Turbo guys: Tell me about your timing and CR
12-13-2006, 12:18 AM
#1
Turbo guys: Tell me about your timing and CR TSIA: What does your timing look like from peak-torque up to peak RPM and what is your static CR? Are you running meth? Do you feel you are taking advantage of extra timing with the meth?
The reason I ask is... through the course of some things my knock sensors (or more likely their cable) has had something out of site happen to it. My AFR on meth NEVER goes leaner than 10.2-10.3:1 and my timing is 14deg at peak tq moving up to about 16deg to about 16.5deg by 6K RPMs. My static CR is 8.5:1.
I am at 15psi and my meth gives me octane and low IATs. I feel this is a conservative amount of timing for the setup; what do you guys think? I hope to have the knock sensor stuff sorted out shortly, but it could be a few weeks. If you feel that this is low(timing), is there a safe place to be for the next week or so without knock sensors? How much timing do you think I could run on 109 or higher fuel?
Thanks guys.
The reason I ask is... through the course of some things my knock sensors (or more likely their cable) has had something out of site happen to it. My AFR on meth NEVER goes leaner than 10.2-10.3:1 and my timing is 14deg at peak tq moving up to about 16deg to about 16.5deg by 6K RPMs. My static CR is 8.5:1.
I am at 15psi and my meth gives me octane and low IATs. I feel this is a conservative amount of timing for the setup; what do you guys think? I hope to have the knock sensor stuff sorted out shortly, but it could be a few weeks. If you feel that this is low(timing), is there a safe place to be for the next week or so without knock sensors? How much timing do you think I could run on 109 or higher fuel?
Thanks guys.
12-13-2006, 12:57 AM
#2
I think you already plan on running more timing, and you are just looking for people to say it is ok to push your motor to the edge before getting all of your sensors fixed. Seriously, the timing maps I have seen posted have been all over the map on this issue. Personally, I feel that yours is probably safe, but not what I would call conservative at peak torque, although maybe you could run more at high rpm. That being said, I'm not the one who would pay for your blown motor, so STAY CONSERVATIVE until your knock sensors are fixed.
12-13-2006, 01:11 AM
#3
No, I'm not looking to go any higher at all on the setup without knock sensors. If people had a differing opinion on what safe was, and thought it was higher, I wanted to hear it. The last question made was a general question and AFTER the sensors are fixed; with all that is listed on GOOD fuel, where do you feel max timing and amount should occur?
12-13-2006, 11:50 AM
#7
i would leave the timing alone (since your computer wont adjust it vs different boost levels anyway)
i would set the fuel up so it never goes leaner than 11.5, so you will run rich on low boost and be no leaner than 11.5 at highest boost you ever run (since your computer wont adjust it vs different boost levels)
i would run on pump gas only up to say 14psi, from 14 to 17 i would spray methanol and above 17 use some race gas in the mix and spray methanol. this is what i do now to keep parts inside the block.
i would set the fuel up so it never goes leaner than 11.5, so you will run rich on low boost and be no leaner than 11.5 at highest boost you ever run (since your computer wont adjust it vs different boost levels)
i would run on pump gas only up to say 14psi, from 14 to 17 i would spray methanol and above 17 use some race gas in the mix and spray methanol. this is what i do now to keep parts inside the block.
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12-13-2006, 12:12 PM
#8
Originally Posted by RW99
I'll add to the question and ask if anybody runs without knock sensors.
<braces self for ridicule>
<braces self for ridicule>
Everyone with BS3 (except MM, he gotz some custom schizzy) and most of the other standalone EMSs...
MM- thanks, I run the meth whenever I plan on seeing more than 9psi (which is always
) and set some sort of personal limit at about 15.5psi on the meth and pump-gas. (and thanks again for the help yesterday) tonight 
The REAL reason for the post is that I hope to pull the intake this weekend to fix the knock sensors so I can get this thing onto a dyno... ...and I was wondering where everyone else ended up timing wise.
12-14-2006, 09:09 AM
#10
Am I asking about some super-secret **** here? I don't care if it's front mount, rear mount, auto, manual, stock ECM or aftermarket.... I just wanna know what your timing is looking like at WOT and what your CR is. There is no way that you peep have all of this money into setups and DON'T KNOW...
-Thanks
-Thanks
12-14-2006, 12:12 PM
#12
LS1Tech Co-Founder
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Me...
Blower:
8:1
21 degrees of timing
18psi
C16
Turbo:
8:1
19-21 degrees of timing
24-25psi
C16
Going from 10:1 to 8:1 in my case means a drop in power of maybe 6%. At least one psi at my power level is just getting me back to where a 9:1 combo would be.
That being said, I think somewhere between 12 and 15 psi on pump gas w/o meth is possible if you have lower compression, and an intercooler that helps. I'm pretty sure I could do 24 psi on 109 octane, but not sure of the timing.
Blower:
8:1
21 degrees of timing
18psi
C16
Turbo:
8:1
19-21 degrees of timing
24-25psi
C16
Going from 10:1 to 8:1 in my case means a drop in power of maybe 6%. At least one psi at my power level is just getting me back to where a 9:1 combo would be.
That being said, I think somewhere between 12 and 15 psi on pump gas w/o meth is possible if you have lower compression, and an intercooler that helps. I'm pretty sure I could do 24 psi on 109 octane, but not sure of the timing.
