS block (I much prefer the LS1 block for MID sleeve installations for max effort engines) is properly built and tuned, I see absolutely no reason why it won't hold up to a thousand plus horsepower.
That said, properly built would include:
Main caps doweled to the block ala LS7 block with hollow dowels and ARP studs. I have tooling to do the doweling by the way. Steel caps would be preferable but the stock cap will hold up if you keep the engine out of detonation. The caps will walk on the block if not doweled.
The import blocks all have doweled main caps from the factory by the way. All the ones I mentioned above have four head bolts per cylinder, same as the LS blocks.
LS1 block using Darton MID sleeves. LS2 block would be my second choice. MID sleeves for the LS2 and LS7 are in R&D at the moment.
L19 ARP head studs. They are stronger than half inch studs. In most cases, drilling and tapping to half inch will weaken the block so I avoid doing this.
Cometic now has what they refer to as Phusion gaskets. These use a gas filled Garloc sealing ring around the bores. They will seal even if the head lifts under detonation.
Tuning:
Use common sense when it comes to compression ratio vs. boost especially if you are planning on running pump gas. I don't care if the engine is iron or aluminum. If it detonates, it won't last long.
The import guys are pretty savy tuners. That's how they are getting the big numbers and getting the engines to stay together with blocks that are weaker than the LS.
I do a lot of Darton dry sleeved LS2 and LS7 blocks as well. Although not as strong as an LS1 with MID sleeves, these have proven to hold well over 900 hp with no problems. Many with twin turbos in sand buggies. Again, you have to use the correct parts and tune up.
If we are talking strictly stock block, then I would agree the iron block is stronger. But you are limited on bore size and of course you have the extra weight to deal with.
Another member posted photos of aluminum blocks with deck cracks. That is a function of weak stock sleeves in an aluminum block. The Darton dry sleeves are much stronger than the stock cast in sleeves and will prevent this sort of crack in the aluminum.
I looked at the new GM LSX block at Sema. I like it and would recommend it for a two thousand horsepower build. Unlike the production iron blocks, it has solid main webs, doweled steel caps, and better oiling. Weight is a problem however. It is at least a hundred pounds heavier than the aluminum blocks.
Steve
As most of you know, I do sleeving on the LS blocks but you may not know that I do many other makes of blocks as well. These include most of the Honda line, Nissan four and V6, Subaru, Ford, Viper, Porshe, Ferrari and then some. The vast majority of blocks I work on are aluminum. I have put MID sleeves in the LQ9 and recently in the 6.1 Dodge Hemi iron block.
The four cylinder Honda B18 series with MID sleeves makes right around a thousand horsepower in drag race trim, turbo, methanol, nitrous. Last engine I helped a buddy with was a B16 or 1600 cc that made 750 hp to the wheels on turbo and methanol. Most use the stock two bolt main caps and stock factory bolts on the bottom end! That bottom end is a lot weaker than what we have to work with on the aluminum LS blocks.
The Nissan VQ35 engine out of the 350Z sports car with MID sleeves has put out over 2,000 hp on methanol. These things are running 65 pounds of boost through the lights. Mid to low six second quarters.
Lingenfelter's four cylinder 2 liter Ecotec was making 1,450 horsepower with around 45 pounds of boost on methanol. Again with MID sleeves.
Subaru EJ25 four banger (2.5 liter), twelve hundred horsepower, turbo and methanol with Darton dry liners.
I have several Viper blocks with my own design wet sleeves on the street making close to a thousand to the rear wheels. Four widely spaced head bolts per cylinder, two vertical main bolts with two side bolts per cap. The LS1 block looks like a stronger piece to me.
If the LS block (I much prefer the LS1 block for MID sleeve installations for max effort engines) is properly built and tuned, I see absolutely no reason why it won't hold up to a thousand plus horsepower.
That said, properly built would include:
Main caps doweled to the block ala LS7 block with hollow dowels and ARP studs. I have tooling to do the doweling by the way. Steel caps would be preferable but the stock cap will hold up if you keep the engine out of detonation. The caps will walk on the block if not doweled.
The import blocks all have doweled main caps from the factory by the way. All the ones I mentioned above have four head bolts per cylinder, same as the LS blocks.
LS1 block using Darton MID sleeves. LS2 block would be my second choice. MID sleeves for the LS2 and LS7 are in R&D at the moment.
L19 ARP head studs. They are stronger than half inch studs. In most cases, drilling and tapping to half inch will weaken the block so I avoid doing this.
Cometic now has what they refer to as Phusion gaskets. These use a gas filled Garloc sealing ring around the bores. They will seal even if the head lifts under detonation.
