43 WHP gain with shorties, why such a bad rap ?
10-27-2009, 12:55 PM
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43 WHP gain with shorties, why such a bad rap ? I know shorties dont give as much HP as LTs but why does almost every post on here say they are a complete waste of time? All you here from people is they are a waste, wont give any HP increase, lucky if you get 5 HP, not better then stock manifolds etc etc etc. I started searching for actual dynos since I got tired of all the guessing game BS.
This is a LS1 with cam/heads etc.
HP TQ
403 406 LTs
390 390.6 shorties
346 373.7 Stock
Link with graph
https://ls1tech.com/forums/12370148-post8.html
I mean 44 WHP is a "waste of time and money" ??? Obviously they are flowing a hell of a lot better then stock. Only 17 TQ compared to 33 TQ is pretty large compared to the LT gains but still. I just dont understand why shorties have received such a bad rap on this board and others. Just like a cam some will make more power and in different RPMs. Shorties cost about half as much as LTs and are a HELL of a lot easier to install . They seem to have a valid place on the mod list for our cars. I dont see why these are just blown off as virtually a snake oil mod.
422 WHP/415 TQ on a small 224 cam with shorties * low 12s on street tires *
371 /372 bolt on with shorties no mids even
378/375 Bolt on with shorties with mids
371/369 MUSTANG DYNO bolt on shorties
363/375 bolt on shorties no mids
12.9 trapping 112.6 MPH bolt on with shorties no mids street tires
lots of high HP FI running shorties
Other misc info I have found from very knowledgeable members
Mistermike;
"If the cam is designed to take into account the flow characteristics of the shorter headers, you'll be fine. Shortening primary length on headers simply shifts the point at which scavenging occurs to a higher RPM range. Knowing that going in allows you to use the powerband intelligently. The use of the term "bottleneck" is generaly going to apply to pumping losses, not scavenging. This is mainly going to be a product of the diameter of the primary tubes and collector, not the length. Most people who knock shorties are simply repeating drivel they heard on the internet."
Clearly the LTs make more power and TQ but clearly the shorties are FAR better then stock.
This is a LS1 with cam/heads etc.
HP TQ
403 406 LTs
390 390.6 shorties
346 373.7 Stock
Link with graph
https://ls1tech.com/forums/12370148-post8.html
I mean 44 WHP is a "waste of time and money" ??? Obviously they are flowing a hell of a lot better then stock. Only 17 TQ compared to 33 TQ is pretty large compared to the LT gains but still. I just dont understand why shorties have received such a bad rap on this board and others. Just like a cam some will make more power and in different RPMs. Shorties cost about half as much as LTs and are a HELL of a lot easier to install . They seem to have a valid place on the mod list for our cars. I dont see why these are just blown off as virtually a snake oil mod.
422 WHP/415 TQ on a small 224 cam with shorties * low 12s on street tires *
371 /372 bolt on with shorties no mids even
378/375 Bolt on with shorties with mids
371/369 MUSTANG DYNO bolt on shorties
363/375 bolt on shorties no mids
12.9 trapping 112.6 MPH bolt on with shorties no mids street tires
lots of high HP FI running shorties
Other misc info I have found from very knowledgeable members
Mistermike;
"If the cam is designed to take into account the flow characteristics of the shorter headers, you'll be fine. Shortening primary length on headers simply shifts the point at which scavenging occurs to a higher RPM range. Knowing that going in allows you to use the powerband intelligently. The use of the term "bottleneck" is generaly going to apply to pumping losses, not scavenging. This is mainly going to be a product of the diameter of the primary tubes and collector, not the length. Most people who knock shorties are simply repeating drivel they heard on the internet."
Clearly the LTs make more power and TQ but clearly the shorties are FAR better then stock.
Last edited by dlively11; 10-28-2009 at 10:13 PM.
10-27-2009, 01:00 PM
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Well, from the looks of the graph, I think they shut it down early. LT's will pull harder up top, also the earlier manifolds are pretty bad, a swap on a 01-02 would not show the gains.
