Max H/C/I/V set up or $1500ish more for 440CID resleeved LS shortblock?
 

So, I am thinking about getting the best of the best aftermarket heads, cam, intake, lifters, roller rockers, etc. After putting together a list, I am probably around $1500 away from a Darton sleeved LS 454 shortblock (4.185 bore x 4.125 stroke) and new cam.

My thoughts:
SHORTBLOCK
If I am not happy, new HCIV is way easier than a new motor.
All heads are now options.
Sky is the limit. The motor can't get any bigger.
Will probably have close to the same HP, but more TQ

HCIV
If I am not happy, I have to get a new shortblock. That is a lot more work than HCIV.
All shortblocks will be options
Could go forced induction, if I want. Very doubtful.
I will likely be happy with the results of this.

SO..

What is your opinion and why:
- Best of the best heads, cam, intake, and valvetrain for around 470RWHP?
OR
- Darton LS 454 and a new cam with my stock LS1 heads, LSX 90, and 1 7/8 headers?

Problem with those choices is the Ls1 heads will not be a good choice for compression. You'll either have to build the bottom end to get compression down or deal with overly high compression until you do new heads.

Generally I would say if you are already thinking displacement do the bigger short block. To help with getting a moderate compression ratio and not ending up with massively dished pissed ons, maybe get a pair of 317 heads cheap. Or a pair of L92 heads and a ls3 intake. Then when you save up, you can get the top end you want.

If you end up in the low 12's for compression you can cam to bring DCR into range and daily drive on pump gas. Alternately, if E85 is readily available, then use the stock Ls1 heads, but you will be married to E85 until you build the new top end.

Is your Sig the current set up? 1999 Trans Am - Stock shortblock, heads, water pump, shocks, and springs, S60 4.10 rear

Your TA has an excellent rear end, that's capable of handling the big torque that goes with the LS 440. My tame 416 blows the tires away with 4.10's and 1st is sort of useless. If you go LS 440 it might be worth considering a gear change at some point.

I'd go with LS 440 and top the idea top end as time and money allow. LS3 top end is pretty affordable. $500 cores and $1,000 for one of the top shops to breath a little CNC love on them.

HCI LS1 / LS6 are fun and a good choice but the bigger LS's are a lot of fun to drive :)

Arizona Flex-fuel (E54) is at a station that I pass everyday. I intend to have a Flex-fuel sensor and tune so I can run any combination of Ethanol.

stock ls1/6 heads will choke the crap out of a 440. Better off getting stock ls3 heads and an intake and "sacrifice lowend" since the 440 will have stupid lowend anyways.

I also have a mini-tub kit that will be going on. I am planning 345/40r17 drag radials. If I have traction issues, then I will have to think about a gear change.

New heads will be out of the budget. That will easily add another $2k considering heads will also mean valvetrain and intake.

I wouldn't bother with the 440 then. Take the money and go boosted on the current motor.

I am by far not the most knowledgeable in this forum, and I know it isn't a listed option, but my old school Vortech supercharger is putting me a tad over 500 RWHP. So for the money and ease of install, why not go FI?

I need long life too (that's why I am stopping at 4" stroke). I don't like FI on a motor not designed for FI.

That's simply not doing enough research. Plenty of ways to keep a stock LS alive, and thats assuming you don't pick up a 5.3 or 4.8 dirt cheap. I never saw a power goal, but anything under 600whp is easy on an LS.

I don't want FI. I'd want an NA car. Just personal preference.

Sell your running LS1 engine and do a 416 with LS3 heads/intake/cam. Problem solved. Resleeved stroker motors trying to make big power n/a are expensive undertakings.... Ask me how I know ;)

I understand, not everyone wants to go fast and have better driveability :jest:

Go 440.
Sell your current parts like the engine heads, intake and run stock LS3 heads and intake for now. You can find them for a low cost and they work well. Have the LS3 heads cleaned and check and be slap them on.
That will give you remove to grow and that way you do not have to start all the way over if you want to go bigger one day. If you get the MAX top end for a LS1 that might restrict you later on a bigger engine.

Right! lol You could turbo it and replace the engine whether it needs it or not every winter for the next 10 years and still spend less then the 440ci woodoo engine that's gonna struggle to make what a 5.3L on 15lbs makes.

OP not to further emphasize the point, having seen your other threads, but logically boost is the better option. Stock motor with a good, conservative tune and moderate boost will get you where you want to be power wise very reliably.

Personal anecdote, as shown by the sig I went big cubes for a few personal choice reasons. Brother in law threw the Huronspeed turbo kit on a stock 346. Granted my cam is too big, but his is more streetable, gets better gas mileage, was easier for the tuner and cost half as much...oh I made 1 more hp on the dyno (but less torque).

