Next R&D "bullet" about to hit the dyno....
08-23-2010, 08:28 PM
#1
Next R&D "bullet" about to hit the dyno.... Im sure most the guys on this forum followed the last engine I built for Steve Smith which at the time debuted the release of our new 215 cc head....It was a 407 CID stroker built around an LS2 OEM block.
In case your new or somehow overlooked it feel free to review it now....its a good read with solid tech, good pics, and an overall engaging thread IMO. When the smoke cleared we managed to meet our peak torque figures....meet our peak HP figures, but completely obliterate anything I expected to produce below 4000 RPM. This engine started the pull at 490 ft/lbs and cleared 500 as early as 3800 RPM's never dipping below that figure till 6500 RPM's. Peak power occured at 6300 coming in at 618 HP.....peak torque at 5100 reaching 564 ft/lbs. Numbers a larger and much heavier 460 CID BBC would have been proud of not that long ago but I'm dating myself a little....LOL
Here is the thread covering that build....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...215-r-d-2.html
Of course I usually leave the dyno with more questions than the number I actually had answered during the test session.
In this case I left the test above thinking what if I wouldnt have advanced the cam as much.....what if I would have went with a little more cam....etc. etc.....you see where Im going here. Had I had the opportunity to see the results ahead of time I would have secretly installed a slightly larger cam and not even have told Steve....LOL (Well....I fantasized about that scenario after the fact!) Now dont get me wrong.....we nailed ALL the parameters of the build Steve and I set forth to accomplish....I just felt we had so much torque down low we could actually afford to lose some in swap of more power upstairs. In an acceleration contest horsepower is king, but alot of low RPM torque is a blast to drive around town....no denying that. Ultimately the results were just what Steve was looking for and the car is a blast to drive with insane snap in the throttle and a peak output of 540/500 at the tire, but I left that test session with the nagging "what if" in the back of my mind.
Enter Jeremy Wendling....a guy I have been speaking to on and off about a build for the better part of two years. Steve's 407 build was right up his alley as he also cares about the area under the curve and a package that is still a pleasure to drive with good part throttle grunt and "crispness" but while Steve's Vette is more his daily, this project with Jeremy is more of a Friday night or weekend street toy....not to mention the guy lives in Canada where you only have a few months out of the year to really enjoy this stuff. Bottom line is while he still wanted a very tractable package, seeing as he puts a couple of thousand miles a year on the car, I was willing to get a tad more aggressive than I did for Steve's 407 build and he gave me the carte blanche to do so.
I opted for a little more cubes on this one starting with an LS3 block and overboring it around .006 per side to get a perfectly straight and round cylinder (416.5 CID with a 4.071 final bore dimension).
Now dont assume more cubes equal more horsepower because thats a mistake even some of the people in the industry still adhere to. More cubes equals more low RPM and peak torque but they have more internal friction and a larger appetite for air. Given a similar (or the same) induction and exhaust system, they will simply have more area under the curve with better low/mid RPM torque figures....peak about the same power at a lower RPM, and fall off a little faster than a smaller motor with the same "lungs" (heads, cam, intake, exhaust system, etc.). All of this a good thing but be clear that none of the power gained in this build will really be attributed to the slight gain in displacement.....only the potential peak torque increase although this motor has less compression than the 407 I just built because its a 91 octane piece (11.4 to 1) so that will slightly hurt us in peak torque output but I hope for slightly more net than the 407 build with higher compression.
The BIG news of this build is it also features a little more cylinder head. While Steve's "Mamo romanced" 215's flowed about the same as our current 225 production heads, this 417 will feature AFR's all new "V2" 230 cc head.....and its a pretty nasty piece. Its all about area under the curve with explosive low and midlift flow significantly better than our 225, and about 8-10 more peak CFM as well. The cool thing is while the moniker looks 5cc larger, in the real world its only about 2cc's.....our former 225 ran a few cc's larger than advertised....the new head is right at 229-230 cc's so not only does it flow considerably better, it does it with even more velocity and a higher level of efficiency.
Trying once again to slightly one up the last build in an effort to make a few more ponies this build will also feature one of my ported 102mm FAST intakes (versus the 92mm version I ported for Steve).
