Bulletproof valvetrain recommendations, please.
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From: Portland, Oregon
Bulletproof valvetrain recommendations, please. I am trying to establish a list of quality and trusted valvetrain components because I feel this is an area that needs to be bulletproof. Recommendations, critiques, and comments are welcome.
Lifters: (~$600) Johnson 2116lsr link-bar slow leak-down with pin oiling
Pushrods: (~$200) Manton #311 11/32-5/16 dual taper .120 wall
Springs: (~$250) .650" PSI 1515 140#/405#
Retainers: (~$150) BTR titanium
Rockers: (~$200) trunion bushing upgrade on stockers
Total: ~$1400
1) In theory, this should survive just about anything I could throw at it, correct?
2) And these parts should be relatively universal and work regardless of whatever displacement the engine may be, and whatever heads one may choose to use, and should work with just about any reasonable cam, correct?
I am not on the verge of ordering or anything like that. Just trying to get opinions on this particular list so I can have an idea of what to expect to spend on the valvetrain when the time comes.
Lifters: (~$600) Johnson 2116lsr link-bar slow leak-down with pin oiling
Pushrods: (~$200) Manton #311 11/32-5/16 dual taper .120 wall
Springs: (~$250) .650" PSI 1515 140#/405#
Retainers: (~$150) BTR titanium
Rockers: (~$200) trunion bushing upgrade on stockers
Total: ~$1400
1) In theory, this should survive just about anything I could throw at it, correct?
2) And these parts should be relatively universal and work regardless of whatever displacement the engine may be, and whatever heads one may choose to use, and should work with just about any reasonable cam, correct?
I am not on the verge of ordering or anything like that. Just trying to get opinions on this particular list so I can have an idea of what to expect to spend on the valvetrain when the time comes.
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Joined: Jul 2013
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From: Portland, Oregon
Actually, after further investigation:
Springs: BTR Platinum Duals 155#/400#
First off, the PSI 1515ML is meant for the LS7 heads' 1.95" install height.
And, more importantly, upon reading a post by Tony Mamo asking why anyone would choose to use a single spring over dual springs, I figured I would just commit to dual springs now.
So, getting the BTR duals w/ Ti retainers actually ends up saving ~$100.
Total: ~$1300
Tony's post is on Pg. 2:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...le-double.html
Springs: BTR Platinum Duals 155#/400#
First off, the PSI 1515ML is meant for the LS7 heads' 1.95" install height.
And, more importantly, upon reading a post by Tony Mamo asking why anyone would choose to use a single spring over dual springs, I figured I would just commit to dual springs now.
So, getting the BTR duals w/ Ti retainers actually ends up saving ~$100.
Total: ~$1300
Tony's post is on Pg. 2:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...le-double.html
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I like what this article has to say about dual springs. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/140...xhaust-valves/
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From: Portland, Oregon
Design the valvetrain to not break springs. That is a wonderful theory, but it is a practice that does not account for failure. Dual springs are like a safety net. A safety net that should stop the valve from dropping into the piston, if things do not go as planned. Nobody designs their valvetrain to break springs on purpose. And dual springs offer a little failsafe, a little bit of insurance. I, personally, prefer things to be over-built rather than under-engineered. The cam will have as tame as lobes as it needs to in order to work with the BTR duals. They are actually rated lighter than a lot of beehive springs with comparable lift.
I am not trying to start a debate, I am just stating my position as why I want to use dual springs. And I do appreciate the article/information you shared. Thank you.
I am not trying to start a debate, I am just stating my position as why I want to use dual springs. And I do appreciate the article/information you shared. Thank you.
I like the safety net that the BTR dual provides, but the PSI1511ML is very light. There was a recent thread going about valve spring weights. Comp 918 are heavy similar to a dual but the 1511 is something like 63 grams compare to over 90grams of the 918 and BTR dual.
Fwiw I run a PAC dual...150/380
Fwiw I run a PAC dual...150/380
if you want bulletproof you want very, very light valvetrain components. what about titanium valves? and heavier (loadwise) springs aren't necessarily better. to be bulletproof you also need a camshaft that is easier on the valve components too.