12-15-2006, 10:39 AM
#13
9 Second Club
Not a turbo, but my YSi blower.
I seem to run a lot more timing than most...maybe thats SOTP tuning for ya, but Ive given it a lot of abuse, and its still hanging together. My ecu does not haave any KR facility
With meth, Ive added about 6 degrees extra across the board ( on boost anyway ). Same again....no knock issues, and its hanging together circa low 11's AFR, and all the abuse Ive given it including standing one standing mile run.
I'm making around 19psi at 7000rpm. Here is my spark table, this was same as used on a rather easy run of 10.5 at 145mph on 97RON pump fuel only ( equiv to 93PON you guys get in the US ) on a cool day.
CR 8.7:1
I seem to run a lot more timing than most...maybe thats SOTP tuning for ya, but Ive given it a lot of abuse, and its still hanging together. My ecu does not haave any KR facility
With meth, Ive added about 6 degrees extra across the board ( on boost anyway ). Same again....no knock issues, and its hanging together circa low 11's AFR, and all the abuse Ive given it including standing one standing mile run.
I'm making around 19psi at 7000rpm. Here is my spark table, this was same as used on a rather easy run of 10.5 at 145mph on 97RON pump fuel only ( equiv to 93PON you guys get in the US ) on a cool day.
CR 8.7:1
12-15-2006, 10:46 PM
#15
9 Second Club
What's a knock sensor??? LS2 block and 01 PCM.
I'm running about 8.5:1 with 17 degrees at peak torque and 19 degrees peak HP. I took that up to 17lbs of boost on 94 octane with a 11.5 AFR target. I ran the stock PCM in closed loop on the street tune but ran out of MAF at the track before I got a full pass.
Next step was to install my Alky Control kit and change over to HPT's 3-bar SD tuning. Timing is still set the same, but I only had enough tuning time on the street to get the SD tune in for part throttle and roughed in for a few passes at 15lbs before the car was parked for the winter.
Is it spring yet???
Rick
I'm running about 8.5:1 with 17 degrees at peak torque and 19 degrees peak HP. I took that up to 17lbs of boost on 94 octane with a 11.5 AFR target. I ran the stock PCM in closed loop on the street tune but ran out of MAF at the track before I got a full pass.
Next step was to install my Alky Control kit and change over to HPT's 3-bar SD tuning. Timing is still set the same, but I only had enough tuning time on the street to get the SD tune in for part throttle and roughed in for a few passes at 15lbs before the car was parked for the winter.
Is it spring yet???
Rick
12-17-2006, 08:11 AM
#16
FormerVendor
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How do you guys tune w/o a knock sensor? Normally on all the 4 cyl. cars i've messed with, you add timing untill you start to pick up a little knock and then you back the timing off a hair and leave it there.
12-17-2006, 10:42 AM
#18
9 Second Club
Originally Posted by 69vette
How do you guys tune w/o a knock sensor?
Or there are a variety of knock sensor based knock detection systems you can use.
But dont forget, knock sensors can pick up other noises, not just detonation. Your ears/brain are a lot better at filtering these out. At least, they should be.
12-17-2006, 10:50 AM
#19
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I am at 18 degrees of timing across the board over 3500 rpm at WOT, 19 psi of boost, with the same compression as you. I run to 7,000 rpm, No meth on 93 octane.
Timing can technically be adjusted based on boost. With a 2 or 3 bar setup, the timing at WOT can be changed up or down at whatever KPA you want. Like 14 psi, 17 degrees, 15 psi 16.5 drgees, 16 psi 16 degrees, and so on.
I would not due another thing untill your knock sensors are repaired. The trick to tuning the reall high HP crap on pump, is to have no KR at any rpm, load, or boost level. Works for me!
Timing can technically be adjusted based on boost. With a 2 or 3 bar setup, the timing at WOT can be changed up or down at whatever KPA you want. Like 14 psi, 17 degrees, 15 psi 16.5 drgees, 16 psi 16 degrees, and so on.
I would not due another thing untill your knock sensors are repaired. The trick to tuning the reall high HP crap on pump, is to have no KR at any rpm, load, or boost level. Works for me!
Last edited by nitrorocket; 12-17-2006 at 10:55 AM.
12-17-2006, 11:22 AM
#20
Originally Posted by nitrorocket
I am at 18 degrees of timing across the board over 3500 rpm at WOT, 19 psi of boost, with the same compression as you. I run to 7,000 rpm, No meth on 93 octane.
Timing can technically be adjusted based on boost. With a 2 or 3 bar setup, the timing at WOT can be changed up or down at whatever KPA you want. Like 14 psi, 17 degrees, 15 psi 16.5 drgees, 16 psi 16 degrees, and so on.
I would not due another thing untill your knock sensors are repaired. The trick to tuning the reall high HP crap on pump, is to have no KR at any rpm, load, or boost level. Works for me!
Timing can technically be adjusted based on boost. With a 2 or 3 bar setup, the timing at WOT can be changed up or down at whatever KPA you want. Like 14 psi, 17 degrees, 15 psi 16.5 drgees, 16 psi 16 degrees, and so on.
I would not due another thing untill your knock sensors are repaired. The trick to tuning the reall high HP crap on pump, is to have no KR at any rpm, load, or boost level. Works for me!
After getting some dyno numbers, I'd say that it's gonna stay where it's at for a while. I thought the HPT 3-bar setup just had a boost adder and extended VE? It has boost referenced timing control as well?