Experiment: Cam Motion Low Lash Solid Roller with stock rocker arms
11-30-2015, 01:56 PM
#64
I got a dual pass aluminum one from Speedway Motors. It was $180 shipped and was close to stock size...but it's 1" taller and the radiator cap sticks up higher than that so I have to offset it or cut some of the underside of the hood to clear the cap.
Since it's taller and thicker the stock radiator cover won't fit.
It should save me about 20lbs off the nose though over my brass/copper 3 row radiator.
Since it's dual pass the inlet and outlet are both on the passenger side so now I have room to run my intake ducting over to behind the driver headlight and can cut a hole in the inner fender to feed the filter cool air instead of the filter resting right between the radiator and engine.
11-30-2015, 04:44 PM
#65
I don't remember the brand right off hand, but the problem is that the tanks are not rounded on the corners like the stock tank where it rides in the saddles. So, I had to make new saddles for the bottom of the core support and a custom aluminum top plate. It came out really nice, but it was not a direct replacement as advertised that was for sure.
12-01-2015, 08:18 AM
#66
I made some brackets for the radiator last night before I got too wiped out. Going to drill a couple holes and mount the fans tonight so I can at least drive it if the rain doesn't flood us out again (albeit without an air filter until my parts come in).
12-01-2015, 11:33 AM
#67
Im new to solid roller cams, but this LLR cam motion is amazing stuff. My biggest turn off from buying this over the hydraulic version was the fact that i had to buy Adjustable rocker arms. So pardon my ignorance here, but are adjustable rockers absolutely necessary to install a cammotion LLR camshaft? Or is the stock rocker with the trunion upgrade a more affordable alternative?
12-01-2015, 12:25 PM
#68
Well that's the point of this project. Normally yes would be the answer...you need adjustables to be able to easily set lash. But what I'm testing is how feasible it is for a person who doesn't want the expense of the adjustable rockers to be able to use shims to set lash.
So as you can see, it's more time consuming and you have to pay attention to what you're doing, but it is possible to use the stock rockers.
Once I get it on the road I'll be updating with reliability, driveability, and other aspects like that.
So as you can see, it's more time consuming and you have to pay attention to what you're doing, but it is possible to use the stock rockers.
Once I get it on the road I'll be updating with reliability, driveability, and other aspects like that.
12-01-2015, 03:05 PM
#70
Well that's the point of this project. Normally yes would be the answer...you need adjustables to be able to easily set lash. But what I'm testing is how feasible it is for a person who doesn't want the expense of the adjustable rockers to be able to use shims to set lash.
So as you can see, it's more time consuming and you have to pay attention to what you're doing, but it is possible to use the stock rockers.
Once I get it on the road I'll be updating with reliability, driveability, and other aspects like that.
So as you can see, it's more time consuming and you have to pay attention to what you're doing, but it is possible to use the stock rockers.
Once I get it on the road I'll be updating with reliability, driveability, and other aspects like that.
12-01-2015, 09:53 PM
#72
Got to drive it some tonight. Tried to do some logging tuning but my wideband is on the fritz.
On the old tune there is still a noticeable difference. It feels completely different honestly. I don't even fully know how to explain it....it revs very quick and it's smoother.
Valvetrain noise is pretty much nonexistent. I would definitely say it's quieter than before which was already quiet...pretty much just hear the injectors, cooling fans, and accessories.
I have Thursday off work so if it's not raining I'm going to try to fix the wideband, do some tuning, and shoot some videos and a work up a more in depth driving impression write up.
So far I would say I definitely like it.
Edit: one concern so far is my oil pressure warm is lower than before...not sure if it's related to the lifters or if it's the cheap walmart 5w30 conventional oil I put in to flush the engine from coolant from removing the heads. Could also just be air or crap on the sending unit. I'll change it out for my usual Castrol Syntec 0w40 and see if pressure comes back or not.
On the old tune there is still a noticeable difference. It feels completely different honestly. I don't even fully know how to explain it....it revs very quick and it's smoother.