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Baja : Damaged LS engines Report MANY "big name" engines have shown up at my shop for repair.
These cases are about engines that are for use in the BAJA Score races.
First case, CompCams LS-x Tie Bar HYD lifters, "tie bar" button head bolt of poor quality (China), came loose, lifter turned in bore.
This same lifter set was NEVER "deburred" when first sold, a requirement to prevent lifter bore damage.
This same lifter would "leak down" over 6200 RPM with steel valves casing extreme valve lash.
NO CompCams Warranty
Second case, Crower Shaft Rockers (all steel), top quality, needed for HI-Lift lobes, are great.
The problem was the SHORT intake bolt "pulled" threads and then the rocked support (steel) broke.
Solution is the use of threadserts (helicoils) on the retainer bolts of the rocker shaft mount plate.
Third case, rocker travel NOT CENTERED on valve stem.
This solution is simple, mark the valve stem/lash cap with a black felt tip marker, center the clean area by shimming, push rod length, etc.
The fact of simple engineering, easy items to fix/check, is often overlooked.
Lance
These cases are about engines that are for use in the BAJA Score races.
First case, CompCams LS-x Tie Bar HYD lifters, "tie bar" button head bolt of poor quality (China), came loose, lifter turned in bore.
This same lifter set was NEVER "deburred" when first sold, a requirement to prevent lifter bore damage.
This same lifter would "leak down" over 6200 RPM with steel valves casing extreme valve lash.
NO CompCams Warranty
Second case, Crower Shaft Rockers (all steel), top quality, needed for HI-Lift lobes, are great.
The problem was the SHORT intake bolt "pulled" threads and then the rocked support (steel) broke.
Solution is the use of threadserts (helicoils) on the retainer bolts of the rocker shaft mount plate.
Third case, rocker travel NOT CENTERED on valve stem.
This solution is simple, mark the valve stem/lash cap with a black felt tip marker, center the clean area by shimming, push rod length, etc.
The fact of simple engineering, easy items to fix/check, is often overlooked.
Lance
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Higher rates springs aren't bad as long as you have the pushrod strength to not flex. Personally I like the 8019 AFR dual springs.
Ramp rates - another great point. The harsher cams were en vogue a while back, but most are finding they get better power with gentler ramp rates.
Stability is everything. In that sense, nothing is as stable as a solid roller cam (I know, I know). It's trickier on the initial set up, but it is one less thing to fail and you eliminate the pumping up and down action as a possible source of valve loft. Just something to consider before making final decision.
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From: Portland, Oregon
I understand that lightweight valvetrain parts make for better stability, and that stability in the valvetrain is extremely important. Cam will be a Smallwood grind on a Cam Motion core, so the lobes will tailored for valvetrain stability. Valves will be hollow stem intake, sodium filled inconel exhaust. Pushrods will be either 11/32" to 5/16" dual taper, or 3/8" to 11/32" dual taper Mantons with the .120" wall thickness. All of this is universal, regardless of displacement/heads/etc.
With the previous total of ~$1300, you can logically add in ~$450 for the cam, and another ~$350 for the valves. That is an easy ~$2000+ worth of valvetrain right there. And that is using stock rockers!
But anything worth doing is worth doing right, and I would prefer to only have to spend this money once for each engine.
With the previous total of ~$1300, you can logically add in ~$450 for the cam, and another ~$350 for the valves. That is an easy ~$2000+ worth of valvetrain right there. And that is using stock rockers!
But anything worth doing is worth doing right, and I would prefer to only have to spend this money once for each engine.
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Unless the heads end up being some Mamo-fied MMS235's or some MAST small bore LS3's, I doubt I will ever feel the need to upgrade rockers. I will probably never have a cam with more than the .620" or whatever lift the stockers can handle, but if I ever step it up to a LLSR cam, I will definitely get some shaft mount roller rockers... probably on either the CNC+ MMS235's or the MAST small bore LS3's.
All that being said, I wouldn't be opposed to picking up some SLP 1.85 rockers if I can find some for a halfway decent price. I think they would be a nice addition to anything utilizing a stock cam and stock heads. Not here to argue the merits of 1.85 rockers, or how worthless or awesome they may be. Just something I have floating around in the back of my mind for if I ever decide to use the '02+ LS6 cam in anything.
