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Don't rush it Darth. It will come together and you don't want to overlook something. You've got some great stuff from Tony. Very exciting getting the parts and getting started. Looking forward to seeing your results. Good luck!
Will post more details later. Lifters and heads swapped. Took care of some ancillary crap while in there. Took a two hour detour. Another detour going to wipe pattern school but I finally graduated.
For a few hours, the sun was aimed right in my garage and ambient was 110, so I took the old and new intake inside and assembled the fast in the kitchen.
Stopped midway during head install / removal for a quick pic. Anybody want to try to tune this Frankenstein set up? In case someone asks - I do one head at a time to minimize the clutter in the garage during the swap. Seems to go smoother for me.
When taking the trays out, there was no friction holding the lifters. not even a slight drag. Hopefully this serves as a warning to those who think the tray will hold the lifters during a cam swap. Below is a few shots showing the lifters getting swapped out
Here is the tray coming out of the engine. The lifters let go with no friction at all. Anybody out there still think the tray will save you during a cam swap?
Here are the lifters still in the engine after removing the tray
It got really hot, so I came inside to build up the FAST and unpack and assemble the ATI damper. During the teardown of the old manifold, I found a torn injector o-ring, which explains at least some of the low rpm bucking due to vacuum leak. I suspected a leak, but I thought it was going to be the MAP sensor. Also, got the shim heights for the rockers, which turned out to be 0.120". If I can find the shims, the PR's will get measured today and then if there is any time left, I'll get the intake installed.
ATI super damper as unpacked. Very high quality piece.
At one point, it got to 110 in my garage, which faces west into the afternoon phoenix sun, so I took the old and new intakes inside and built up the FAST. Left the rails unattached to make bolting it in a bit more easier
I think this explains my low RPM drivability issues
After several hours of cussing and discussing with Tony, I was finally able to get a centered, narrow wipe pattern. This was with 0.120" shimming under the YT pedestals
Did you check the wipe pattern on every valve/rocker? This is a seriously awesome build-- I can't wait to do mine (when I can find the time).
no I checked two valves on two different cylinders. The wipe pattern isn't about pushrod length, but pedestal height. Once I saw two cylinders give the same result I went with it. I will be measuring all 16 pushrods. FWIW, it was a subtle difference between.100" shims and .120". The .060" that came with the kit were way off.
Lol on the time comment. My wife went on a training thing for work, so I'm blasting through this as much as possible. Hoping when she gets home it's nothing left but bolt on stuff. Otherwise it'd be dragged out like my other projects.
She is awesome about letting me do this stuff but if the time gets too far out of balance she will lose patience.
Your trays may have been really worn as most people install cams (I did one) just spinning the cam and using wood dowels as insurance, They aren't pointed straight down either which may aid in holding them up.
no I checked two valves on two different cylinders. The wipe pattern isn't about pushrod length, but pedestal height. Once I saw two cylinders give the same result I went with it. I will be measuring all 16 pushrods. FWIW, it was a subtle difference between.100" shims and .120". The .060" that came with the kit were way off.
Lol on the time comment. My wife went on a training thing for work, so I'm blasting through this as much as possible. Hoping when she gets home it's nothing left but bolt on stuff. Otherwise it'd be dragged out like my other projects.
She is awesome about letting me do this stuff but if the time gets too far out of balance she will lose patience.
Welcome to the club! I fought this issue for several days. I could not for the life of me get a good pattern. Finally just decide to try bumping up to .150" in shims just to see and discovered that was what was needed. I'm guessing Tony may have suggested this to you as we learned this from it being similar with my heads. What's your plan with the shims?
Anyhow, looking good and you are moving right along.
I was thinking like "brazier". See my avatar for my non-car obsession...
@tadams72 -- Yeah, I was on the phone with Tony for like an hour Wednesday night going through that. I kept using too much grease and finally figured out that the grease should be thin enough to be almost invisible for it to work.
The shims that came with the YT's were .062-.063". I grabbed some 0.100" on Tony's advice a few days ago. Then, I doubled the YHT's to get 0.125", and the wipe was perfect. We both saw that the .100 was still off center, but the .062 was crap.
I went to home depot with my calipers and measured tons of washers to get what I needed. At one point, the associate came up to check on me if he could help, and I appreciate that, but it takes longer to explain what I'm doing than it does for me to just do it.
Anyway, I spent over an hour mic-ing washers to find the right combination to give me 0.120"-0.132" reliably.
