JD_AMG

Just did:
"The 1998-1999 and some 2000 WS6's got 1LE springs and other minor 1le parts, different decarbon shocks, ect. Nothing major, but it was more than the simple swaybar upgrades of the mid 2000-2002 cars got."

This explains why my ws6 had the base v8 springs.

Jesus, now you are reaching... i wish the ws6 cars didn't have the tacky polished wheels and they were painted instead.
If you really want to argue the SS got an updated spoiler and the WS6 didn't. So there is another difference.

Z28tek

I just found that myself, they made the 1LE springs standard on the WS6, then after a certain year they were all the same.
Maybe that article I found was for my 99.

Love this sentence, it backs everything I have said.
It does not back what you or RPM have said though.

The painted 10 spoke wheels look like **** compared to the polished 5 spoke wheels and are much less expensive.
A Trans-Am already had the wrap around spoiler so its already standard.

Polished wheels, polished tips, some options like dual lumbar and the 32MM swaybar are all standard on a WS6.
Not on a base SS. So no, they are not the same.

Feel free to argue over the value of these differences and the rarity of the car, it is what it is, sorry.
Whats a real WS6 hood sell for now compared to a real SS hood? That's what I thought, because there are 3 times as many [SS hoods] of them.
Not trying to be biased towards my car, this is simple truth.
The link about the sales numbers is interesting...many people saw the writing on the wall for the end of the 4th gens... many of the 00-02 cars came with, or were ordered with more options.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

I find it amusing how people come here, ask these questions and then never come back. OP was the OP, and that was his last post on this thread. The rest of us the just start saying the same S we always say, lol.

I haven't driven my WS6 in three years, it's covered in the garage. Pulled the cover back to check the battery charger (trickle) and my heart started racing just seeing that nose. I took like 20 pictures for no reason, I was just so excited.

This arguing is childish. Who gives a F? They are what they are.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Polished wheels or not has nothing to do with it. The point is, a Z28 and a Trans Am came with 16x8s. An SS or a WS6 car was upgraded to a 17x9. This change is functionally the same between both SS and WS6. You aren't getting a functionally better wheel with the WS6 (vs. SS), it's just a different finish on the wheels...purely cosmetic...but both are upgrades from their respective base models.

As for the exhaust tips, you are incorrect. The exact same factory catback was used on both a base SS and a WS6. They both received polished 2.75" diameter rolled edge tips. If your father's SS didn't have these tips, then either they were changed or he had the very desirable (but NOT available on WS6) optional SLP dual/dual catback, which had dual split tips, that were not high polished, and a MUCH better muffler than the base SS/WS6 system.

Not at all actually.

Again, exhaust tips are the same (unless the SS was ordered with a dual/dual system, which is a further upgrade in performance - even though the tips aren't high polished on that system) and wheel finish doesn't change the fact that both models received a wheel upgrade from the base arrangement. No LS1 SS came from the factory with the black square Z28 tips or muffler. Period. You won't find any credible information to dispute this because it's 100% true.

The AQ9 seats are also available on base Trans Am, no WS6 required, so it's not necessarily a specific WS6 upgrade.

Yes, actually an SS does have the same sway bar upgrade as a WS6; 32mm front bar (vs. 30mm for base model V8s). Neither received a larger rear bar though. And no, it doesn't make a huge difference - it's the 17x9 wheels that make most of the difference.

You might want to check that link out again. Pay close attention to the last post which states, " Mechanically, they are pretty much identical." The interior and audio options referred to are the same for a regular Trans Am. WS6 did not get dedicated seats which weren't also available in base Trans Am, nor did it get any audio options which weren't also available in base Trans Am.

No, there were not 2-3 times as many SS cars as WS6 cars. This is totally arguable, because it's not correct. If you look up the data for both across all the LS1 years, you'll see that the build totals are not nearly that far apart. 2-3 times is exponential, and definitely not correct. There were around ~30k LS1 WS6 cars built, and definitely NOT 60-90k LS1 SS cars built.

Sway bars are the same, tire width (275mm) is the same, wheel size (17x9, 50mm offset) is the same, both have upgraded hoods. Yes, some standard equipment is different, but that reaches beyond the WS6/SS level because some of those items (such as leather and T-tops) were already standard on Trans Am but not Z28 (i.e. not special/specific to WS6 only). As stated before, production numbers are not nearly as far apart as you seem to think.

Check out this link for some production data:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/chevrolet...l#post12764909

You can find production breakdowns for both WS6 and SS packages in JohnnyBs98WS6Rag's signature. I think you'll be surprised at how small the production quantity difference is if you really believe that 2-3 times as many SS cars were built.