All that being said, I wouldn't be opposed to picking up some SLP 1.85 rockers if I can find some for a halfway decent price. I think they would be a nice addition to anything utilizing a stock cam and stock heads. Not here to argue the merits of 1.85 rockers, or how worthless or awesome they may be. Just something I have floating around in the back of my mind for if I ever decide to use the '02+ LS6 cam in anything.
Retainer Weights & Intake Valve Lift The chance to buy a PSI LS1515ML may be limited, this item is not posted on their site.
At one time, this spring was listed as a "beehive" style spring
I happen to like this style of spring when the intended use is correct.
My stance is NOT to waste money on a ti-retainer when a beehive spring is fitted.
Weigh both a steel/titanium retainer, most cases will find a two gram difference.
The chance to "over-lift" an intake valve is great when RPM is low.
Piston acceleration determines the NEED for intake valve lift.
When lift is greater than the need requirement, air flow into the cylinder will stall.
The result is lower engine torque.
Lance
At one time, this spring was listed as a "beehive" style spring
I happen to like this style of spring when the intended use is correct.
My stance is NOT to waste money on a ti-retainer when a beehive spring is fitted.
Weigh both a steel/titanium retainer, most cases will find a two gram difference.
The chance to "over-lift" an intake valve is great when RPM is low.
Piston acceleration determines the NEED for intake valve lift.
When lift is greater than the need requirement, air flow into the cylinder will stall.
The result is lower engine torque.
Lance
Regarding lift, a lot likely depends on head selection. I gained in both low end grunt and high end power according to the butt dyno by going from 580 to 620 lift
With short throw lifters you may want to measure each valve for push rod length to get preload on them close to each other. Even on new heads you'll find a difference. It is somewhat time consuming. I used 4 different lengths to get all lifter preloads to within a few thousandths of each other. Most people slap in a cam and whatever push rods they give you and go. I figure as long as I'm putting in the money and effort I'm going to blueprint it as best I can.
With short throw lifters you may want to measure each valve for push rod length to get preload on them close to each other. Even on new heads you'll find a difference. It is somewhat time consuming. I used 4 different lengths to get all lifter preloads to within a few thousandths of each other. Most people slap in a cam and whatever push rods they give you and go. I figure as long as I'm putting in the money and effort I'm going to blueprint it as best I can.
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Svede and Darth, I absolutely plan on measuring all 16 pushrods, and I will use 16 different lengths if that needs to be done. I will probably never be able to afford a "kill mode" all out build, but anything I do will be done correctly. Or at least as correctly as I can afford. Which, apparently, costs about $2100, according to my best guesstimates.
And honestly, I am hoping that having all the lifters/pushrods measured and set for the same preload will add another 50k miles longevity more than I care about 20-25hp. But "free" power through optimization is always nice.
I did find that the 2116LSR that I have listed actually is not the model with dedicated pin-oiling. That would be the 2126LSR, which is ~$200 more, so ~$800. Johnson's website officially sucks johnson, so any actual information and descriptions I found on these lifters are actually from BTR and Cam Motion's websites.
This brings the running total for my version of a "bulletproof valvetrain" to ~$1500 for lifters, pushrods, springs/retainers, and trunion upgrade for stock rockers. ~$2300 with a cam and new valves in stock heads.
And honestly, I am hoping that having all the lifters/pushrods measured and set for the same preload will add another 50k miles longevity more than I care about 20-25hp. But "free" power through optimization is always nice.
I did find that the 2116LSR that I have listed actually is not the model with dedicated pin-oiling. That would be the 2126LSR, which is ~$200 more, so ~$800. Johnson's website officially sucks johnson, so any actual information and descriptions I found on these lifters are actually from BTR and Cam Motion's websites.
This brings the running total for my version of a "bulletproof valvetrain" to ~$1500 for lifters, pushrods, springs/retainers, and trunion upgrade for stock rockers. ~$2300 with a cam and new valves in stock heads.
I pulled those exact lifters for solids. They are very very good. They'll make more power than most lifters because they don't pump up or down as much. Very stable valve train on them.