Experiment: Cam Motion Low Lash Solid Roller with stock rocker arms
11-27-2015, 10:19 AM
#42
I'm not sure honestly. Speedtigger picked up about 36rwhp IIRC, he also went up on cam size some like I did.
A guy on yellowbullet claims to have done this on a ls7 and said he picked up around 20hp up top but claims as much as 70hp at some parts in the curve. He didn't provide any details so take all that with a big grain of salt.
I'd be pretty happy to see a gain of .2 in the 1/4 overall. I was getting some lifter bleed off after 1/4 mile passes before so just getting rid of that will make me pleased.
It will be at least February before I can get to the track but I might be able to get some dyno results before then.
A guy on yellowbullet claims to have done this on a ls7 and said he picked up around 20hp up top but claims as much as 70hp at some parts in the curve. He didn't provide any details so take all that with a big grain of salt.
I'd be pretty happy to see a gain of .2 in the 1/4 overall. I was getting some lifter bleed off after 1/4 mile passes before so just getting rid of that will make me pleased.
It will be at least February before I can get to the track but I might be able to get some dyno results before then.
I would like to see a direct comparison using the same cam specs so basically only changing the lifters. I know that's not what you're doing, but I would like to see a comparison on it nonetheless.
Are they saying you have to have different cam for running solid rollers?
It used to be a pain with flat tappets. I was so relieved when they came out with roller lifters.
11-27-2015, 10:57 AM
#44
When you post results could you show the cam specs so peeps can see what the changes were?
I would like to see a direct comparison using the same cam specs so basically only changing the lifters. I know that's not what you're doing, but I would like to see a comparison on it nonetheless.
Are they saying you have to have different cam for running solid rollers?
I would like to see a direct comparison using the same cam specs so basically only changing the lifters. I know that's not what you're doing, but I would like to see a comparison on it nonetheless.
Are they saying you have to have different cam for running solid rollers?
Hydraulic cam being replaced: 230/238 .620"/.602" 113+3
Low Lash solid roller: 239/247 .636/.620" 113+3
The issue comparing is the solid loses some duration due to lash. This is estimated by Kip to make this cam behave as if it were a hydraulic cam that is a 234/242 duration.
If you put in a LLSR the exact same grind size as a hydraulic, you will effectively be installing a smaller cam. If it were not for my early peak RPM I had intended to get a LLSR which would have been the same as my 230/238...but as is I wanted to increase my top end so I could shift later and get a wider power band for the track so we increased duration 4* and in turn bumped overlap from 8* to 12*.
Yes, the Low Lash Solid Roller is a completely new cam. It is ground so the intake and exhaust lobes have the same base circle and it uses a different lobe profile as well.
I've read of people installing a solid roller lifter onto a hydraulic cam but don't know enough about it to comment past that. This setup is not something like that.
Good questions guys.
11-27-2015, 11:00 AM
#45
But either way I'm all for finding new ways to do things. Options are good.
A machinist friend of mine makes parts for Wilson Combat firearms and he has drawn up something in CAD we might experiment with. He says it was easy to design and would be very cheap to machine.
11-27-2015, 11:54 AM
#46
Hydraulic cam being replaced: 230/238 .620"/.602" 113+3
Low Lash solid roller: 239/247 .636/.620" 113+3
The issue comparing is the solid loses some duration due to lash. This is estimated by Kip to make this cam behave as if it were a hydraulic cam that is a 234/242 duration.
If you put in a LLSR the exact same grind size as a hydraulic, you will effectively be installing a smaller cam. If it were not for my early peak RPM I had intended to get a LLSR which would have been the same as my 230/238...but as is I wanted to increase my top end so I could shift later and get a wider power band for the track so we increased duration 4* and in turn bumped overlap from 8* to 12*.
Yes, the Low Lash Solid Roller is a completely new cam. It is ground so the intake and exhaust lobes have the same base circle and it uses a different lobe profile as well.
I've read of people installing a solid roller lifter onto a hydraulic cam but don't know enough about it to comment past that. This setup is not something like that.
Good questions guys.
Low Lash solid roller: 239/247 .636/.620" 113+3
The issue comparing is the solid loses some duration due to lash. This is estimated by Kip to make this cam behave as if it were a hydraulic cam that is a 234/242 duration.
If you put in a LLSR the exact same grind size as a hydraulic, you will effectively be installing a smaller cam. If it were not for my early peak RPM I had intended to get a LLSR which would have been the same as my 230/238...but as is I wanted to increase my top end so I could shift later and get a wider power band for the track so we increased duration 4* and in turn bumped overlap from 8* to 12*.
Yes, the Low Lash Solid Roller is a completely new cam. It is ground so the intake and exhaust lobes have the same base circle and it uses a different lobe profile as well.
I've read of people installing a solid roller lifter onto a hydraulic cam but don't know enough about it to comment past that. This setup is not something like that.
