J-Rod

Ok, first off let me explain that this post is not meant to bash anyone on this forum or any of the other forums, as it involves more than few folks on this forum. But, it is posted as a warning, and as a heads up when dealing with used parts.

Lets go back to the very beginning. This al started on Corveteforum. PaceThis who sells a ton of parts on Corvetteforum sold a set of bare LS6 heads to Neptune Bill. I don't have the add, so I don't know how these heads were portrayed (new, used, etc). I don't know if they were sold as Brand New bare heads, or what. Anyhow, I think Bill bought them for around $1000 for his 436in motor.

When Bill got them, he took them to his machinist/header porter. My understanding was this person told Bill he would prefer not to use a used head and told Bill to buy a set of new castings. I think his machinist was concerned since the heads appeared to be repaired.

I don't know what happened between Bill and Pace this, if an attempt was made to retrun them to PaceThis, etc... So, I can't comment on that. Perhaps Bill or PaceThis can.

Anyhow, the heads were put up for sale in the Parts For Sale section, and I bought them for $600 + shipping.

I had the heads shipped directly to my buddies machine shop where I do my own work. As soon as I unpacked them I noticed that the heads had been spray painted with aluminum paint, the box they cam from was from a cylinder head repair shop, and that the heads had obviously been welded on.

These heads were obviously not a new head, and I wasn't going to put them on my motor.

I called Bill back and he was apologetic and I think he was upset since I think he felt like he had been deceived when he bought the heads. I think he was also not happy that he at this point felt like he had just lost $1000, and that the heads were junk.

He explained to me that didn't know they were repaired heads either. Bill immediately offfered to compensate me for not only my $600 but also for the shipping charges. So, I have no quarrel with Bill. Bill isn't a hardcore internal engine guy, so it would not suprise me if he didn't know the heads were re-welded heads. In fact Bill went out of his way to make sure that I was completely satisfied and made sure I was completely compensated. I have nothing but good things to say about Bill, and would do business with him without hesitation in the future.

I posted an add on ls1tech for the heads where I disclosed that the heads were repaired heads. They were bought by Scott Jantzer at Jantzer Performance.
https://ls1tech.com/threads/showflat...rue#Post193841


Scott then sold the heads to CamM.
https://ls1tech.com/threads/showflat...rue#Post560260

CamM then traded them to LGM to @ LGM, fo rLGM to use as a core. In exchange, they built him a rollcage for his car.

LGM then sent the heads off and spent as ton of money getting the heads ported. The heads were then bolted onto a car and almost immediately dropped a seat. The heads did no damage to the car (fortunately), and were pulled off the car. So now Lou has a very expensive set of paperweights.


So, you may ask yourself what was the deal with these heads. The simple fact of the matter is that after a bit of checking, a set of heads like this is from one source. A dealership.

When a car overheats often times the heads are replaced. If they are, the dealerships often cut the sections out between the cylinders to make the heads un-usable. They are supposed to be scrapped. In this case this set of heads was most likely obtained this way, a poor repair job was made, and they were sold.

What the problem with re-welding a head, nothing if done correctly. But, when a head is overheated, and welded improperly the aluminum in the head will often times change its temper and it properties a bit. The other thing that happens is the seats and guides may move around and become loose. The lesson in this is that they can fall out on you. If that happens it can be real bad. In fact it can be catostrophic.

Am I saying used heads are bad. No
Am I saying you shouldn't repaired heads. No
Am I specifically blaming anyone. No, as I don't have all the facts from before I got the heads.

All I am trying to do is educate some folks. If you buy a set of heads, and in between the cylinders has been welded up, you may have bought a similar set of heads. Also if the heads are all covered in paint, it might be a set of repaired heads. Shops often do this instead of cleaning up the heads properly. It makes them look nice. If you buy something liek this it might be a wise idea to have them inpsected by a competent shop before you bolt them on.

On a side note, I think thse heads MAY be able to be saved with the installation of new guides and new larger seats. Installing a bigger seat (for say a 2.055 valve will allow you to ensure there is a good interference fit. Same with the guides.

I talked with Lou about these heads the other day by coincidence, and he mentoined that because of this he will only take the heads off a customers car rather than risk a core of unknown quality. After a bit of dectective work on how these heads have made their way around, I wanted to post this story to make folks aware.

Again, this post shouldn't be construed to paint any members ina negative light. Its only to educate folks...

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Great info, J-Rod. I appreciate all your posts. They're very thorough and informative.

robertbartsch

I've heard of several head porters that will not accept a head as a core if it has been cleaned up after it has been removed from the car....

Now I know why!

robertbartsch

I've heard of several head porters that will not accept a head as a core if it has been cleaned up after it has been removed from the car....

Now I know why!

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Yeah I have heard of heads like this, typically used LS6 heads.

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

I'm just surprised you were able to keep track of these heads through all those transactions . Good info. Thanks.

CamM

Great detective work, J-Rod.

absolute speed

This is a good post for guys to be aware of, alot of times it is hard to tell if a head has lost its temper, it doesnt take much overheating for them to go soft and when that happens they are junk. You cannot even install new seats and guides they will gett pounded in the soft aluminum and fall out.
A few months back I had a great Idea to weld up 6.0l heads to form ls6 chambers just to turn the prototype head into a junk soft test head. The gen3 heads weld very nice but cannot take the heat from welding so the existing metal was soft and weak even though the new seats had a tight press fit we knew they would loosen up. I had them sent out to get them retempered but they were still no way near factory specs so I threw that whole idea out the window, I didnt want to risk a seat or guide falling out in anyones engine

So its a good idea if you have a set of cores or used heads to get them checked by a reputable machine shop

wrencher

iTrader: (2)

Your right, a GM shop I was at for years we'd removed tons of drivetrain parts.(various resons)
They where unusable/unwanted by any anyone.
These parts would end up in the back of the shop in the scrap heap.
Many shops sell their aluminumn & steel scrap.
Problem is that the pick-ups are few & far between.
Then comes in the independant "scraper".
They would come to the shop at off hours & "steal" what was laying out there.
Those are the guy's sellin' this stuff to repair.
We would get pissed because the procedes for scrap would find it's way to us.(it wasnt much though)
The people we sell it to melt it down for the base metal.
( so we're told)
Hence the cutting & hacking on these parts.
I know I thrown quite a few out back & made 'em bounce a couple of times, I wouldnt want that head on my car !