I had already mentioned this earlier in the thread, regarding claims of 1LE springs on early WS6 cars, but that by the time my 2000 car was built, this was no longer the case. So your research confirms what I already mentioned and backs exactly what I already said (but that you apparently didn't read or chose to disregard). You can find it in post #54.

Your opinion of appearance doesn't change anything about the fact that these wheels are both upgrades from the respective base V8 models, and are functionally the same.

This doesn't change the fact that an SS received a specific "SS" spoiler, not available on any other trim level of Camaro, and WS6 received no such specific spoiler - just a base Trans Am unit.

Exhaust tips, 32mm sway bar and wheel upgrade size are all the same between the two. Exactly the same. Wheel finish is different, and seats are different. But the seat option is not specific to WS6 and the wheel finish is just cosmetic - so which wheel is "better" is just a matter of opinion as they are functionally the same wheel (i.e. size and offset).

This is not the truth at all. There were not 3 times as many SS cars built. Check out those production totals if you want a better understanding.

Z28tek

They cost more to manufacture, up the price of the WS6 package and are worth more then painted wheels.

A standard LS1 Camaro SS does not get polished wheels, polished tips, dual lumbar support (there are more then just this) and a 32MM swaybar, period.
You said they were the same, they are not. I got you dead to rights, please just drop it.

I am looking into the springs, bushings and shocks to verify those, not sure about that yet.

There are ALOT more Camaro SS cars then WS6 cars from 1993-2002.
This is not arguable.
And sorry to all, not trying to argue, just want clarification, a stock basic WS6 gets more the a standard SS, which was all I was trying to prove, and have.
We all know the birds are harder to come across, have lower production numbers and demand more coin.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

What does value have to do with it? Who said anything about value of the wheels? I said they are functionally identical (meaning they perform the same), and are both upgrades from their respective base models. This is fact.

But, if you want to talk about initial MSRP for this option (WU8/SS vs. WS6), maybe you'd like to see an SS window sticker? I can provide that ($3,625 for the package by 2002):




A base SS does in fact get a 32mm front swaybar, and a wheel upgrade that is functionally identical to the WS6 wheel. The AQ9 seats are not specific to a WS6, and the polished wheel finish is cosmetic, not functional. This is all true, so there is nothing to drop.

As far as this exhaust tip thing goes, I'll do the work for you. Here are pictures of the only available exhaust tips for LS1 SS cars from 1998-2002....

Here is the base '98 SS system, polished single outlet (exactly the same as '98 WS6):



Here is the base '99-'02 SS system, polished dual 2.75" outlet (exactly the same as '99-'02 WS6):



Here is the optional upgrade SLP dual/dual system, dual split tips, stainless but not high polished (NOT available on WS6):



And, lastly, here is the optional CME (center mount exhaust) upgrade option from SLP on the SS, which also uses the same dual/dual muffler as above but receives specific tips to match the rear fascia (also NOT available on WS6):





All factory LS1 SS cars came with one of the above setups, and their base configuration (shown in the first two images above, one is '98 specific and the other is 1999-'02) is exactly the same as a WS6. Period.

You should look into those other things as well, because you still don't have it correct. You can use the images above as a starting point to do your own research if you don't want to believe me.

1993 to 1997 wasn't part of the discussion, and prior to 1996 isn't even a valid topic as there were no WS6/SS models as specific trim levels.

Beyond that, yes, your claim is completely arguable because it is wrong. You must not have looked at the production totals yet. There are NOT 2-3 times as many SS cars. Not even close. Make sure you check that one out too, you'll be surprised.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

I've let my cover get so dirty its just balled up on the roof needing to be washed. I sit in the shop and drink looking at the cat prints and dirt on my 1000 dollar lexan windows. Ah well...........

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

WS6-specific upgrades over a base Trans Am are no more extensive than base SS-specific upgrades over a Z28.

JD_AMG

Only proves you half right:
" simple swaybar upgrades of the mid 2000-2002 cars got. "
The later years didn't get as much, like I said earlier.

painted > polished > chrome
Sorry polished is tacky, this isn't the 60s anymore.
Since you were splitting hairs I thought I would do the same, the SS gets a special spoiler, the WS6 gets the standard TA spoiler, so theres that.

1.) The SS got the 32mm front bar.
2.) Polished wheels are not a "special option", no one cares
3.) The dual lumbar is a joke, have you sat in good seat before!?
This is like trying to argue the WS6 was better because it got a different looking radio than what the Camaro has, no one cares about that junk, it wasn't good to begin with.

Z28tek

Its a standard option on a WS6, not on an SS.
How good my *** feels in it is not the point...I guess there are other and more standard options too (from an LS1tech user), I will dig them up as well.