Good questions guys.
I'm really curious to see how the RPM's work out for you. If you will be able to spin a few more R's & land in a sweet shift recovery spot it should work well.
If it really revs out nice are you going to consider deeper cogs out back?
11-27-2015, 12:37 PM
#47
Thanks for sharing the specs. It's an important aspect of what you are doing.
I'm really curious to see how the RPM's work out for you. If you will be able to spin a few more R's & land in a sweet shift recovery spot it should work well.
If it really revs out nice are you going to consider deeper cogs out back?
I'm really curious to see how the RPM's work out for you. If you will be able to spin a few more R's & land in a sweet shift recovery spot it should work well.
If it really revs out nice are you going to consider deeper cogs out back?
I'm mostly concerned that going from a cam that was allowing me to shift at 6700rpms to one that had me shifting at 6200-6400 ate up some of the ET/trap gain from the swap to LS2 and the better head work. Car still went faster but not quite as much was gained in MPH as I had hoped.
So if this cam lets me shift at 6800-7000 I should gain what I lost plus some.
I do drag race the car regularly but at the end of the day it's still a street car that gets driven hard, autocrossed, and in 2016 I plan to get it on the road course at Hallet (near Tulsa) a couple times. So I like to put together a good all around package. I can drive this thing anywhere and it's actually more comfortable than my truck minus the lack of a/c.
That was one thing the 230/238 cam in an LS2 was beyond excellent at...coming out of a corner it ALWAYS had an insane amount of torque on tap to really rip the car out of the corner into a straight shot.
11-27-2015, 02:37 PM
#48
I am going to be machining a custom set of 2 piece trunions.
11-27-2015, 06:13 PM
#50
If I did it would just be to a 3.73, not worth messing with unless I have to. I race on a 275/50r15 Hoosier which brings gearing down a bit as is.
I'm mostly concerned that going from a cam that was allowing me to shift at 6700rpms to one that had me shifting at 6200-6400 ate up some of the ET/trap gain from the swap to LS2 and the better head work. Car still went faster but not quite as much was gained in MPH as I had hoped.
So if this cam lets me shift at 6800-7000 I should gain what I lost plus some.
I do drag race the car regularly but at the end of the day it's still a street car that gets driven hard, autocrossed, and in 2016 I plan to get it on the road course at Hallet (near Tulsa) a couple times. So I like to put together a good all around package. I can drive this thing anywhere and it's actually more comfortable than my truck minus the lack of a/c.
That was one thing the 230/238 cam in an LS2 was beyond excellent at...coming out of a corner it ALWAYS had an insane amount of torque on tap to really rip the car out of the corner into a straight shot.
I'm mostly concerned that going from a cam that was allowing me to shift at 6700rpms to one that had me shifting at 6200-6400 ate up some of the ET/trap gain from the swap to LS2 and the better head work. Car still went faster but not quite as much was gained in MPH as I had hoped.
So if this cam lets me shift at 6800-7000 I should gain what I lost plus some.
I do drag race the car regularly but at the end of the day it's still a street car that gets driven hard, autocrossed, and in 2016 I plan to get it on the road course at Hallet (near Tulsa) a couple times. So I like to put together a good all around package. I can drive this thing anywhere and it's actually more comfortable than my truck minus the lack of a/c.
That was one thing the 230/238 cam in an LS2 was beyond excellent at...coming out of a corner it ALWAYS had an insane amount of torque on tap to really rip the car out of the corner into a straight shot.
I would love to see some go-pro action of you hitting the strip & the twisties.
You feel there are quite a few that would want to retain the stock arms? I have always just ran adjustable, so I'm curious.
11-27-2015, 08:11 PM
#52
Weird.
On my 5.0 I machined a set of E5 heads to accept adjustable Rockers. I machined them to run 7/16" studs & ran adjustable roller rockers along with 3/8" rods. The ability to set pre-load as an adjustment to monitor performance was definitely an advantage in saving time in the pits. But hey I was the guy hand porting them & flowing them, which is beyond the average, I guess, but I guess I probably had access to more equipment than the average joe.
On my 5.0 I machined a set of E5 heads to accept adjustable Rockers. I machined them to run 7/16" studs & ran adjustable roller rockers along with 3/8" rods. The ability to set pre-load as an adjustment to monitor performance was definitely an advantage in saving time in the pits. But hey I was the guy hand porting them & flowing them, which is beyond the average, I guess, but I guess I probably had access to more equipment than the average joe.
11-27-2015, 08:35 PM
#53
Weird.
On my 5.0 I machined a set of E5 heads to accept adjustable Rockers. I machined them to run 7/16" studs & ran adjustable roller rockers along with 3/8" rods. The ability to set pre-load as an adjustment to monitor performance was definitely an advantage in saving time in the pits. But hey I was the guy hand porting them & flowing them, which is beyond the average, I guess, but I guess I probably had access to more equipment than the average joe.