After I got home, I started taking all the pushrod measurements. Let me tell you, measuring all 16 pushrods is tedious. I couldn't reach the pushrods around the rockers, so I ended up finding a number - 7.650" - that was close enough to not keep uninstalling and reinstalling rods, but short enough to be below the entire dataset. Then, I bolted the pair of rockers on (one shaft per cylinder, so I was using two pushrods in tandem), cycled the engine 720 degrees, and then felt for lash. Based on how it felt, I added .005" or .010" and repeated the process until the first measurement I lost lash. Then, I measured the pushrods after they hit zero lash and within .003" of zero preload. I measured them after they came out incase they moved slightly during install or engine rotation. Then, I removed the adjustable rods and reinstalled the rockers back on the cylinder I took the measurements from so that I kept them isolated.
At this point, it was about 1am, so back to the phone with Tony, and he tells me to add .038" to the pushrod and install it, get the bolt hand tight, and then tell him how many degrees of wrench rotation are needed before I start applying significant torque to tighten the bolt any further. He had a certain amount of rotation in mind, but I didn't know what it was. Turned out my rotation was exactly where he wanted it, so it was a good way to verify the PR measurements.
So, now waiting on pushrods, so I can go back to the rest of the build. Of all the stupid things, I was replacing the knock sensors while I was in there, and the plastic connectors came apart on the knock sensor, so I had to vacuum out the KS ports and now I have to get a new KS harness. No big deal, but another minor delay.
Also, I test fit the intake manifold and found that the MAP sensor is VERY close to the firewall. It clears, but I'm not sure if it still clears with the connector in place. So, I may need to BFH the firewall a smidge. I really don't want to move the MAP to the front, but there is a port available on top of the FAST I could use. it just looks so much cleaner in the back and not front and center.
Next up is the damper. Trying to remove it without pulling the radiator and condenser. Probably a fool's errand, but we'll see. Once I get the damper replaced, if I'm still waiting on a few items, I'll bolt the headers back up. I think I'm lucky I got the crank bolt out. It had visibly stretched (it was new when I installed it) and was necked down a bit in some of the threads.
Holy crap, that was a long post. Will follow with a few pics
Also, I test fit the intake manifold and found that the MAP sensor is VERY close to the firewall. It clears, but I'm not sure if it still clears with the connector in place. So, I may need to BFH the firewall a smidge. I really don't want to move the MAP to the front, but there is a port available on top of the FAST I could use. it just looks so much cleaner in the back and not front and center.
I found the MAP sensor was a little too close to the firewall on my GTO with a 102 also. I just turned it so it was pointing down and tapped a screw with washer into the 102 to hold it. Plenty of clearance now.
There is one item I can't photograph, and that is the level of support I've received. Tony has been on the phone with me at least 3-4 hours total so far and at 1, 2, or even 3am at times. It's kind of funny, because I would not have normally been so meticulous about the measurements, and Tony has forced that, and I have learned a tremendous amount about some of the why's that I would not have normally thought about. I think I've only made him want to slap me through the phone 12 or 13 times Especially when it took me 17 tries to get the wipe pattern of the rockers to show up on the valve tip.
In all truth, he is very patient with teaching the how's and the why's. I feel like if I built another high end motor like this, I could do it again much faster, simply because I would know so much more the second time around. He had even considered coming out for the dyno run when I get this thing on the rollers.
So, before you shy away from these heads for a set that are a few hundred cheaper, ask yourself how much 4 to 6 hours of an expert's phone time is worth cussing and discussing your build - especially to a person who has just started his own business and could have used those hours to get some porting finished up or other things like designing a MMS torquemonster truck head for a certain 5.3L 2004 suburban
I was thinking like "brazier". See my avatar for my non-car obsession...
@tadams72 -- Yeah, I was on the phone with Tony for like an hour Wednesday night going through that. I kept using too much grease and finally figured out that the grease should be thin enough to be almost invisible for it to work.
The shims that came with the YT's were .062-.063". I grabbed some 0.100" on Tony's advice a few days ago. Then, I doubled the YHT's to get 0.125", and the wipe was perfect. We both saw that the .100 was still off center, but the .062 was crap.
I went to home depot with my calipers and measured tons of washers to get what I needed. At one point, the associate came up to check on me if he could help, and I appreciate that, but it takes longer to explain what I'm doing than it does for me to just do it.
Anyway, I spent over an hour mic-ing washers to find the right combination to give me 0.120"-0.132" reliably.
