Critique my H/C combo and please help suggest me a better cam
 

Car is a 1998 Camaro SS, A4

Mods are:
FRA mod
KN filter
Lid
85 mm MAF
90mm TB
Ported LS2 intake
Patriot 97-98 stage 2 CNC ported heads ( flow 292 intake, 216 exhaust @ .600 lift
Thunder racing cam 227/227 640/640 114 cam
1 3/4 stainless longtube headers
2.5 true duals, x pipe, dumped
160 thermostat
25% UD pulley
Fuddle 3300, 1.9 STR stall
3.73 gears in a 10 bolt
Rear tires are 315/35/17 nittos. Stock fuel injectors

Dyno was done at Vector Motorsports (across the street from Katech) on their Mustang dyno.

Numbers are:
370 RWHP@ 6500 and 321 torque @ 5400 UNLOCKED
390 RWHP @6600 and 346 torque @ 5200 LOCKED

Car is mostly a street car, sees some track time. It runs really good from a dead stop, but from a roll it isnt the greatest. I was thinking about upgrading the stall to a 3500 and 1.8 STR but I dont want gas mileage and driveability to suffer.

Based upon the cam I have now, ( Thunder racing cam 227/227 640/640 114) Is there a better cam that would give me a better low end and higher RWHP numbers? It would be nice to make the power at a lower RPM lets say 6200 vs the 6600 I am reving to now.

Im thinking new cam numbers of:
228/232 625/625 114

Would that be a better cam for me?

Vector did tell me that their stage 2 cam would get me to about 420 RWHP. Anyone know the specs on that?

Whats the specs of the vector stage 2 cam?

He didnt tell me, and I searched the net and could find no specs for it

Different set-up here, but with my 228/232 110+2 I am making peak HP at ~6000 Rpm's. It holds it to very well to ~6400. It also kicks in quite well at the lower/middle rpm's.

I am hitting ~42 IVC on that cam.

Perhaps that will give you a general idea in regards to picking the right valve events.

Good luck in your research.

..WeathermanShawn..

look at my setup and copy it...

fuddle has to go, same with the ported ls2, cam has huge lift for a street car on both intake and exhaust...

ls6 intake, mid to low 230 cam, ss3600 stall, ftra and you are will really wake up

Get rid of intake and heads imo. Otherwise port the heads, FAST 92/92, more SCR and a larger cam will do the job for you. Junk the Fuddle also and put a YANK in it.

Seems like guys are already thinking like I am... Junk the Fuddle and the Patriot heads. I would suggest a Yank SS 3600 and TFS As Cast 3.90 Cylinder Heads... Camshaft isnt bad and would be the last thing I would change in your combo.

Why did the tuner, Vector tell me that the heads are ok, and stated the cam is holding me back from the power I want? They advised a better cam?

Thunder racing recommended the cam I have right now to me. How come I do not see anyone running this cam?

1st thing I would do it get a new converter. Sell the LS2 intake and go to a LS6 and P&P TB(Fast 92/92 if you have the bank). Get some nice heads (TFS as cast like Ron mentioned would be nice). If after doing those things the car doesn't feel noticeably stronger and make more power I would start looking at a new cam.

Who at Vector tuned your car? Your cam isnt holding you back. The intake and those heads. Hows the car run?

What is wrong with heads that flow 300 at .600 lift? Why should he spend his money I think a better intake and new converter is all he needs something around 4000.. I also just noticed no injector upgrade.. My car is at 99 percent with only a cam and 349 rwhp

2002 C5
241 castings heads 305 @ 600
232/238 600/600 109 LSA
Yank 3400 stall 3.15 C5 diff
RPM Stage 2 4l60E
American Racing headers
American Racing 3" X 2 1/2" "X" pipe
36lbs Injectors
LS2 ported intake
85MM Maf
90MM port and polished TB
After market fuel Rails
Vararam VRV2 intake
and tuned to 2500 ft altitude. About 420 - 430 RWHP Street tuned
Next week a Dyno WOT tune and a swap in rear diff to 3.42.
That should give you a good starting point and I am very happy with it. This is on a stock LS1 rotating assembly with about 80K on the clock.

That cam on a 116LSA made 371 with STOCK manifolds in my 05 CTS-V. With a set of ET 215's that cam has made 435-450 in auto cars with 3200 Vig's. Also had an 04 GTO make 425 through a TCI3500 with that exact cam and a set of AFR 205's...

Shane

Well as it looks like from the consensus of this thread that most of you think the Fuddle converter should go.

Are they really that bad?

Look at any one of us using an automatic and its either a Yank or a Vigi that we use that should give you an idea about Fuddle. I don't know any of the guys in the any other forums using Fuddle.