10-27-2009, 01:04 PM
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Go up to 6500-7000 and the difference would be more pronounced. I'm planning on shifting somewhere there once I get heads/cam. Shorties are nice for stock shift points. LTs are so cheap now if you don't want stainless steel that it's not worth getting shorties unless it's for emissions.
10-27-2009, 01:13 PM
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i think the general reason people use longtubes over shorties is more power throughout the entire band and also if youre swapping headers you might as well do it and gain 20+rwhp instead of only 10+ rwhp
10-27-2009, 01:17 PM
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No doubt the LTs are better even on this example especially when looking at the TQ. The shorties however did pretty damn well on a very demanding setup. Impressed me anyway and clearly much much better the stock manifolds.
I am still torn personally. There are finally some decent options for LT/mids on the Goats but the isntall is a major PITA, emissions would be a PITa but for me I cant due to ground clearances in my driveway. I already scrape with stock pipes. I just might have to compromise and go this route. I almost did them before but got scared away after reading up a bunch on them. I figure even if you get 10-15 WHP its a worth while mod.
I am still torn personally. There are finally some decent options for LT/mids on the Goats but the isntall is a major PITA, emissions would be a PITa but for me I cant due to ground clearances in my driveway. I already scrape with stock pipes. I just might have to compromise and go this route. I almost did them before but got scared away after reading up a bunch on them. I figure even if you get 10-15 WHP its a worth while mod.
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10-27-2009, 01:39 PM
#8
Your post is misleading. The shorties did not make "43rwhp" by themselves.
The shorties vs. LT's argument still amuses me. If shorties worked so well, they'd be used a lot more often.
Fact: Shorties have been dyno proven to make around 8-15rwhp, and in most cases not be worth the money unless you get them for almost free, and are doing the work yourself.
And besides that, longtubes have gotten too cheap nowadays to ever warrant an excuse to get shorties unless you live in California.
The shorties vs. LT's argument still amuses me. If shorties worked so well, they'd be used a lot more often.
Fact: Shorties have been dyno proven to make around 8-15rwhp, and in most cases not be worth the money unless you get them for almost free, and are doing the work yourself.
And besides that, longtubes have gotten too cheap nowadays to ever warrant an excuse to get shorties unless you live in California.
10-27-2009, 01:59 PM
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Your post is misleading. The shorties did not make "43rwhp" by themselves.
The shorties vs. LT's argument still amuses me. If shorties worked so well, they'd be used a lot more often.
Fact: Shorties have been dyno proven to make around 8-15rwhp, and in most cases not be worth the money unless you get them for almost free, and are doing the work yourself.
And besides that, longtubes have gotten too cheap nowadays to ever warrant an excuse to get shorties unless you live in California.
The shorties vs. LT's argument still amuses me. If shorties worked so well, they'd be used a lot more often.
Fact: Shorties have been dyno proven to make around 8-15rwhp, and in most cases not be worth the money unless you get them for almost free, and are doing the work yourself.
And besides that, longtubes have gotten too cheap nowadays to ever warrant an excuse to get shorties unless you live in California.
A member on LS1GTO just got 378/375 WHP with shorties and mids, only other mod was CAI.He is a M6 LS2. Not too far off from most LT/tune guys. I think the mids are one of the biggest restrictions on the Goats.
Last edited by dlively11; 10-27-2009 at 02:21 PM.
10-27-2009, 02:20 PM
#11
Your ground clearance won't really change with LTs, unless you go with SLP LT headers. I hear they're pretty bad. I've never once scraped my pacesetter headers on anything. Now Y pipes, on the other hand, are a different story. The Pacesetter Y pipe offers great ground clearance. Any Y pipe meant for LT headers and has cats is going to be worse though.
I had some BBK shorties on an LT1 camaro. I never took it to the dyno but I wasn't really impressed with the gains. The install was nightmarish, as most of the work could only be performed from the top. I got a smokin deal on em used from ebay though... and was mainly concerned with keeping my stock cats.