After I got home, I started taking all the pushrod measurements. Let me tell you, measuring all 16 pushrods is tedious. I couldn't reach the pushrods around the rockers, so I ended up finding a number - 7.650" - that was close enough to not keep uninstalling and reinstalling rods, but short enough to be below the entire dataset. Then, I bolted the pair of rockers on (one shaft per cylinder, so I was using two pushrods in tandem), cycled the engine 720 degrees, and then felt for lash. Based on how it felt, I added .005" or .010" and repeated the process until the first measurement I lost lash. Then, I measured the pushrods after they hit zero lash and within .003" of zero preload. I measured them after they came out incase they moved slightly during install or engine rotation. Then, I removed the adjustable rods and reinstalled the rockers back on the cylinder I took the measurements from so that I kept them isolated.
At this point, it was about 1am, so back to the phone with Tony, and he tells me to add .038" to the pushrod and install it, get the bolt hand tight, and then tell him how many degrees of wrench rotation are needed before I start applying significant torque to tighten the bolt any further. He had a certain amount of rotation in mind, but I didn't know what it was. Turned out my rotation was exactly where he wanted it, so it was a good way to verify the PR measurements.
So, now waiting on pushrods, so I can go back to the rest of the build. Of all the stupid things, I was replacing the knock sensors while I was in there, and the plastic connectors came apart on the knock sensor, so I had to vacuum out the KS ports and now I have to get a new KS harness. No big deal, but another minor delay.
Also, I test fit the intake manifold and found that the MAP sensor is VERY close to the firewall. It clears, but I'm not sure if it still clears with the connector in place. So, I may need to BFH the firewall a smidge. I really don't want to move the MAP to the front, but there is a port available on top of the FAST I could use. it just looks so much cleaner in the back and not front and center.
Next up is the damper. Trying to remove it without pulling the radiator and condenser. Probably a fool's errand, but we'll see. Once I get the damper replaced, if I'm still waiting on a few items, I'll bolt the headers back up. I think I'm lucky I got the crank bolt out. It had visibly stretched (it was new when I installed it) and was necked down a bit in some of the threads.
Holy crap, that was a long post. Will follow with a few pics
All I can really say is "Poor Tony"! Between you and me we have probably tested his patience on the wipe pattern. Glad you got that worked out. I haven't started measuring for pushrods yet since I am replacing the pedestals with a taller one to limit the number of shims. Hopefully in the next week or so.
Looks like your pushrod measurements are very close considering a stock block. that's good. You're going with Manton's correct? So what size?
I heard some guys having problems with the MAP on the 4th Gen's being mounted in the rear of the FAST. Anxious to see how it goes.
There is one item I can't photograph, and that is the level of support I've received. Tony has been on the phone with me at least 3-4 hours total so far and at 1, 2, or even 3am at times. It's kind of funny, because I would not have normally been so meticulous about the measurements, and Tony has forced that, and I have learned a tremendous amount about some of the why's that I would not have normally thought about. I think I've only made him want to slap me through the phone 12 or 13 times Especially when it took me 17 tries to get the wipe pattern of the rockers to show up on the valve tip.
In all truth, he is very patient with teaching the how's and the why's. I feel like if I built another high end motor like this, I could do it again much faster, simply because I would know so much more the second time around. He had even considered coming out for the dyno run when I get this thing on the rollers.
So, before you shy away from these heads for a set that are a few hundred cheaper, ask yourself how much 4 to 6 hours of an expert's phone time is worth cussing and discussing your build - especially to a person who has just started his own business and could have used those hours to get some porting finished up or other things like designing a MMS torquemonster truck head for a certain 5.3L 2004 suburban
AGREED! As much as I've talked with Tony you'd think I got the heads for free!
All I can really say is "Poor Tony"! Between you and me we have probably tested his patience on the wipe pattern. Glad you got that worked out. I haven't started measuring for pushrods yet since I am replacing the pedestals with a taller one to limit the number of shims. Hopefully in the next week or so. Looks like your pushrod measurements are very close considering a stock block. that's good. You're going with Manton's correct? So what size? I heard some guys having problems with the MAP on the 4th Gen's being mounted in the rear of the FAST. Anxious to see how it goes.
11/32 with the .125" wall. Should be plenty stout. I do have some interference with the map but I'm not moving to to the front to add some ugly to the top. Someone suggested mounting it vertical to make room. I might bfh the firewall first.
07-29-2015, 06:02 PM
Especially when it took me 17 tries to get the wipe pattern of the rockers to show up on the valve tip.
Glad you got that worked out. I haven't started measuring for pushrods yet since I am replacing the pedestals with a taller one to limit the number of shims. Hopefully in the next week or so.