That converter may have a hand in lowering the dyno numbers but not really sure if it would lose a whole lot when "locked". The LS2 intake could be part of the problem but in ported form they seem to produce okay numbers anyway. The 3.73 gears may zap up to 10hp I've read though, that would give you 400 even with 3.23's which is good for autos but that cam should make a little more locked.

I would suspect that those heads are where your holding back power. They may have been good back in 97-98 but thats over 10 years ago, head porting tech has come a long way since then. The low torque also makes me want to think it's the heads.

I would expect those numbers with your whole setup only with stock 241/853 heads.

His heads do not flow 300 at .600. A set of TFS heads should flow in the 320 range at .600.

Since you already have a 90m tb I would look into getting a Fast intake. Look for a used one maybe if you can't afford new. I'd also junk the Fuddle converter and get one from Circle D or Yank. Something with a 3600 stall and 2.5 str, that would really wake up the car.

Don't forget circle d :thumb:

He posted the flow numbers 292\212 that looks pretty good to me.

If only flow numbers would tell us how much power a head can make.. :secret2:

the track tells it all, so i would suggest he sees what the car does.

Junk ass heads and super inefficent converter are killing your combo.

Nothing wrong at all with patriot heads but those 97-98 heads they make are 67-68cc chambers that does nothing to bump your compression and have a massive intake port that kills the velocity of the head. I believe gunnar told me they were a 237 CC intake runner, which is grossly oversize for a stock shortblock car That was 3 years back when I had those same heads in my garage. Since then every company even patriot have heavily revised there CNC programs. LSX technology has made HUGE strides over the last 2-5 years

So my patriots should be better? Ls6's 59cc bougth in 07, ?

One thing i noticed, you got stock injector w/all those modds, arent they maxed out?

yea those ones will kick ass there based off a killer CNC'd 243 casting and have welded up chambers for added compression.
you could see anywhere from 30-45RWHP by bolting those up.


There in my opinion, the best head patriot has to offer

i also totally missed that you have an LS2 intake choking that car down. while a nice ported fast setup would net solid gains for you, even an ls6 would be an improvement over the ls2 intake.

I bought these heads on my car from Patriot in summer 2008

The stock injectors were not maxed out.

I think the car will run good at the track. It does great from a dig. It just kinda sucks from a roll. My old heads/cam LT1 Trans Am convertible felt significantly faster from a roll.

They have not done the welded up chambers for quite some time now.....like several years......

most automagics are not very good from a roll. Your converter is not going to lock from a roll and it is not very efficient.

If the car runs good from a stop, enjoy it. IF you want to roll race, put a 6spd in it.

So based upon this, would I gain from a cam like a 228/232 625/625 114 ?

Thanks

I'd listen to Ron. Its not really your cam, its partially the heads/cam being unmatched on lift/flow. Your cam has too much lift for my taste. I'd really like to see you run some TFS 215's on that b*tch with a cam that has lift numbers no higher then .625, which coincidenatally matches the PEAK flow of the TFS 215's.

Been told by some Big names, Select your heads, match your cam to the characteristics of the heads, and add the rest (intake, exhaust etc)

Again listen to Ron@Vengeance, he was trying to point you in the right direction. He sure got me straightened out.

Start with one thing at a time. Get an LS6 Intake of ebay, or get a Fast 90, since you have a 90mm throttle body already. If you dont want to change your heads, but are still not happy with the power you have. Get a nitrous system and put that on there. 422 Shipped from HSW. That will fix any power problems.

If you have the money? Get a Yank, Better Heads, a Fast Intake and T/B. And, I would imagine a 30- 40 hp gain over your current setup. Good Luck

Don't know if anyone else touched on this but how well does the ported ls2 intake stack up against a stock ls6 intake. If you haven't already i'd bump up to a fast/fast.

I am still running the stock push-rods. Could the stock pus-rods be holding me back at all? Do I need a different length? :confused:

I think your missing the point everyone is trying to make. You are making the right numbers for what your combo is. Getting more power requires replacing some poorly chosen parts(based on what you were expecting out of it). As stated you need a ls6 intake or fast and different heads. the cam is not going to make up enough for the inefficiency of the intake and heads.

for more power get rid of those heads (10 year old technology) an intake (little to no gain over LS1 intake on LS1 engine) $300 gets you an LS6 intake used on this site.

That cam is strong and proven. It is NOT the week point on your setup.

for performance you need a Vigilante, Yank, or Circle D converter. I had a VIG 3200 (stalled around 3500 on the street) and it was perfectly well manored for a DD. However to maximize the capability of your cam i would go 3600+.

I really dont think your tuner/builder knows enough about these motors to help you.