Tuning:
Use common sense when it comes to compression ratio vs. boost especially if you are planning on running pump gas. I don't care if the engine is iron or aluminum. If it detonates, it won't last long.
The import guys are pretty savy tuners. That's how they are getting the big numbers and getting the engines to stay together with blocks that are weaker than the LS.
I do a lot of Darton dry sleeved LS2 and LS7 blocks as well. Although not as strong as an LS1 with MID sleeves, these have proven to hold well over 900 hp with no problems. Many with twin turbos in sand buggies. Again, you have to use the correct parts and tune up.
If we are talking strictly stock block, then I would agree the iron block is stronger. But you are limited on bore size and of course you have the extra weight to deal with.
Another member posted photos of aluminum blocks with deck cracks. That is a function of weak stock sleeves in an aluminum block. The Darton dry sleeves are much stronger than the stock cast in sleeves and will prevent this sort of crack in the aluminum.
I looked at the new GM LSX block at Sema. I like it and would recommend it for a two thousand horsepower build. Unlike the production iron blocks, it has solid main webs, doweled steel caps, and better oiling. Weight is a problem however. It is at least a hundred pounds heavier than the aluminum blocks.
Steve
Originally Posted by KHShapiro
i have an MID block but you can also get a dry sleeve ls2 block, and while some builders dont like to use them non have given me any examples of any (RED) comming apart. the most is a little pushing which from my understanding on 99% of them that had that problem it was fixed with a little copper coating and retq of the heads, not to mention higher hp fi engines do that a little.
Talk to Steve at RED his blocks are hold tons of HP and TQ and oh yeah he is a sponsor so maybe he will chime in, if he sees the thread.
Talk to Steve at RED his blocks are hold tons of HP and TQ and oh yeah he is a sponsor so maybe he will chime in, if he sees the thread.
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
11-22-2006, 09:05 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by Steve - Race Eng
Keith, I have a bit of time so I thought I would add my two cents worth to this thread.
As most of you know, I do sleeving on the LS blocks but you may not know that I do many other makes of blocks as well. These include most of the Honda line, Nissan four and V6, Subaru, Ford, Viper, Porshe, Ferrari and then some. The vast majority of blocks I work on are aluminum. I have put MID sleeves in the LQ9 and recently in the 6.1 Dodge Hemi iron block.
The four cylinder Honda B18 series with MID sleeves makes right around a thousand horsepower in drag race trim, turbo, methanol, nitrous. Last engine I helped a buddy with was a B16 or 1600 cc that made 750 hp to the wheels on turbo and methanol. Most use the stock two bolt main caps and stock factory bolts on the bottom end! That bottom end is a lot weaker than what we have to work with on the aluminum LS blocks.
The Nissan VQ35 engine out of the 350Z sports car with MID sleeves has put out over 2,000 hp on methanol. These things are running 65 pounds of boost through the lights. Mid to low six second quarters.
Lingenfelter's four cylinder 2 liter Ecotec was making 1,450 horsepower with around 45 pounds of boost on methanol. Again with MID sleeves.
Subaru EJ25 four banger (2.5 liter), twelve hundred horsepower, turbo and methanol with Darton dry liners.
I have several Viper blocks with my own design wet sleeves on the street making close to a thousand to the rear wheels. Four widely spaced head bolts per cylinder, two vertical main bolts with two side bolts per cap. The LS1 block looks like a stronger piece to me.
If the LS block (I much prefer the LS1 block for MID sleeve installations for max effort engines) is properly built and tuned, I see absolutely no reason why it won't hold up to a thousand plus horsepower.
That said, properly built would include:
Main caps doweled to the block ala LS7 block with hollow dowels and ARP studs. I have tooling to do the doweling by the way. Steel caps would be preferable but the stock cap will hold up if you keep the engine out of detonation. The caps will walk on the block if not doweled.
The import blocks all have doweled main caps from the factory by the way. All the ones I mentioned above have four head bolts per cylinder, same as the LS blocks.
LS1 block using Darton MID sleeves. LS2 block would be my second choice. MID sleeves for the LS2 and LS7 are in R&D at the moment.
L19 ARP head studs. They are stronger than half inch studs. In most cases, drilling and tapping to half inch will weaken the block so I avoid doing this.
Cometic now has what they refer to as Phusion gaskets. These use a gas filled Garloc sealing ring around the bores. They will seal even if the head lifts under detonation.
Tuning:
Use common sense when it comes to compression ratio vs. boost especially if you are planning on running pump gas. I don't care if the engine is iron or aluminum. If it detonates, it won't last long.