The LS1 lt header install, on the other hand, could be done again in about 5 hours. Really easy install. Even un-tuned I felt a huge difference in the top end, well worth the $, time, and effort. Only down side to them is that you NEED poly or solid engine mounts. They're a PITA to install, but not a huge deal if you've got the headers out... plenty more room to work. The reason you need the mounts is because of the engine flex/banging Y pipe issues. Not fun. But poly mounts provide for a perminent fix and the car feels exactly the same from inside the cabin. People who claim there is a difference in the "feel" of the car are related to that fairy tale chick who could feel a pea under 19 matresses.
I say that if you've got to get elbow deep in some wiper cowl it might as well be for the most possible HP/TQ. You're also not going to get the benefit of the aftermarket Y pipe flowage either. You'd be sending your newly routed exhaust gasses right thru the same old cats (which probably have some age to them) and smallish size squished GM Y pipe.
Having had both I say LTs all the way! Not to mention, when you change your mind about how far you're going to be going with your car plans (heads/cam/nitrous/flux capacitor) you'll be more capable of supporting those mods and wont have to list a set of shorties on LS1tech parts for sale
I had some BBK shorties on an LT1 camaro. I never took it to the dyno but I wasn't really impressed with the gains. The install was nightmarish, as most of the work could only be performed from the top. I got a smokin deal on em used from ebay though... and was mainly concerned with keeping my stock cats.
The LS1 lt header install, on the other hand, could be done again in about 5 hours. Really easy install. Even un-tuned I felt a huge difference in the top end, well worth the $, time, and effort. Only down side to them is that you NEED poly or solid engine mounts. They're a PITA to install, but not a huge deal if you've got the headers out... plenty more room to work. The reason you need the mounts is because of the engine flex/banging Y pipe issues. Not fun. But poly mounts provide for a perminent fix and the car feels exactly the same from inside the cabin. People who claim there is a difference in the "feel" of the car are related to that fairy tale chick who could feel a pea under 19 matresses.
I say that if you've got to get elbow deep in some wiper cowl it might as well be for the most possible HP/TQ. You're also not going to get the benefit of the aftermarket Y pipe flowage either. You'd be sending your newly routed exhaust gasses right thru the same old cats (which probably have some age to them) and smallish size squished GM Y pipe.
Having had both I say LTs all the way! Not to mention, when you change your mind about how far you're going to be going with your car plans (heads/cam/nitrous/flux capacitor) you'll be more capable of supporting those mods and wont have to list a set of shorties on LS1tech parts for sale
10-27-2009, 02:23 PM
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Maybe I am missing something. The car picked up 43 WHP by adding the shorties on that setup compared to stock manifolds. What am I misreading? The more mods the larger the bottleneck is which this seems to really illustrate. Shorties made a huge differnce over stock mani on that setup.
10-27-2009, 03:34 PM
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My bad honestly it don't seem possible I would say unless the car was dyno pulled completely stock then you starting swapping out everything then put shorties on it and then put LT's on it. I'm not expert but most of the time alone you don't see 40+hp from just putting headers on unless your have some major cubes and some very expensive brand names and mods.
10-27-2009, 04:13 PM
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Your post is misleading. The shorties did not make "43rwhp" by themselves.
The shorties vs. LT's argument still amuses me. If shorties worked so well, they'd be used a lot more often.
Fact: Shorties have been dyno proven to make around 8-15rwhp, and in most cases not be worth the money unless you get them for almost free, and are doing the work yourself.
And besides that, longtubes have gotten too cheap nowadays to ever warrant an excuse to get shorties unless you live in California.
The shorties vs. LT's argument still amuses me. If shorties worked so well, they'd be used a lot more often.
Fact: Shorties have been dyno proven to make around 8-15rwhp, and in most cases not be worth the money unless you get them for almost free, and are doing the work yourself.
And besides that, longtubes have gotten too cheap nowadays to ever warrant an excuse to get shorties unless you live in California.
10-27-2009, 04:51 PM
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If that was the case then he only gained 17 TQ after putting on heads and a cam. The way I see it was this was a heads,cam intake car that they dynoed all three manifolds to compare. With all those mods the car is dying to breath. Just shows that the shorties do a pretty good job of letting it breath. Not as good as LTs but still much much better then stock. Stock mani was holding back 43 HP compared to the shorties.