Well I just ran this car at the track...... Went to Lapeer drag-way (prolly the worst dragstrip in MI)/ Temp was about 65 deg.

It rained a little bit when I was there. The first run I spun so bad I just coasted to the end. The next 3 runs were consistant but not very good :(

Run 1 / Run 2 / Run 3

60 ft 2.1 2.09 2.05
1/4 ET 13.0 12.92 12.90
MPH no MPH 106.5 106.9

Like I said it rained there. Car does have suspension mods. 17 PSI in the nitto drag radials.

I'm not worried about the times at all cause of the traction issues, but isnt that 106 MPH pretty weak for a 390 RWHP H/C/I/E car? :confused:

Converter, converter, converter...

I have seen 7-10 mph from the right converter. I have a customer with a 99 SS running 11.50's at 119 with that cam and a custom PTC 3500 converter. STOCK heads and FAST 90/90. Dyno'd 399 on a Dynojet.


Shane

I don't know why everyone is telling you to get an LS6 intake. I thought that ported LS2's made just as much power as an LS6. Dyno numbers don't mean everything either - we need some track times (when it's dry) so we can really see what kind of power it really makes. Interesting post earlier in the thread about those heads having a 237cc intake port...that seems way too big for a 346 IMO.

Wow, the 98 PP stage 2s are 237cc..interesting. I have these heads on my setup too, my numbers also seem on the low side. Im running a VRX5 with an LS6 intake through a 9" making 390/370.

how was the a/f ratio bc i see the injectors could be a week point?

^good point - what was the DC of these stock injectors on the dyno? I didn't think it was a good idea to run stock LS1 injectors on a H/C/I car.

according to post #26 they arent maxed out which i find hard to believe on a H/C/I car

Yes, the Tuner told me the stock injectors were not maxed out. Remember the 98' LS1 has 28 LB injectors stock. I found specs on the 97-98 Patroit heads:

Combustion Chamber: 67cc
Intake Runner: 220cc
Exhaust Runner: 67cc
Intake Valve: 2.02"
Exhaust Valve: 1.57"
Max. Valve Spring Lift: 0.650"
Spring Pressure Closed: 135 lbs. @ 1.800"
Spring Pressure Open: 375 lbs. @ 1.090"
Retainer Material: Titanium
Valve Seal Material: Viton
Valve Guide Material: Manganese Bronze
Valve Job: 5-angle


So the intakes are 220 cc

https://www.patriot-performance.com/...&cat=36&page=1

I just ran the car at the track again.... Same low 106 MPH....

This time I ran at Milan dragway (much better than Lapeer)


Run 1 Run 2
60ft: 1.76 1.93
1/8 ET: 7.8 8.1
1/8 MPH: 87.5 87.1
1/4 ET: 12.40 12.76
1/4 MPH: 106.8 106.3


I cleaned the air filter between this trip at the track and the last time as well as checking all of the TR55 spark plugs. They all looked great and I reset the gap at about .52

There was an LS2 GTO there, M6 with heads and cam. STOCK LS2 intake and he ran 12.1 at 117 MPH - So I dont think my ported LS2 intake is the problem.

My guess is the problem is either the tune or the Fuddle converter. I am sure it is one of the two.....

Hey man, I knew I had seen your threads. Very cool meeting and talking to you last night !!! Best of luck with getting your car to trap better. For a h/c car she's a little slow, but as soon as your TC issues and tune are sorted out you'll be doing much better. FWIW man, all the waiting we did last night was worth it for those that waited until the end. We were almost hot lapping. I got 3 runs in, in less then 1 hour !!! Best trap was 126.72, don't ask the et (11.98) my 60 skills suck balls. Oh well, next time.

Change one thing at a time

Use HPT or EFI to measure converter slip - that STR should yield no more than 6% slip at 6000rpm (a stock converter yields 2% slip). That will tell you if the converter is bad

Then, look at the manifold vacuum at WOT. If it's less than 99kPa (100kPa is ideal) then you have intake restriction issues (head, TB, MAF, intake)

If it still doesn't make the power, the converter is efficient and intake is all good, dump the pipes and do an open header run on the dyno

If it still makes no difference, then look to the engine. Do a leakdown test on each cylinder

Your car is telling you what is wrong with it. You just gotta know where and what to look for. Changing parts without any idea of cause keeps your tuner/workshop happy but you out of cash

@370rwhp (Mustang dyno)

the stock 28lb injectors are maxed out.
A few people have mentioned it already.
I was over 90% at hi rpm with less rwhp (360) checked and confirmed by numerous EFI-L logs.

Your other problem may be your tune. A 227/227 on a 114LSA should be peaking a lot higher than 5,200-5,400rpm.