Valvetrain noise is pretty much nonexistent. I would definitely say it's quieter than before which was already quiet...pretty much just hear the injectors, cooling fans, and accessories.
I have Thursday off work so if it's not raining I'm going to try to fix the wideband, do some tuning, and shoot some videos and a work up a more in depth driving impression write up.
So far I would say I definitely like it.
Edit: one concern so far is my oil pressure warm is lower than before...not sure if it's related to the lifters or if it's the cheap walmart 5w30 conventional oil I put in to flush the engine from coolant from removing the heads. Could also just be air or crap on the sending unit. I'll change it out for my usual Castrol Syntec 0w40 and see if pressure comes back or not.
Last edited by thunderstruck507; 12-01-2015 at 10:04 PM.
12-01-2015, 11:20 PM
#73
What is goin on with the WB?
How much pressure difference are you seeing? A 30wt vs 40wt will read about 5 to as much as 10psi, in my experience, difference. What is your pressure at either way?
Solid lifter oil flow is a bit different than a hydraulic because it has to work against a plunger & check ball & still feed the top end. A solid lifter can pretty much flow straight through.
How much pressure difference are you seeing? A 30wt vs 40wt will read about 5 to as much as 10psi, in my experience, difference. What is your pressure at either way?
Solid lifter oil flow is a bit different than a hydraulic because it has to work against a plunger & check ball & still feed the top end. A solid lifter can pretty much flow straight through.
12-02-2015, 08:16 AM
#74
Wideband is reading slightly lean at idle but at WOT was showing 88-90:1 afr. Probably just need to recalibrate it. That or the race gas I splashed in at a previous track outing might have fouled the sensor.
oil pressure went from 46-50psi hot idle to 38-42psi, so still safe and it climbs normally under WOT...probably the crappy oil as I imagine the German Castrol is thick even for a 40 like the old 0w30
was.
EDIT: disregard oil pressure concerns...I'm a complete scatterbrain and forgot the crank has been changed (old one had a spun pulley, had it replaced with another stock crank)
oil pressure went from 46-50psi hot idle to 38-42psi, so still safe and it climbs normally under WOT...probably the crappy oil as I imagine the German Castrol is thick even for a 40 like the old 0w30
was.
EDIT: disregard oil pressure concerns...I'm a complete scatterbrain and forgot the crank has been changed (old one had a spun pulley, had it replaced with another stock crank)
Last edited by thunderstruck507; 12-02-2015 at 08:51 AM.
12-04-2015, 08:34 AM
#75
Still waiting on parts to put the air filter back on, but did do some driving and tuning with open air filter.
It's been just as easy to to tune as the car ever has been honestly. So the myth that it's hard to tune a LLSR is definitely false. My guess is the cams in question that were "hard to tune" were due to a much larger overlap which would be true of a hydraulic cam with high overlap as well.
Now that fueling is getting dialed in this thing is coming alive. Still has a real bad stumble when first going WOT due to MAF turbulence from it being attached to a 90* duct with no filter/velocity cone in front of it (space constraints). But as soon as that clears up it starts to pull hard...then at just under 5000rpms it's like a nitrous kit comes on and it screams up to 7000 quick in 2nd gear. This might be less pronounced once the MAF issue is resolved.
I'll report back once the tune is fully dialed in. I'm hoping that's tomorrow. But so far you can definitely color me impressed. I'm not sure if the butt dyno is being thrown off by the stumbles but as is I would venture to say the car picked up as much power from this cam swap as it did going from the LS1 to LS2 shortblock. Maybe more. This car has never pulled this violently up top.
It's been just as easy to to tune as the car ever has been honestly. So the myth that it's hard to tune a LLSR is definitely false. My guess is the cams in question that were "hard to tune" were due to a much larger overlap which would be true of a hydraulic cam with high overlap as well.
Now that fueling is getting dialed in this thing is coming alive. Still has a real bad stumble when first going WOT due to MAF turbulence from it being attached to a 90* duct with no filter/velocity cone in front of it (space constraints). But as soon as that clears up it starts to pull hard...then at just under 5000rpms it's like a nitrous kit comes on and it screams up to 7000 quick in 2nd gear. This might be less pronounced once the MAF issue is resolved.