A little more cam (dont forget this still needed to be friendly on the street) with a 243/247 custom cam I designed around the new Comp LSL lobes (.624 lift on both sides). That should help keep the slightly larger engine from falling off as quickly as it would have with the same size cam I installed in the 407 which was an XER lobed 242 single pattern grind. Once again a larger motor has a bigger appetite for air and can tolerate more overlap while retaining the same amount of "civility" on the street a smaller motor with less cam might have.
Thats about all the time I have at this moment....I will post flow figures on the new AFR 230 heads and a few pics of the build later or tomorrow at the latest.
We are also launching a new version of our 205 which has been mega successful for almost six years....that head will now displace 210 cc's but up's the ante on flow alot more than the marginal increase in volume. I expect that head to do extremely well out in the field also.
Lots of exciting stuff AFR related and of course Im excited to see how much power and torque the new 417 produces on the engine dyno as well as the shape of the power curve.
Our goal heading into this project (of course taking some of what we learned from the last one) was to try and keep the bottom of the curve at least close in torque output, while trying to improve the power output and still retain good driving manners with decent idle vacuum as well.
If all goes smoothly the answer to that question will be available to us by Friday....
Regards,
Tony
In case your new or somehow overlooked it feel free to review it now....its a good read with solid tech, good pics, and an overall engaging thread IMO. When the smoke cleared we managed to meet our peak torque figures....meet our peak HP figures, but completely obliterate anything I expected to produce below 4000 RPM. This engine started the pull at 490 ft/lbs and cleared 500 as early as 3800 RPM's never dipping below that figure till 6500 RPM's. Peak power occured at 6300 coming in at 618 HP.....peak torque at 5100 reaching 564 ft/lbs. Numbers a larger and much heavier 460 CID BBC would have been proud of not that long ago but I'm dating myself a little....LOL
Here is the thread covering that build....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...215-r-d-2.html
Of course I usually leave the dyno with more questions than the number I actually had answered during the test session.
In this case I left the test above thinking what if I wouldnt have advanced the cam as much.....what if I would have went with a little more cam....etc. etc.....you see where Im going here. Had I had the opportunity to see the results ahead of time I would have secretly installed a slightly larger cam and not even have told Steve....LOL (Well....I fantasized about that scenario after the fact!) Now dont get me wrong.....we nailed ALL the parameters of the build Steve and I set forth to accomplish....I just felt we had so much torque down low we could actually afford to lose some in swap of more power upstairs. In an acceleration contest horsepower is king, but alot of low RPM torque is a blast to drive around town....no denying that. Ultimately the results were just what Steve was looking for and the car is a blast to drive with insane snap in the throttle and a peak output of 540/500 at the tire, but I left that test session with the nagging "what if" in the back of my mind.
Enter Jeremy Wendling....a guy I have been speaking to on and off about a build for the better part of two years. Steve's 407 build was right up his alley as he also cares about the area under the curve and a package that is still a pleasure to drive with good part throttle grunt and "crispness" but while Steve's Vette is more his daily, this project with Jeremy is more of a Friday night or weekend street toy....not to mention the guy lives in Canada where you only have a few months out of the year to really enjoy this stuff. Bottom line is while he still wanted a very tractable package, seeing as he puts a couple of thousand miles a year on the car, I was willing to get a tad more aggressive than I did for Steve's 407 build and he gave me the carte blanche to do so.
I opted for a little more cubes on this one starting with an LS3 block and overboring it around .006 per side to get a perfectly straight and round cylinder (416.5 CID with a 4.071 final bore dimension).
Now dont assume more cubes equal more horsepower because thats a mistake even some of the people in the industry still adhere to. More cubes equals more low RPM and peak torque but they have more internal friction and a larger appetite for air. Given a similar (or the same) induction and exhaust system, they will simply have more area under the curve with better low/mid RPM torque figures....peak about the same power at a lower RPM, and fall off a little faster than a smaller motor with the same "lungs" (heads, cam, intake, exhaust system, etc.). All of this a good thing but be clear that none of the power gained in this build will really be attributed to the slight gain in displacement.....only the potential peak torque increase although this motor has less compression than the 407 I just built because its a 91 octane piece (11.4 to 1) so that will slightly hurt us in peak torque output but I hope for slightly more net than the 407 build with higher compression.