Except for factory polished wheels, dual or oval polished tips (SS got a single, or polished singles, not duals and not all polished, pending year), a few interior options, WS6 wheel caps, and maybe some of the suspension upgrades, pending the year.

There are ALOT more Camaro SS cars then WS6 cars from 1993-2002, arguing this makes you look un-educated.
This is not debatable.?!

A stock basic WS6 gets more then a standard SS overall (not as much as I first though, but there is more) and especially in certain years (polished wheels are worth more then painted, sorry), which was all I was trying to prove, and have, and with lower overall production numbers, are worth more. Simple truths about the 4th gen cars, not a big deal. HotRod Magazine rated the WS6 LS1 as one of the best looking muscle cars of all time...the LS1 Camaro SS? Not in the top 100.

You can argue how similar they are, that was never my angle.
The WS6 gets a better minimum package with higher quality wheels and more options (whether you think the changes are minor or major), period compared to an stock basic SS, unless the SS is an SLP, and has far less production numbers. Please feel free to argue how similar they are or express your opinion/guesses on what you think they are worth comparatively, if it makes you feel better. The WS6 is more popular, has more standard goodies, is more rare, and its worth more then a standard SS, the end. Nothing you say will change anything in the previous sentence...EVER.

Not trying to disrespect anyone, or cause a stir, I have the upmost respect for RPM WS6, JD and others, I have learned alot from you guys and half no ill-intent, but I feel I need to stand up for my take on this.
Ain't nothing like the flaming bird

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

It's also optional content on base Trans Am, it's not specific to the WS6 package and has its own RPO (AQ9). You don't have to have a WS6 to have these seats, nor are they specific to only a WS6, nor does every WS6 have them. In this case, what you're actually comparing is available Trans Am content vs. available SS/Z28 content since, again, these seats are not WS6 specific nor WS6 standard equipment.

To put this another way, the WS6 package was also available on Formula through the 2000 model year. But the AQ9 seats were not part of the package (i.e. this is optional Trans Am content, not WS6 specific content). So this was not standard on all WS6 cars, nor was it specific to the package.

Not sure how I could be any more clear.

Polished finish on a wheel is cosmetic, not functional. They are both 17x9, 50mm offset (WS6 and SS). Both cars had a specific wheel upgrade, respectively, that was only available on that one trim level (and that's the whole point, that both SS and WS6 received wheel upgrades, which were functionally identical between the two, from their base counterparts; which *finish* was nicer, in your opinion, is a different and subjective matter.)

LS1 WS6 never, in any model year, received any different exhaust system or tips than a base SS model. That is a fact. For any differences in this regard, you'd have to reach back to the '96-'97 cars, NOT LS1s, which wasn't something I was ever debating in previous posts; it's a different conversation.

And there were not "a few interior options" that were specific to WS6.

You're not? Then what about this:

Seems like the value aspect is something you just can't help but to debate.

Haha, the irony here is quite amusing. But no, what appears uneducated is the statement you've posted above. You're grouping model years that didn't even offer these specific trim levels (1993-'95), and you've clearly not yet taken the time to look up the build totals of WS6 vs. SS to see how incorrect your claim of "2-3 times as many SSs being built" actually is (I even provided a link for you, not sure how I could make it any easier). When you do eventually investigate this, specifically for the LS1 years, I think you'll find the data shocking as it is VERY different from your claim.

So, yes, for your sake I have continued in an effort to lead you to the truth. And, as you have asked, I've stated "otherwise" regarding your outrageous claim of the build total difference between these two. Now, it's up to you to do the research and see for yourself since you don't want to believe me.

So this somehow indicates that the WS6 has considerably more upgrades over a base Trans Am than an SS does over a Z28? Interesting interpretation, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Your "angle" was that "an SS is a Z28 with a lid", and that, by comparison, a WS6 was something much more special than a base Trans Am. This is wrong in more than one way.

You seem to be really focused on value. I don't know why you keep including that in your replies, I actually stated many posts back (post #50) that I agree that a WS6 is worth more in the current market - all else being equal. This was never a matter of debate, so I have no idea why you keep mentioning it.

If you close your mind to the facts, your knowledge of this platform will never improve and you'll continue to face disagreement with folks who are better informed and more experienced. I do believe that you are truly interested in these cars, but you won't gain any respect by posting/claiming false information as fact, and then becoming combative when someone else points out the mistake. A more open minded approach and greater willingness to separate what you want to be true from what is actually true will yield a much better learning experience.