I'll report back once the tune is fully dialed in. I'm hoping that's tomorrow. But so far you can definitely color me impressed. I'm not sure if the butt dyno is being thrown off by the stumbles but as is I would venture to say the car picked up as much power from this cam swap as it did going from the LS1 to LS2 shortblock. Maybe more. This car has never pulled this violently up top.
12-04-2015, 11:01 AM
#77
It's probably going to like a bit more fuel & a tad more spark in your transitional, especially the higher rate areas. Your going to have more overlap (under the curve) starting at around .030" lift, even though the spec is the same as I am reading it at 113*, so you are probably going to need to compensate for what is being lost. That is on top of what it is going to want due to responsiveness due to the improved lift curve.
12-05-2015, 09:20 PM
#78
Awesome thread Thunderstruck. I'm going to be having my TEA 5.3 heads gone through this winter, guides, valve job, etc.
I will have to ask Greg how close they get the valve heights. This is really interesting as I will be getting a different cam.
I'm interested if LJMS shows his shim idea/prototype.
I will have to ask Greg how close they get the valve heights. This is really interesting as I will be getting a different cam.
I'm interested if LJMS shows his shim idea/prototype.
12-07-2015, 08:55 AM
#79
Put a new wideband sensor in and it fixed that issue. I guess when I splashed some leaded race gas in the car at the track it didn't like it.
I borrowed some parts and got the intake ducting mocked up until my stuff arrives and it solved the bad stumble on heavy throttle.
Now that air/fuel is tuned the power is there through the whole curve. If the car lost any down low (some of the tune data suggests it might have as it was a little rich) from the bigger cam it's so little I can't perceive it.
Either way like every other LS car I've driven it comes alive hard in the 3,000rpm range and has a healthy pull from there up. It's still noticeably very different than before in that the pull is smoother and it ramps up quickly. By the time it gets to around peak torque in the high 4000 range the LLSR is starting to show it's benefits. From 5000+ the pull is violent and the car still feels like it's pulling when it smacks the current 7,000 rpm limiter.
Once I got a bit of that out of my system I just took off and hit some of the curvy roads around the lake which also have a lot of nice elevation changes and started putting the car through it's paces. Overall I'd have to say I couldn't really be happier as with the 3600 stall the car has so much midrange it can pull out of the corners every bit as hard as it was before.
Holding a lower gear and letting it buzz along at 4000-4500rpm through a sweeper then rolling in hard on exit let's this thing really shine. I had to get a feel for it and not get greedy because there is enough power above that now sometimes the car would want to get close to that edge of cutting the *** end loose. And of course any chances I had to run out the full gear past that were just smile inducing.
The more I drive it the more I like it. I can honestly say there are no regrets and I will never put another hydraulic in a performance LS car, I'll leave those for the truck.
Once I got home I pulled the driver side valve cover and checked hot lash and looked at a few of the valve tips. Nothing looked out of the ordinary for wear and hot lash came in between .008" and .012". The top end is still about as quiet as it was with the old cam, and I'm sure it would get back down quieter if I tightened up the couple that are on the looser side. It's got about 200 miles on it so far so I'm going to try to let things wear in a little more before I bother adjusting the shims. I am going to check the passenger side next chance I get (it's a bit more difficult to get the cover off on that side hot).
As it stands I'm really a happy camper. I would have no qualms about doing it over again this way. The pros really outweigh the cons for me. The only real differences in doing this over a hydraulic is a few hours of setup (part of which is the pain in the butt of checking pushrod length but that should be done for a hydraulic too to get the most out of it) and a little extra cost on the lifters.
Cam, pushrods, springs, gaskets, etc are all the same. The solid roller lifters are a little more expensive when you're used to looking at $150 ls7 lifters...but considering how many people these days are getting better lifters anyway for fear of ls7 failures even that cost becomes negligible.