The BIG news of this build is it also features a little more cylinder head. While Steve's "Mamo romanced" 215's flowed about the same as our current 225 production heads, this 417 will feature AFR's all new "V2" 230 cc head.....and its a pretty nasty piece. Its all about area under the curve with explosive low and midlift flow significantly better than our 225, and about 8-10 more peak CFM as well. The cool thing is while the moniker looks 5cc larger, in the real world its only about 2cc's.....our former 225 ran a few cc's larger than advertised....the new head is right at 229-230 cc's so not only does it flow considerably better, it does it with even more velocity and a higher level of efficiency.
Trying once again to slightly one up the last build in an effort to make a few more ponies this build will also feature one of my ported 102mm FAST intakes (versus the 92mm version I ported for Steve).
A little more cam (dont forget this still needed to be friendly on the street) with a 243/247 custom cam I designed around the new Comp LSL lobes (.624 lift on both sides). That should help keep the slightly larger engine from falling off as quickly as it would have with the same size cam I installed in the 407 which was an XER lobed 242 single pattern grind. Once again a larger motor has a bigger appetite for air and can tolerate more overlap while retaining the same amount of "civility" on the street a smaller motor with less cam might have.
Thats about all the time I have at this moment....I will post flow figures on the new AFR 230 heads and a few pics of the build later or tomorrow at the latest.
We are also launching a new version of our 205 which has been mega successful for almost six years....that head will now displace 210 cc's but up's the ante on flow alot more than the marginal increase in volume. I expect that head to do extremely well out in the field also.
Lots of exciting stuff AFR related and of course Im excited to see how much power and torque the new 417 produces on the engine dyno as well as the shape of the power curve.
Our goal heading into this project (of course taking some of what we learned from the last one) was to try and keep the bottom of the curve at least close in torque output, while trying to improve the power output and still retain good driving manners with decent idle vacuum as well.
If all goes smoothly the answer to that question will be available to us by Friday....
Regards,
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 08-23-2010 at 09:00 PM.
08-23-2010, 09:18 PM
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Sounds like its going to be a great build!! I have serched but havent seen any results with your AFR 215 heads on a 346 combo that you have done. I have seen about 2 on this site from other members but figured you might have multiple results of different combos you could share.
What's up with the Vette and your 245 build? 
08-24-2010, 01:58 AM
#7
I think "Mamofied" is my fave.....have to the thank none other than Patrick G for that one!
OK....on to the more important matters at hand
A pic of the latest creation
And while Im thinking about it, a heads up to all of you running the FAST 102.
I used the button head bolts supplied and noticed the 102 sits right on top of the even the low profile bolts before I was fully seated on the head. I decided to remove the valley plate and countersink the holes and then run conical stainless hardware that would lay flush with the plate when I was done. You only have to do nine of them....the two by the oil pressure sender clear the intake and you can use the button head bolts supplied by FAST. Now this could be different depending on your heads, but my guess is most people would experience the same or similar situation that I did because these are straight up 72 cc heads milled to 70 or so cc's to get my target CR.
Here is a pic of the finished install....
What else....
My personal engine that will feature the new AFR 245's got back-burnered again because I'm building another complete engine for a customer after Jeremy's is finished very similar to his build but with a slightly smaller cam for a road race application. Same heads, our new 230 cc runner, but this application calls for serious grunt in the 3500-4000 range for coming off a slow corner and I wanted to skew the power curve a little lower. At this point I've forgotten what its like to own a fast car so another couple of months isn't going to kill me.....LOL Seriously though, after this next build my engine is getting done. I just about have the new heads in my hand (waiting on the large chamber version due out anyday) and truthfully thats been the main reason I kept pushing it back.
The new 205's.....or the V2 210 cc heads we will be launching still have the 3.900 bore but they flow about 10 CFM under the curve stronger than the 205's....maybe closer to 15 at a few lift points, and are tailor made for a hard running 346. If you need or want the larger bore just slide into the 215's for slightly more flow and a larger bore direct from the factory via CNC.
Will update this thread with the new flow numbers soon....