I'd have no qualms about boosting my SS one day and that's my daily.

Big cubes are cool and unique, I'll give you that and say I like having a 454 in a street car. But if you're going to do the 440 just bite the debt bullet temporarily and at least put some economical LS3 heads on there so it's not choked off. Or see if you can save money elsewhere by going with say, an LS3 based 416 (4" stroke) rather than a resleeved motor and then put decent heads on the 416.

Slight change in thoughts.. Since the Darton sleeves are longer than stock, it seems that a 4.125" stroke is perfectly safe. So... 4.185" bore X 4.125" stroke for a 454 CID short block.

If all you want is 470rwhp, I wouldn't buy a sleeved shortblock. That's very expensive for very limited returns.

HCI @ 470 isn't going to drive like stock. And takes a lot of attention to detail.

I think the best NA goal is to get a 6L truck block and throw a 408 stroker kit in it or goto someone like Thompson and get a nice shortblock for a good price. Then add something like the PRC 247 heads to it and a good mild cam and make 500/500 with good streetability. Getting to 600+ NA needs LS7 heads and larger bores (resleeved or LS7 blocks--costly). But the cost isn't really worth an extra 25-50HP. It's a very diminished return. And guess what? A 408 with like a 239/247 cam will run mid 10s @ 130 all day in a full weight car.

But, a Turbo @ 470 is very low boost and very much stock like drivability. Cheapest way forward is with a Huron kit deal. If the car is mostly stock, stick a mild turbo cam, valve springs, and a 7875 VS turbo with Siemens 60lbs injectors and a Walbro 255 fuel pump kit. You can do 500/500 with that (actually you can push to 700/700 if your fuel system is upgraded enough) and it'll last a long time and be very fun. Shouldn't overheat if you get everything ceramic coated and wrapped.

Other option is a P1SC Supercharger kit. Little more money but can do 550-600rwhp with a mild blower cam.

I think what you need to do is set a budget then figure out what gets you there (500rwhp, $5k budget, stock drivability, longevity, etc). Then do an AoA against all the options (what we do in engineering trade studies - set your evaluation criteria and your weighting and score it). I bet an NA Superstroker with stock heads comes in pretty low during that comparison.

I was just using that as a comparison for what I think a Best-of-the-Best H/C/I/V package would get me.

Stock heads is just for now. My end goal is to have an "NA Superstroker" (had to use that!) with a mild cam....equivalent to an LS1 with a 224/224 or maybe 228/228 cam, and LS3 or LS7 heads. An "NA Superstroker" has always been my end goal. I was just thinking of doing the max H/C/I/V for now, then getting the Darton sleeved shortblock down the road, then going from there. But that was before I put the list of parts for the H/C/I/V together.

I really don't want to go Turbo or SC. The engine bay is already tight. I don't want to add more stuff.

Perfect....more cubes to choke and more money to spend. You need to research more. Blower doesn't take up all the engine bay space and will give you plenty of power.

I missed the 470hp part lol that is too easy to obtain and no fancy parts needed. My ported head and cammed LS3 made more then that on a mustang dyno. All this talk about 440ci, 454ci and stuff I figured the goal was well over 600whp.

The 470HP is just what I figured a Best of the Best H/C/I/V package would get me. It was just a reference. I am sure a 454 with LS1 heads and a mild cam will be more than that and even more torque. I cannot afford a short block and H/C/I so it is either 454 short block or top shelf H/C/I/V. The only options will be
- 454 with current LS1 heads, current valvetrain, current LSX 90 intake, current 102mm TB
OR
- Current stock LS1 shortblock with top shelf heads, custom cam, lifters, pushrods, roller rockers, port matched LSXR 102,

I say add another option... sell the LS1 to fund new engine. I tell people that all the time looking to go faster NA. They want to pay for parts and labor for a DoD Delete, cam swap , valvetrain, etc.. I'm like sell your entire engine and use the money you were going to spend on mods for a new larger engine that actually works. Guys easily get $1500+ for aluminum short blocks, and they were going to drop an easy $2000+ modifying it. Now you have at least $3,500+ towards your goal to do it right the first time. You can almost always find a 416 or 427 shortblock under $5000, throw some LS3 heads on it and be well well above your goal for not that much money. Or you can buy a $500 5.3 and a $400 Chinese turbo and make double your goal, either way its exceeded for minimal budget.

Personally I had an LSX454, neat but don't think I would go that route again. You can make damn near as much power with a 416 or 427, rev faster, etc and be cheaper.