JD_AMG

I don't think you get it still, those options are meaningless. Who cares? You are bringing up utterly pointless things. Want to say its better because it gets a "WS6" badge on the back and the Camaro doesn't get a "WS6" badge? Come on dude this is totally silly, you are splitting hairs on things that no one actually cares about. And when you think about it, you will have a MUCH harder time finding an LS1 fbody that has totally stock exhaust today than one with aftermarket exhaust, so who cares about some tips? Those tips will look great in the dumpster with the rest of the restrictive exhaust and garbage shocks.

Again, over your head, but the SS gets everything that the WS6 gets that actually matters. No one cares about "polished dual tips" and lumbar support. The SS got all the same mechanical things the WS6 got from the same year. A different hood than base, Same suspension, and same wheels/tires. THOSE are the things that would actually matter, and even those things are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.

Z28tek

We can take this to a private conversation, but I need clarification on something.
There are special models of each car, but the main 3 base cars are as follows:

Pontiac made a base car v6, a formula v8 and Trans Am v8.
Chevy made a base v6, a Z28 v8 and SS V8.

I always thought they about lined up, having mostly similar options, for example, many base formulas and z28's have 16X8 wheels.
I've read a few articles about the Trans Am WS6 and a few about the Camaro SS, and nowhere did I read the Camaro SS got the same suspension upgrades a WS6 did unless it was ordered with them.
I was unaware a base SS came with those features, because if that's true, EVERY base, or Non SLP-SS has those WS6 upgrades? But a regular Trans Am does not? Is that correct?

Why does that not sound right?

Jenson

iTrader: (32)

Fixed that, Chevy did not make the SS, SLP did, along with the WS6. And yes, thats been the point theyve been trying to make to you. WS6 is to a Trans Am just like a SS is to a Z28. WS6 and SS are the same and a Trans Am and Z28 are the same. Different bodies, different interior options, but thats about it really. And polished wheels and lumbar supports are only a good option if you like them...I'll take painted silver 10 spokes and camaro seats all day!! I wish I could put 4th Gen camaro seats in everything I own, THE most comfortable seat on the planet for me

Puck

iTrader: (17)

For a drag car or something you plan on tearing down anyway the 4th gens are hard to beat. Dirt cheap car, cheap parts, and massive aftermarket. I wouldn't necessarily pay more for a WS6 unless it was for nostalgia or to keep forever though since contrary to what a lot of people say they are basically all the same. If you want the aggressive looks you can get that easily with a hood swap and some small stuff, and if all the performance parts are being replaced anyway it makes no sense to pay more up front.

For a driver, the C6 is miles ahead. Interior is better, the car drives and rides better, and will hold value better. If you don't need the nearly useless rear seats in the 4th gen and can afford the higher up front cost, C6 all the way. Also FWIW, as a driver the C6 is cheaper to insure and gets better gas mileage than a 4th gen.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

My car has one dual tip and one oval tip. It was part of the ultra rare WSS6 package.

Jenson

iTrader: (32)

Z28tek

Haha! So funny! :handjob:

I did see a Blackbird at a car show in Rochester this summer, love the 380HP hood decals and TTII wheels, wish they put a decal like that on the WS6 but the Ram Air decal looks good too.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This is almost correct, but as Jenson pointed out above the SS isn't really a separate model. So, it's:

Pontiac: V6 Firebird, V8 Firebird Formula, V8 Trans Am*
Chevrolet: V6 Camaro, V8 Camaro Z28

*One could argue that even Trans Am isn't exactly a separate model, since the VIN for a Trans Am will still show "Formula/Trans Am", but many/most folks consider it a separate model.

Things don't quite line up because Pontiac offered both a V8 Formula (which is actually closer to a Z28 than Trans Am is) and the V8 Trans Am model, whereas Camaro had only* the Z28 as a V8 model (*technically, there was also the B4C car, which was a special service/police package vehicle that wasn't a Z28 but that still had the V8 drivetrain, but those weren't generally available to the public so we'll exclude them from the conversation - but I thought I should at least mention them).

Where things get a little more complicated is when we start adding the special packages/upgrade trim levels. This includes SS (WU8), WS6, and Firehawk (WU6).

You could only add the WU8 (SS) package to a Z28 model. All SSs were originally Z28s that were sent to SLP for conversion. The base SS package includes comparable items as the WS6 package, though obviously some are a bit different due to the cosmetics - but functionally, they are directly comparable. The WS6 does get a raised lower air box that the SS does not (probably due to hood clearance), but then the SS received a rubber seal around the bottom of the lower air box that the WS6 did not. But, generally, these packages include identical (or comparable) content.