On my 5.0 I machined a set of E5 heads to accept adjustable Rockers. I machined them to run 7/16" studs & ran adjustable roller rockers along with 3/8" rods. The ability to set pre-load as an adjustment to monitor performance was definitely an advantage in saving time in the pits. But hey I was the guy hand porting them & flowing them, which is beyond the average, I guess, but I guess I probably had access to more equipment than the average joe.
We use to open the e7 exhaust port up 20cc, angle cut them .100".
That brought the comp to ~10.2:1. With a 175 dry shot and those heads (everything else stock) we had atleast 4 cars running 7.30's @ 92.
Won lots of money with those cars in the middle 90's.
11-28-2015, 01:05 AM
#54
It was what I had to work with laying around. Buddy of mine thought he had a head issue on his truck so I helped him swap heads. After we got it all together it turned out the timing chain had skipped a tooth.
I didn't mill the heads (add: other than to square them up. About .004-.005"IIRC) but I ported them & went 1.60" EV's. At the time I was running a 175HP dual stage wet kit (75/100)on the E6's. That was the limit of the exhaust flow. With the E5's I ran a 250HP jetting (100/150) don't remember the 1/8th times but it went 11.7's@117mph on street radials, 3.55's, a stock 5spd, & a stock cam because the car was speed density (86GT) & flat tops. It ran bad enough after the ported heads & intake (welded corners ofcourse). Until a few days later, while heading to work, it just "cleaned up" & started running great & hauled ****. Darndest thing ever. That was 97-98ish. I was planning on turbos at the time but I wanted to see how far I could go with juice, that's why I left the chambers stock cc's.
Sorry to side track the tech thread...
I didn't mill the heads (add: other than to square them up. About .004-.005"IIRC) but I ported them & went 1.60" EV's. At the time I was running a 175HP dual stage wet kit (75/100)on the E6's. That was the limit of the exhaust flow. With the E5's I ran a 250HP jetting (100/150) don't remember the 1/8th times but it went 11.7's@117mph on street radials, 3.55's, a stock 5spd, & a stock cam because the car was speed density (86GT) & flat tops. It ran bad enough after the ported heads & intake (welded corners ofcourse). Until a few days later, while heading to work, it just "cleaned up" & started running great & hauled ****. Darndest thing ever. That was 97-98ish. I was planning on turbos at the time but I wanted to see how far I could go with juice, that's why I left the chambers stock cc's.
Sorry to side track the tech thread...
Last edited by gtfoxy; 11-28-2015 at 09:44 AM.
11-30-2015, 08:51 AM
#57
I had no issue with shims affecting the neighboring rocker even though they share a pedestal.
Got the car fired up last night but can't drive it yet, need a radiator/fan mount and some intake tubing due to changing to a dual pass radiator while I had the old one out.
Open headers, first start (tune hasn't been touched and is cranky):
Tossed the exhaust on:
The engine is really quiet and smooth cold but once warm seems like it does get a little sewing machine noise so I might need to tighten the lash up a hair. It's still not any louder than previous hydraulic cams. I honestly think most of my noise up there is fuel injector click and everything else being amplified by the Fast intake.
I'm going to get some more run time on it to let everything wear in before I bother with it.
The engine seems to free rev quicker than before, hoping to get to drive it soon to get some impressions and work on the tune so it will idle a little steadier. Sounds to me like it's getting some timing surge from the over/under speed tables. Fueling is definitely a good bit off since it doesn't want to idle at first without throttle input.
Got the car fired up last night but can't drive it yet, need a radiator/fan mount and some intake tubing due to changing to a dual pass radiator while I had the old one out.
Open headers, first start (tune hasn't been touched and is cranky):
Tossed the exhaust on:
The engine is really quiet and smooth cold but once warm seems like it does get a little sewing machine noise so I might need to tighten the lash up a hair. It's still not any louder than previous hydraulic cams. I honestly think most of my noise up there is fuel injector click and everything else being amplified by the Fast intake.
I'm going to get some more run time on it to let everything wear in before I bother with it.
The engine seems to free rev quicker than before, hoping to get to drive it soon to get some impressions and work on the tune so it will idle a little steadier. Sounds to me like it's getting some timing surge from the over/under speed tables. Fueling is definitely a good bit off since it doesn't want to idle at first without throttle input.
11-30-2015, 10:10 AM
#59
I wouldn't think so but I also hadn't considered it. I'll be able to tell once I get EFI Live hooked up to it.
I have the ls1 sensors relocated to the block on the ls2 so things are already kinda iffy there but I think I have them dialed in pretty good
I have the ls1 sensors relocated to the block on the ls2 so things are already kinda iffy there but I think I have them dialed in pretty good