The import guys are pretty savy tuners. That's how they are getting the big numbers and getting the engines to stay together with blocks that are weaker than the LS.
I do a lot of Darton dry sleeved LS2 and LS7 blocks as well. Although not as strong as an LS1 with MID sleeves, these have proven to hold well over 900 hp with no problems. Many with twin turbos in sand buggies. Again, you have to use the correct parts and tune up.
If we are talking strictly stock block, then I would agree the iron block is stronger. But you are limited on bore size and of course you have the extra weight to deal with.
Another member posted photos of aluminum blocks with deck cracks. That is a function of weak stock sleeves in an aluminum block. The Darton dry sleeves are much stronger than the stock cast in sleeves and will prevent this sort of crack in the aluminum.
I looked at the new GM LSX block at Sema. I like it and would recommend it for a two thousand horsepower build. Unlike the production iron blocks, it has solid main webs, doweled steel caps, and better oiling. Weight is a problem however. It is at least a hundred pounds heavier than the aluminum blocks.
Steve
As most of you know, I do sleeving on the LS blocks but you may not know that I do many other makes of blocks as well. These include most of the Honda line, Nissan four and V6, Subaru, Ford, Viper, Porshe, Ferrari and then some. The vast majority of blocks I work on are aluminum. I have put MID sleeves in the LQ9 and recently in the 6.1 Dodge Hemi iron block.
The four cylinder Honda B18 series with MID sleeves makes right around a thousand horsepower in drag race trim, turbo, methanol, nitrous. Last engine I helped a buddy with was a B16 or 1600 cc that made 750 hp to the wheels on turbo and methanol. Most use the stock two bolt main caps and stock factory bolts on the bottom end! That bottom end is a lot weaker than what we have to work with on the aluminum LS blocks.
The Nissan VQ35 engine out of the 350Z sports car with MID sleeves has put out over 2,000 hp on methanol. These things are running 65 pounds of boost through the lights. Mid to low six second quarters.
Lingenfelter's four cylinder 2 liter Ecotec was making 1,450 horsepower with around 45 pounds of boost on methanol. Again with MID sleeves.
Subaru EJ25 four banger (2.5 liter), twelve hundred horsepower, turbo and methanol with Darton dry liners.
I have several Viper blocks with my own design wet sleeves on the street making close to a thousand to the rear wheels. Four widely spaced head bolts per cylinder, two vertical main bolts with two side bolts per cap. The LS1 block looks like a stronger piece to me.
If the LS block (I much prefer the LS1 block for MID sleeve installations for max effort engines) is properly built and tuned, I see absolutely no reason why it won't hold up to a thousand plus horsepower.
That said, properly built would include:
Main caps doweled to the block ala LS7 block with hollow dowels and ARP studs. I have tooling to do the doweling by the way. Steel caps would be preferable but the stock cap will hold up if you keep the engine out of detonation. The caps will walk on the block if not doweled.
The import blocks all have doweled main caps from the factory by the way. All the ones I mentioned above have four head bolts per cylinder, same as the LS blocks.
LS1 block using Darton MID sleeves. LS2 block would be my second choice. MID sleeves for the LS2 and LS7 are in R&D at the moment.
L19 ARP head studs. They are stronger than half inch studs. In most cases, drilling and tapping to half inch will weaken the block so I avoid doing this.
Cometic now has what they refer to as Phusion gaskets. These use a gas filled Garloc sealing ring around the bores. They will seal even if the head lifts under detonation.
Tuning:
Use common sense when it comes to compression ratio vs. boost especially if you are planning on running pump gas. I don't care if the engine is iron or aluminum. If it detonates, it won't last long.
The import guys are pretty savy tuners. That's how they are getting the big numbers and getting the engines to stay together with blocks that are weaker than the LS.
I do a lot of Darton dry sleeved LS2 and LS7 blocks as well. Although not as strong as an LS1 with MID sleeves, these have proven to hold well over 900 hp with no problems. Many with twin turbos in sand buggies. Again, you have to use the correct parts and tune up.
If we are talking strictly stock block, then I would agree the iron block is stronger. But you are limited on bore size and of course you have the extra weight to deal with.
Another member posted photos of aluminum blocks with deck cracks. That is a function of weak stock sleeves in an aluminum block. The Darton dry sleeves are much stronger than the stock cast in sleeves and will prevent this sort of crack in the aluminum.
I looked at the new GM LSX block at Sema. I like it and would recommend it for a two thousand horsepower build. Unlike the production iron blocks, it has solid main webs, doweled steel caps, and better oiling. Weight is a problem however. It is at least a hundred pounds heavier than the aluminum blocks.