And if the car gained as much as it feels like it did, the extra price has an astronomical power/$ ratio over things LS guys already do. You're talking about the price of an underdrive pulley that might gain you 5-8rwhp spent on doing something like this which in my case I would peg at an easy 25+ rwhp and a much more stable top end.
I'll be trying to get some dyno time once I do some more fine tuning and of course track results around February when they open.
I will say now that I've corrected the VE tables and MAF table I'm having some issue with hot idle in park/neutral surging I haven't quite figured out. Going to finish working on that and play with timing a little in the mid range.
If there are any questions I might have missed let me know. Trying to cover a lot of things here so sometimes I let things slip by me.
I'll also continue to monitor lash and things like that. Plan for now is to check the passenger side ASAP and get a baseline there too then check both sides again when I change the oil in 1000 miles or so and see if it's changed.
I borrowed some parts and got the intake ducting mocked up until my stuff arrives and it solved the bad stumble on heavy throttle.
Now that air/fuel is tuned the power is there through the whole curve. If the car lost any down low (some of the tune data suggests it might have as it was a little rich) from the bigger cam it's so little I can't perceive it.
Either way like every other LS car I've driven it comes alive hard in the 3,000rpm range and has a healthy pull from there up. It's still noticeably very different than before in that the pull is smoother and it ramps up quickly. By the time it gets to around peak torque in the high 4000 range the LLSR is starting to show it's benefits. From 5000+ the pull is violent and the car still feels like it's pulling when it smacks the current 7,000 rpm limiter.
Once I got a bit of that out of my system I just took off and hit some of the curvy roads around the lake which also have a lot of nice elevation changes and started putting the car through it's paces. Overall I'd have to say I couldn't really be happier as with the 3600 stall the car has so much midrange it can pull out of the corners every bit as hard as it was before.
Holding a lower gear and letting it buzz along at 4000-4500rpm through a sweeper then rolling in hard on exit let's this thing really shine. I had to get a feel for it and not get greedy because there is enough power above that now sometimes the car would want to get close to that edge of cutting the *** end loose. And of course any chances I had to run out the full gear past that were just smile inducing.
The more I drive it the more I like it. I can honestly say there are no regrets and I will never put another hydraulic in a performance LS car, I'll leave those for the truck.
Once I got home I pulled the driver side valve cover and checked hot lash and looked at a few of the valve tips. Nothing looked out of the ordinary for wear and hot lash came in between .008" and .012". The top end is still about as quiet as it was with the old cam, and I'm sure it would get back down quieter if I tightened up the couple that are on the looser side. It's got about 200 miles on it so far so I'm going to try to let things wear in a little more before I bother adjusting the shims. I am going to check the passenger side next chance I get (it's a bit more difficult to get the cover off on that side hot).
As it stands I'm really a happy camper. I would have no qualms about doing it over again this way. The pros really outweigh the cons for me. The only real differences in doing this over a hydraulic is a few hours of setup (part of which is the pain in the butt of checking pushrod length but that should be done for a hydraulic too to get the most out of it) and a little extra cost on the lifters.
Cam, pushrods, springs, gaskets, etc are all the same. The solid roller lifters are a little more expensive when you're used to looking at $150 ls7 lifters...but considering how many people these days are getting better lifters anyway for fear of ls7 failures even that cost becomes negligible.
And if the car gained as much as it feels like it did, the extra price has an astronomical power/$ ratio over things LS guys already do. You're talking about the price of an underdrive pulley that might gain you 5-8rwhp spent on doing something like this which in my case I would peg at an easy 25+ rwhp and a much more stable top end.
I'll be trying to get some dyno time once I do some more fine tuning and of course track results around February when they open.
I will say now that I've corrected the VE tables and MAF table I'm having some issue with hot idle in park/neutral surging I haven't quite figured out. Going to finish working on that and play with timing a little in the mid range.
If there are any questions I might have missed let me know. Trying to cover a lot of things here so sometimes I let things slip by me.
I'll also continue to monitor lash and things like that. Plan for now is to check the passenger side ASAP and get a baseline there too then check both sides again when I change the oil in 1000 miles or so and see if it's changed.