I am not looking for minimal budget. I am looking for long lifetime. Thus the Darton sleeves instead of an LSX. I'm not buying a used motor either.
There is no way in hell that I will get $1500 for a used 1999 LS1 shortblock. Hawks sells LS1 longblocks for $1300.
I will not purchase a stock LS block with a stroke over 4". Maybe an LS2 shortblock is under $5K, but I don't think you will find anything bigger, unless it is from "Jim-Bob's Moters n Fishin"

454? LS7 heads, even stock.

Sell all your cathedral shit and grab some used stock LS7 heads, LS7 intake and a 92mm TB just to get you going.

that is exactly what I am considering right now. I just don't think I will be able to afford stock heads, and LSXR 102.

BTW, nice Slipknot avatar

Grab a sniper for like $500. You will be close enough and running while you save up for the ITB you know you want.

FWIW I seen shafiroff racing in NY has sleeved ls454 short block $6k

Edit -- LS next not sleeved.

LS Next/SHP is a better block.

Now I have to go look at Shafiroff again. Their prices are very good. And their quality is excellent. And their prices include freight.

Doesn't the LS Next have Gray iron sleeves? Aren't the sleeves stock LS length?

What about the LSR block? I think that has Ductile iron sleeves. Anyone know the length of those sleeves. That would be around $1500 more than the Darton sleeved LS at Texas Speed, so I probably can't swing it, but might be an option.

Please read tbe whole thread before trying to use clever insults.

Not worth the posts, he obviously knows better. 454 Darton and stock cathedrals FTW!!!

again.. Read the whole thread please.

Again, stop asking for input if you aren't actually open to the input from people who've already gone down the road and have real world experience.

So what do you know that ALL the people here who have actually "been there AND done that" somehow missed? Is your situation somehow unique enough that you need to spend way more than necessary to do what many others have done for a lot less??

Under $5k? When did you buy it 2008?

Their site lists a 416 at $8k now. Apparently, it's assembled by Thor or something.

Maybe I didn't explain it well. Let me try this again:

This all started because I was looking at a total Mamo top end for my stock LS1. Everything other than short block and throttle body. That would max out my LS1. I figured that would be around 470RWHP, and be around $7k. At that point, the motor is maxed, and WHEN I decide that I want more (eventually, I will want more), I will HAVE to get a new short block (If I have to get a new block, I might as well go as big as possible so I have plenty of options in the future. Thus a 4.185 bore 440, 451,454). So, $7K now, and later $8k for a new block, and more when I decide that I want bigger heads.

Then I started thinking, if I get a new shortblock and new cam now, I will probably end up with about the same power, but more torque, and I will have plenty of options for the future. I can probably get more compression too (I am going with Flex-fuel so high compression will not be an issue). So, around $8500. When I deiced that I want more, I have a ton of options. Around $3000 up to $8000.

So, I figure that I will spend less in the long run if I get the block now. $11,500 - $16000 if I get the short block now versus $15,000 - 22,000 if I get the top end now, short block later, and end up wanting more.

I never had a goal of 470RPHP. That was just the reference. My end goal is a 4.185 bore motor, and what ever heads/cam I end up being happy with.

Just stating the obvious here, but those are astronomical numbers you're throwing around for a 20 year old car. To get to maybe 600rwhp.

I think a 408+aftermarket heads for $8k for 550rwhp (depending on how aggressive you go) is a much saner bet.

Or just going with a JY 5.3L and turbo kit + fuel system for $7k... and making you know, 800rwhp. The turbo car would be worth more on resell, FWIW.

You think that 600 RWHP is all I would ever get from a "Superstroker" 454? I thought Mamo LS7 heads did more than that on a stock LS7 shortblock.

I never considered a turbo car, since I live in AZ, and the summers are 115 - 120 degrees. This is a daily driver car. I always thought heat would be an issue. I also assumed there would be a lot of fab work to make it all fit. I think I would still want Ductile iron sleeves for a turbo motor.

Exactly, all of this is preconceived ideas and not much research. I'm in FL and it's not only hot but humid. Friend DDs his iron block 5.3 turbo car with AC. Done turbo, blower, and NA. A blower car fits your needs perfectly. Keeps the engine space your after, there is no oiling to worry about for drilling and tapping the pan, will work and live forever on a stock short block, and used D1sc kits are found on here between 4 and 5k all the time. Oh and a D1sc will make 550whp in its sleep and make 800whp should you build a motor later on.

For now, I want to stick to talking about NA. If turbo becomes an option, I'll start a thread about that later.

Even though the post did not suggest a turbo. GLW your build.

You've been given advice by multiple people. Take it.

Thread is closed.