Steve
11-22-2006, 10:26 PM
#46
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thanks Steve for voicing on this thread
i was really begining to question my set up and plans but you of all people know what the blocks can with stand. The only thing i am missing is the dowels.
Looks like i need to pull the crank dowel it and line hone.
Thanks again for the great peice of info from the forerunner of LS1 Sleeveing Tech.
i was really begining to question my set up and plans but you of all people know what the blocks can with stand. The only thing i am missing is the dowels.
Looks like i need to pull the crank dowel it and line hone.
Thanks again for the great peice of info from the forerunner of LS1 Sleeveing Tech.
11-23-2006, 10:11 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by Phil99vette
I wonder if this would help any...Very similar to the dowel pin
http://strokerkits.com/new_page_83.htm
http://strokerkits.com/new_page_83.htm
11-24-2006, 12:13 AM
#49
Keyed caps I think that would work just fine. They would eliminate the front to back positioning of the thrust cap during the doweling procedure since the cap would be free to move front to back on the key.
These folks have a patent pending on the cap design. If the patent covers the key slot you would not be able to do the procedure for sale.
These folks have a patent pending on the cap design. If the patent covers the key slot you would not be able to do the procedure for sale.
Originally Posted by Phil99vette
I wonder if this would help any...Very similar to the dowel pin
http://strokerkits.com/new_page_83.htm
http://strokerkits.com/new_page_83.htm
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
11-24-2006, 10:05 AM
#50
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i am using 1999-2000 iron LQ4 block with head/main studs and STOCK crank and have had detonation-related head sealing issues; once they were resolved no other issues 
would i put a stock crank in a big-hp motor again? it would have to depend on the overall budget of the entire motor. i've got under $500 in the block, crank and machine work (bore, hone, align hone, deck)
hope this helps!
PS the new Fel-Pro LS1 MLS gaskets look like they're going to kick ***. they've got a coppercoat-esque sticky coating they advise you not to touch or leave out in the open, rather simply put the gasket on the block DRY and put the head on immediately.
would i put a stock crank in a big-hp motor again? it would have to depend on the overall budget of the entire motor. i've got under $500 in the block, crank and machine work (bore, hone, align hone, deck)hope this helps!
PS the new Fel-Pro LS1 MLS gaskets look like they're going to kick ***. they've got a coppercoat-esque sticky coating they advise you not to touch or leave out in the open, rather simply put the gasket on the block DRY and put the head on immediately.
11-28-2006, 10:44 AM
#51
I agree with Steve that the potential should be there to make big power with the LS block. We also sleeve aluminum engines all day, every day and see these small bore inline and V6 blocks making huge HP. They do it with 4 bolt heads and the cylinder pressure produced to make that power on a small bore far excedes what a 1000 + HP an LS engine would see. That made us look to the difference between those and the LS blocks when designing the trussed block.
The V configuration produces increased torsional stresses that an inline block doesn't. These stresses want to twist or split the block if not contained.
The motor mounts and accessories on those blocks are mounted independent or lower on the block. Many have mounts at the end rather than the side. Where the motor mounts on the LS blocks want to pull out the drivers side wall of the block, deck, cylinders and compress the passenger side if stock mounts are used.
All the major automotive institutions recomend mounting any accessories to the block prior to machining as this will affect the bore and alignment. That verifies that the stresses and distortion pass through the deck and bore in a non-trussed block. The Trusses make the block itself strong without relying on the cylinders and deck for strength. They also provide substantially more seating area to maintain positive sleeve location.
The cracks shown are at the attaching point between the cylinder and block side wall where these stresses pass through. That is different from where the sleeve is overpressurized and cracks it and the surrounding aluminum can that we see when the stock sleeve cracks. Those are usually blown pretty well. Thumb up to the tuner for avoiding detonation on this block.
The issue with the 11mm L19 studs is that the engagement in the aluminum block remains the same even though the stud strength increases. The clamping ability is limited to the material it screws into. The 1/2" studs increase the engagement both in diameter and length and provide similar clamping force between the the 1/2" and 11mm L19. There are many using the 1/2" studs in the LS blocks without weakening it. Use care if using the the L19 since they are more sensitive and can't be exposed to moisture.
The dowelling of the mains is a necessity to stop cap movement as the aluminum registers can't be relied upon solely to locate the caps in high HP applications. As Steve said all the other blocks use dowels to locate the caps with fewer bolts than the LS. That is a nice reinforcement also in that the " legs" of the trusses extend to the floor just above the main journals. With a short pour the mains are stengthened and attached all the way to the head through the truss.
I contacted Mike and he is finished with the season, so we will get to inspect both soon. So they both have the same common factor as Reckless said in that he abused both very well.
