Mavn

iTrader: (3)

👍👌👌👌👌👌

dreadpirateroberts

iTrader: (1)

i was under the impression the ls3 and ls7 MAF was the same unit.

as far as an airflow straightener, it may need it, it may not. It may have to do with there being bends in the intake tract or not. I don't run one and it is fine, but my intake is a fairly straight shot into the throttle body.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

basically, its all hogwash. If you don't tune, STFU with your opinion (not you specifically). To validate a proper response, you need to have tuned both. Not just speculate, you need first hand knowledge. For all you pro-Mafers, go wideband a stock tune, you might be surprised what you find out about your wonderful MAF. And VE isn't harder to tune either.....not even sure where yall come up with this crap.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

A stock tune is a hybrid tune and uses a blended VE/MAF below the RPM threshold for airflow calc value....above which it uses the MAF exclusively.....so GM determined that for steady state airflow the MAF was the better choice and the VE is ignored at WOT.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Absolutely, nobody is saying the MAF doesn't have merit. That's not the point I'm arguing. It's all the hearsay BS from people who don't actually tune. That info gets repeated and people become dumber. The more you learn about tuning, and tune yourself, the more ridiculous online "tuning" conversations become.....especially from the keyboard know it alls. Makes the real tuners not wanna share info honestly.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

That is completely fair. I feel the same way, but on the other side how plenty of people who have no idea just post up that a MAF is garbage and a restriction and to throw it out. Same thing with people who descreen a MAF claiming a restriction and how they gained HP, when in reality they skewed their entire MAF transfer function and are running leaner.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

True. My car had a descreened MAF when i bought it. I can't make solid comments about afr because i owned no WB at the time, and also did not tune anything myself. I will say it did "seem" to drive and tune fine until I went speed density, but i have no hard evidence of this. I originally did a SD tune simply because it was easier/quicker. I later learned to tune MAFs, and i saw no great advantage, especially when trying to go as fast as possible for the least $. My 6.0 DBW Yukon i kept the Maf and tuned it, mostly because it has the IAT built in, and I didnt want to change it/wire it whatever. It drives nice also, so I'm not anti-MAF. I think the Maf provides better/quicker correcting data (trims) then SD with narrowbands alone. But, will you ever actually notice it, or is it enough to warrant keeping it? Big question that only experience can answer.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

I can't remember if it was Greg Banish DVD or book, I feel like it was the book where he walked through exactly that scenario and how it skewed the transfer function. On a mostly stock vehicle, it probably doesn't matter....but on something that's raced it could be the difference between knocking and not. It's interesting what you said about how easy it is to tune, as I've always felt tuning the MAF curve is way easier and quicker than a VE table. Just different strokes for different folks I guess. Also agree about the MAF being quicker...I've tried to explain that to others who talk about throttle response being faster with the VE table. There's no "extra math" with the MAF unlike the VE that has multiple variables that have to be computed to reach a g/sec or lb/min of airflow. MAF XXXXXHz=XYZ airflow. But this all assumes its tuned right anyways

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

I think the descreening is fine if you plan to tune it descreened. What I dont like is tuning it one way and driving it another. I think that's the core of the issue. You're right, VE does require hitting more cells very obviously. But anyone who tunes knows you are only actually tuning a potion of them, probably less then 50%, because there are so many extreme ends that you simply never see in normal use. What I like about VE, and it should be done anyway, is that it doesn't rely on a sensor, other then MAP. I know MAFs, and fuel injection in general, has proven reliable, but I've had MAFs fail, and I dont really trust them. To me, it's one less thing to fail. Add in, less restricted airflow, less money spent, and lots like the throttle response of VE. It just seems like a win win to me. Last week I started with a completely junk tune. Ve was way off everywhere. The car wouldn't idle, drive, anything. With some idle time, and foot braking in the driveway (20 mins) i had it driveable. First couple flashes it wouldn't light off the turbo. 20mins later it was going into boost but AFRs were a tad rich. 20 mins later it was safe to drive @ 12 psi of boost. All the while between pulls hitting the drive-ability cells. So an hour of tuning and it was pretty on point, it's just not rocket science.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

Completely agree with "I think the descreening is fine if you plan to tune it descreened. What I dont like is tuning it one way and driving it another. I think that's the core of the issue." And thats exactly the problem, most pull the screen without a retune.