SS, however, could be ordered with additional SLP options (as you have correctly mentioned) under the "Y2Y" RPO. These additional options are different depending on model year, and include everything from optional wheels to further suspension upgrades to cosmetic and exhaust pieces.

Things are a bit more complicated on the Pontiac side. The WS6 cars, during the LS1 years, were a product of ASC (American Sunroof Company). They were converted by ASC in a similar fashion as the SS conversion was done by SLP. I had mentioned earlier that my '00 WS6 was car #7155 for the 2000 model year, converted on 5/23/00 - that was data I obtained directly from ASC (the lady who used to provide this was named Andrea Harewood) after my car was assembled.

Unlike the SS package which was only available on Z28, the WS6 package was available on both Trans Am and Formula* (*2000 was the last year for this package on Formula - after that, it was Trans Am only). So you could have a Trans Am WS6 or a Formula WS6, and the WS6 content remained the same between these two models, but other content (such as seats and fabric, for example) could change based on whether it was a Trans Am or Formula. As an example, a local friend of mine owned one of the ~175 1999 WS6 Formulas built, and his came from the factory with cloth seats/no lumbar support.

Then you also have Firehawk. This was always an SLP creation, including during the LS1 years. And we'll continue to stick with the LS1 years just to keep things simple. Technically, there were no 1998 Firehawks - but in reality there were, they just weren't readily available to the public for order. But it would be false to say that none exist, even though you might never find one listed for sale. But this became another regular option for both Formula and Trans Am in 1999 under RPO WU6. This package also contains much of the same base content as an SS or WS6 car, though the upgrade SLP exhaust system (dual/dual, which was optional on SS but never on WS6) was standard. Other SLP options were also available on Firehawk, just like on SS, though some of those options are not the same as SS (such as the optional spoilers, of which SS had no such option). Much like WS6, you could have a Formula Firehawk or a Trans Am Firehawk, so some content could change based on whether it was a Formula or a Trans Am - even though the Firehawk package was the same.

All of the Z28s, Formulas, and Trans Ams came with 16x8 wheels, either silver painted or chrome. Only WS6, SS and Firehawk trim levels received 17x9 wheels - with some different finishes and/or designs available depending on model year. Firehawk and SS had optional wheels and/or wheel finishes via SLP, but all WS6 models always received the same wheel (for a given year*) with three exceptions:

- Special blue anodized wheels for the 30th Anniversary model
- Special black painted wheels for the CETA
- Two wheel options offered in model year 2000 only; RPO N66 (3-spoke "swirly" wheel, very rare), and RPO QF6 which is the same wheel on your '99 car (keep in mind, these RPOs do not necessarily designate the same wheel in other model years - I believe your '99 car would show N66 even though you have the same wheels that were offered under QF6 the following year).

*Some very early 2001 WS6 cars did not yet receive the Speedline (QB6) wheels which became standard in 2001, but this was limited to very few examples.

But all of these wheels were always 17x9". Any differences are purely cosmetic. Tires for all of these models were always 275/40/17 in size, but WS6 did not offer any tire upgrade options (unlike SS, via SLP) - so every WS6 car was delivered with Goodyear Eagle F1 GS tires.

A regular Trans Am would not have any WS6 specific parts. You are correct.

Base SS and WS6 received the same suspension features for a given year. The debate about 1LE springs appearing on the early cars is something that I've heard for many years, but I've never taken the time to 100% confirm this for myself. What I can tell you is, my '00 WS6 (built in May of '00) did not come with them.

Technically, there is no such thing as a "non-SLP" SS car. Every WU8 (SS) package car went to SLP for final conversion - even if they didn't receive any additional Y2Y content. This is why you can get your SS build number from SLP even if your SS doesn't have any optional content and is simply a base SS.

Similarly, every (LS1) WS6 car is actually an ASC WS6 car, since all of them were sent to ASC for final conversion. But the difference is, there was no optional content to add to a WS6 car while it was at ASC (unlike the SSs, which did have additional content available through SLP). This is why I mentioned before that there are more "unique" SS cars than WS6 cars since the WS6 package did not offer any additional upgrades beyond the package itself. You could add all kinds of content to an SS, above and beyond the base package, and create something more unique. Again, please don't take this as a statement of "value" or "collector worth", I'm just simply explaining that there was a lot more optional content on an SS car than a WS6 - but their *base* package was nearly identical.

The only truly "rare" LS1 WS6 cars are the WS6 Formuals built from 1998-'00. There were only about ~600 of them total, built across all three years of production. And, because they are Formulas, the optional model content can very quite a bit (things like leather and T-tops not being standard on Formula, unlike on Trans Am).

bammax

This is what 3k will get you in a f-body if you don't mind high miles and a little work