The V configuration produces increased torsional stresses that an inline block doesn't. These stresses want to twist or split the block if not contained.
The motor mounts and accessories on those blocks are mounted independent or lower on the block. Many have mounts at the end rather than the side. Where the motor mounts on the LS blocks want to pull out the drivers side wall of the block, deck, cylinders and compress the passenger side if stock mounts are used.
All the major automotive institutions recomend mounting any accessories to the block prior to machining as this will affect the bore and alignment. That verifies that the stresses and distortion pass through the deck and bore in a non-trussed block. The Trusses make the block itself strong without relying on the cylinders and deck for strength. They also provide substantially more seating area to maintain positive sleeve location.
The cracks shown are at the attaching point between the cylinder and block side wall where these stresses pass through. That is different from where the sleeve is overpressurized and cracks it and the surrounding aluminum can that we see when the stock sleeve cracks. Those are usually blown pretty well. Thumb up to the tuner for avoiding detonation on this block.
The issue with the 11mm L19 studs is that the engagement in the aluminum block remains the same even though the stud strength increases. The clamping ability is limited to the material it screws into. The 1/2" studs increase the engagement both in diameter and length and provide similar clamping force between the the 1/2" and 11mm L19. There are many using the 1/2" studs in the LS blocks without weakening it. Use care if using the the L19 since they are more sensitive and can't be exposed to moisture.
The dowelling of the mains is a necessity to stop cap movement as the aluminum registers can't be relied upon solely to locate the caps in high HP applications. As Steve said all the other blocks use dowels to locate the caps with fewer bolts than the LS. That is a nice reinforcement also in that the " legs" of the trusses extend to the floor just above the main journals. With a short pour the mains are stengthened and attached all the way to the head through the truss.
I contacted Mike and he is finished with the season, so we will get to inspect both soon. So they both have the same common factor as Reckless said in that he abused both very well.
12-18-2006, 10:50 AM
#53
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Since someone refreshed this thread, I'd note that the original question was about making 900rwhp and that Mike Brown was making considerably more than that.
I'd go LS2 for 900rwhp in a car that gets raced once in a while. I'd go with an iron block above that, or the car is track only.
I'd go LS2 for 900rwhp in a car that gets raced once in a while. I'd go with an iron block above that, or the car is track only.
12-18-2006, 11:08 AM
#54
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I'd like to go with the LS2 for durability reasons but is it possible to put the 5.3l crank in the LS2 block? I would like to keep the displacement very close to stock for the Incons since 348ci has proven to be the upper limit of them. Also, I would gain some rpms out of the short stroke setup as well.
Anyone know what the displacement of that combo comes out to? And is the 5.3L crank as tough as the 5.7L LS1 crank?
*EDIT*-- Nevermind....I just found out that the 5.7L and 5.3L use the same cranks.
........ 
Anyone know what the displacement of that combo comes out to? And is the 5.3L crank as tough as the 5.7L LS1 crank?
*EDIT*-- Nevermind....I just found out that the 5.7L and 5.3L use the same cranks.
........ Last edited by Mike 01WS6; 12-18-2006 at 11:24 AM.
12-18-2006, 12:45 PM
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Cool Thread
I have been running the LS2 Block with great results. I am looking at all the new blocks and leaning towards the LSX block. Shooting for 200 mph on a drag radial and 6's on a 10.5 next season with a single turbo.
I have been running the LS2 Block with great results. I am looking at all the new blocks and leaning towards the LSX block. Shooting for 200 mph on a drag radial and 6's on a 10.5 next season with a single turbo.
12-18-2006, 03:00 PM
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Whats the price John? How much time before they ship? That block looks very cool for the high power builds!
Major spray, good luck with your goals!! It will be nice to see another turbo LS in the 6's.
Kurt
Major spray, good luck with your goals!! It will be nice to see another turbo LS in the 6's.
Kurt
12-19-2006, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by cablebandit
it is as strong but if you are going to keep the incons...you need to stay 346 to avoid as much backpressure probs as possible. If i were to keep my kit, i'd do a 5.3 bored to ls1 cubes....should last a LONG time
I dunno if I'm confused or maybe I just found a flaw in the reasoning?
5.3 crank = 3.622 stroke or the same as LS1/LS6
4.8 crank = 3.270 stroke
5.3 has less bore than a 5.7, but same stroke.
4.8 crank = 3.270 stroke
5.3 has less bore than a 5.7, but same stroke.
I guess I'm destined for a bore distorting LS1 block because I won't settle for a 90lb gain in heft with an iron block. My car's already a pig.