I think you need IAT as well as part of the VE equation (can't recall the equation from memory) so that's another sensor. I do in general agree that MAF's can fail like any other sensor. I've ran an LS7 maf up to 750whp and the car drove like stock so it really just comes down to whichever path you go, make sure its tuned correctly. Plenty of bad tuners out there.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Yeah, and as a basically self taught tuner, i really don't understand the issue with bad tuners. I guess lets put it in perspective. I originally had an out of town guy tuning my car. Literally nobody here tuned locally unless you knew them on a personal level.....So you could imagine getting retunes was a pain when the tuner is 3 hours away. Maybe 7 years ago I bought hptuners, and i had a night job with hours to scour the internet. I read and i read and i read. I put in the work to learn this. At the end of the day, if you have a good mechanical knowledge base, moving into tuning is just simply putting in the time and pushing yourself to learn. Once you get the right info, tuning is fun, and pretty easy. During the time i was learning i had a local guy that was doing the same. We would hang out over a few cold beers and some bbq and have an hour long + convo about tuning. Just picking each others brain, me asking him things I had been wondering but hadn't seen myself yet. It helps to have a friend like that. He got a lay off from work, started tuning for money, and literally blew up. He is booked with as much work as he can stand. He is so busy, he sends me stuff he doesn't have time for. So win/win for me, as i get to make some profit and helps people get tunes in a more timely fashion since he is booked up. It's rewarding, and allows you a ton of freedom and i recommend anyone serious about modding learn it. That being said, I take pride in what I do, and even in the beginning I was making cars drive really well. That's why I'm so confused how tuners can be so bad. I do remember a few conversations though where he went through other people's tunes and could spot the junk a mile away. You shouldn't be tuning if you can't put in the work to learn it correctly.

G Atsma

That post was a good read! You lay it out pretty well, without any BS. You pretty much say, "If I can do it, why can't all the half-*** "tuners" out there?" Well that's because they are after a quick buck and don't care who they screw over to get it. They do a half-*** job, shove it out the door, and collect their money. And if those "tuners" have a REAL good BS line, those suckers come back for more!
Thank you for that!

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Again, i really don't tune for money. But i do take jobs here and there. I generally stick to 411 PCMs. If I don't have to wideband (say stockish motor), they just want some trans/emissions/vats stuff or DOD delete on newer trucks, I generally just charge a little over credit price. Then they tell friends, next thing you know you're well known and getting steady business....again their aren't many tuners here. But these people trust that you know what you're doing, they don't know the repercussions of your changes in the tune, so they are depending on your knowledge. No one should take that for granted.

G Atsma

No, I know you do it on the side for beer money or whatever. Thing is, you learned how to do it, and take pride in doing what you know RIGHT! If only some of the "pros" could follow suit.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

That's legit. I'm similar, self taught with help from joecar on EFI Live and Green Banish book's and DVD. Lots and lots of testing on my own stuff before I would go near someone else's stuff. I also don't do it for a living, just selectively on the side and typically put WAY more time on a tune than I get back in cash. I have examples of some of the junk that "top tooners" put out as a full blown tune and it's just sad.

G Atsma

I think the ideal situation is if you know a tuner personally AND know how good he really is by seeing personally the results of his efforts.
Barring that, having a friend who KNOWS tuning and would help you out, thru friendship would be great, and would be worth offering to pay a good price for his time and effort. Whether he accepts it or not is of course totally up to him.
Either of the above scenarios would get positive results IMHO. Seems obvious, but not always what actually happens.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Oh ive had people over and got their hptuners setup right for them, explain some basics, and got them going on cleaning up their VE table on their own. I did not charge them, I helped them to tune their own car, because i saw the desire to learn with some pieces of the puzzle missing. Passing on correct knowledge is something I learned from, and something i feel obligated to those willing to learn it.

G Atsma

I love that mindset! Hat's off to you! Ever thought of moving to California for if/when I get a project going/?? Just kidding man, I would not wish this state on any newcomers...
Have a good one man!

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

Just say no to CARB!!!!😂

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

My biggest fear is, with the chokehold coming down, and lawsuits getting worse, i believe hptuners may be under fire soon. Damn shame too.