Gotta get some rest....Ive got a busy schedule the rest of this week
-Tony
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08-24-2010, 10:09 AM
#13
I didn't make it clear enough whats going on
The 205 and the 225 will no longer be available.....they will both be replaced by the new slightly larger, more efficient, and higher flowing "V2" versions of each.....the new AFR 210 and the AFR 230
Essentially if you order a 205 at this point your going to get the new 210.....LOL
Same deal with the 225 obviously....its technically no longer available from AFR. The new heads are being produced in different castings by the way to better facilitate the changes in the port shape I designed (we had to modify the intake cores a bit).
So....the short answer to your question is we will offer four different cathedral heads. The 210, 215, 230, and the new 245 bad boy (killer piece for a larger aggressive build). The entire cathedral line has been tweaked and improved upon and I think you guys will start to see some of those results in the dyno section over the next few months. We even have new machining updates in the CNC programs etc, and the CNC porting work is exceptional.
-Tony
08-24-2010, 05:24 PM
#17
Yes....it will make it "eas-ier"....with the emphasis placed in the "ier"
Here are some data on both heads....don't forget they finished size of both new products is extremely close to the original and these are real world numbers that we stand behind off an SF600 bench. Do NOT try and compare these numbers to other vendors advertised numbers....its a waste of time (read my "Flowthread" sticky to get better up to speed on that). Some of our competitors use a different style bench which can produce "generous" numbers when compared to the SuperFlow (which IMO is still the industry standard).
What you need to keep in mind is we are comparing apples to apples here and at this point most everyone already knows how effective the 205 and the 225 has been over the years....we upped the ante with the V2 version of both.
INTAKE
Lift....AFR 205...AFR 210
.200......140.........153
.300......200.........214
.400......251.........262
.500......281.........293
.550......292.........300
.600......298.........302
EXHAUST
.200......112.........124
.300......170.........178
.400......203.........214
.500......221.........227
.600......230.........237
--------------------------------------------------------------
Now the 225/230 comparison....
Small bore (62 cc version)
INTAKE
Lift....AFR 225...AFR 230
.200......148.........157
.300......212.........224
.400......262.........272
.500......300.........311
.550......310.........320
.600......315.........324
Exhaust
.200......118.........129
.300......175.........183
.400......209.........225
.500......225.........244
.600......237.........252
Large bore (72 cc version)
INTAKE
Lift....AFR 225...AFR 230
.200......158.........158
.300......223.........230
.400......276.........282
.500......315.........320
.550......323.........325
.600......324.........328
EXHAUST
.200......120.........120
.300......178.........183
.400......220.........225
.500......241.........244
.600......250.........252
OK....Gotta get back to work but that should give the number crunchers some data to chew on!
Thanks,
Tony
PS....Jeremy's "Mamofied" 230's went in the mid 330's on the intake and close to 260 on the exhaust!
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 08-24-2010 at 05:29 PM.
08-24-2010, 07:16 PM
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Wow, those 210cc numbers are very impressive. I compared them below to the mamofied 205cc heads you did for PatG's 508rwhp trans am. Near identical, these will be the next heads I buy for sure. Even your real world numbers make the inflated numbers of other companies look bad.
INTAKE
Lift...Mamofied 205...AFR 210
.200.......158...........153
.300.......220...........214
.400.......264...........262
.500.......285...........293
.550.......296...........300
.600.......300...........302
EXHAUST
.200........122...........124
.300........178...........178
.400........217...........214
.500........232...........227
.600........241...........237
INTAKE
Lift...Mamofied 205...AFR 210
.200.......158...........153
.300.......220...........214
.400.......264...........262
.500.......285...........293
.550.......296...........300
.600.......300...........302
EXHAUST
.200........122...........124
.300........178...........178
.400........217...........214
.500........232...........227
.600........241...........237
08-25-2010, 04:11 PM
#20
Very funny..... (I did laugh out loud!)
For your (and everyone else's) information, the 65 cc version of the 245 LS is available and we have taken some orders and even shipped a few! The larger 73 cc version I am waiting on should be available very soon (for real)....a week or two at the latest.
You get that slug of a turbo build into the mid 8's yet.....LOL
PS....I typo'ed "Bigfoot" but liked "Bogfoot" so much I decided to keep it!