z-maro

iTrader: (18)

I am gearing up for a winter build on my 2001 firebird and have picked some of the big parts but I am struggling to decide on a cam. I already have the basic bolt on installed and made 351 RWHP and 365 TQ before installing a ATI damper.

I have already picked up Advanced Inductions 317 castings heads with their 232cc porting program which were also welded up to 62cc chambers, and I plan to use stock head gaskets. I also have picked up a Mamo ported FAST 102 steup and will be getting a speed density tune when it’s all done.

As for my goals for the build I think I’ve decided that I do not want to lose any low end HP or torque with my new H/C/I setup compared to my stock cam and heads with bolt-ons. As long as I don’t lose low end power with the new heads, cam and FAST I will be happy. I do not care how mild or aggressive the idle is, but I do want a decent valve spring life. I looked at an AI recommend 230/238-113 .605/.605 and found this test which seems pretty similar to my build this had me slightly concerned as it looks like it is losing power compared to stock under 3200 RPM which I think would be less desirable for a street car (see test 3 and the associated dyno graph with 540hp peak). I don’t want to shift much past 6600 RPM (still stock bottom end) so ideally peak power would come in at the low 6000 RPM range. This is a 99% street car but is only taken out on nice days. I do do a fair bit of cruising at 55-60 mph so in 6th that puts me around 1300 rpm so ideally it wouldn't be bucking then. I also make a limited appearance at the strip, and playing with 5.0's. Possible track or auto-x but that's kinda a slim chance, mostly looking for good all around power. This is for a full weight 6-speed formula firebird currently running stock 3.42's probably upgrade to 3.90's and a 9" if/when the 10 bolt gives up.

Other than the AI recommendation, Geoff at EPS recommended a 226/230 or 222/226 for more low end torque either being on a 113+2 LSA. Martin spec’d me out a 224/226 on a 113+2 LSA as well. I am leaning towards one of the EPS cams as I have read good things about their lobes. Factoring in Martin’s recommendation i would lean towards the 222/226 from EPS as that would be the closest (I understand that EPS doesn't have a 224 lobe). Just looking to get some input from you guys as this is my first build and I have never driven or ridden in a cammed car. When I read the dyno threads on here there is often a comment along the lines of “that must be an animal on the street” when they have a lot of low end torque. Geoff mentioned the the ported heads would shift the powerband higher, making me lean even more towards the 222/226. Discussion with Martin also stated that the FAST would help maintain upper RPM power with the relatively small cam and higher compression helping on the low end.

After typing this all up I guess I am more looking for reassurance that the 222/226 113+2 would be good for my setup. I know many will say that is too small but I have seen a lot of good results from the smaller cams and don’t want sacrifice low end power since I am just looking for the most fun street car. I assume the larger cams would make the powerband more like that of a two stroke, a little of a dog on the low end with a strong midrange hit and screeming up top. I have experienced this with dirtbikes but don’t think that type of power would make for the most fun on the street.

Thanks in advance or any advice and for reading through this long post!

A.R. Shale Targa

iTrader: (2)

Used to have an EPS 218/226 @ 117 LS in my SBE
Milled 241s to 62 cc. With LS6 hollow valves I shifted at 6800
And could loaf along at 1300 in sixth getting thirty plus mpgs

silvershark

I have the 222/226 EPS Cam on a 115LSA and I honestly think a 226/230 would be perfect. I imagine I gained a little power, but no where near what I was hoping to be honest. It drives GREAT though and no loss of power down low. I haven't driven the car with the new stall converter yet so I can't comment completely on the power gains, I have no negatives for a sleeper cam. If I could do it again though, I would lean you towards a little bigger cam like the 226/230.

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

Why stock gasket? No access to 93 octane? I would run a .045 cometic for more compression and the 226/230 cam. It will pull everywhere in the powerband and drive nice.

Fwiw I run a XFI 224/228 112 with SLP 1.85 rockers, so at the valve it acts like a 227/231. Even with a 3800 stall and 3.73 gears it moves with traffic easy @ 2500rpm. Love the combo.

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

That cam should of gained you 35whp. Going up to the 226/230 would be a extra 5whp, moving up to a 228/232 would be another 5whp. Each bump shifts power curve to the right. Wait till you drive it with the Stall.

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

91 octane is what I have readily available in my town and the cometic gaskets have 50/50 recommendations with concerns on leak issues. Martin and Mamo say to run the cometics and Geoff and my tuner recommend stock. What would my difference in compression be between the two with the 62cc chambers? The chambers should actually be slightly smaller than 62cc because the heads were milled .003" additional I believe for flatness (can't be 100% sure since I bought them second hand and don't know how to cc them myself).

Being a manual I don't have the luxury of a stall converter to help out on the low end. My main thing is that I don't want to lose any of the responsiveness the car currently has around 2k rpm as I am happy with the performance now.

Say for example if the 222/226 would give me 10 ft-lbs above my current setup from 2k-4k rpm, and the 226/230 would give me no gain over stock in this range but give me an additional 10 hp on top over the 222/226. Which of these would be more enjoyable to drive on the street and FEEL more powerful? Comparing the overall setup I assume that I could go with a cam that may lose a little down low compared to the stock cam if the heads and increased compression can offset that loss.

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

I run 61.5 cc 243 LS6 heads with cometic .045...no leak issues. compression is right around 11.3.

The thing is I am not sure if you can run thinner then a stock gasket with a 222/226 without pushing dynamic compression too high. The 226/230 would allow for it and the compression bump would increase the low end and more then likely make the low end difference a wash with stronger midrange and upper end power. Better off speaking with guys who spec these combos out on the daily to verify.

91 should be doable...just watch out for winter blend gas late sesaon. I had to add a little torco to a tank of 93 because I was getting a little KR around peak tq out of know where.

I doubt the 222 is adding any tq below 2500 rpm...my guess that above 2500 rpm it starts to pull away from the stocker. If you are worried about low speed tq , then you would want a even smaller cam yet. 216/220

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Martin recommend the thinner gasket on his 224/226, Geoff at EPS recommends stock gaskets on everything as he must have had issued with the thinner ones at some point.

As for the 222 not adding tq below 2500 compared to the stocker, I don't disagree however would the higher flowing heads and intake along with the compression bump compensate for this so I overall wouldn't lose power?

silvershark

To give you an idea, I didn't really notice the cams power until around 3200 rpms with my 222/226. Granted I do not have aftermarket heads or different head gaskets either. But my buttometer says around 3200 rpm is where I start to notice the biggest difference. It is a VERY drivable cam in all rpms, idles great, no surging etc, but anything below 3200rpm to me feels like a slouch.

Take this with a grain of salt though, the stock cam felt bad under 3200rpm as well. I didn't lose any hp/tq moving to the 222/226 anywhere from what I can tell.

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

It will help yes...that is what I was trying to say. Part of the reason why I went with as much compression as I could. My setup does not feel like it lost anything in the 2-3k range.

svede1212

iTrader: (3)

When I was stock LS1 cubes a FTI Street Sweeper 228/232 .612/,600 111 ran extremely well with lots of low end torque on my SD tune. Ed's profiles seem to work nicely without sacrificing power.

Also the reason to run preferably .040" is to increase the squishing between the piston crown and flat part of the head. You want as much as possible forced into the heart shaped chamber. It increases compression but the safety you gain against knock from the squish partly cancels it

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Unless you plan on going WOT under 3200 you won't notice it. The cams only make more power vs another cam at WOT, at part throttle you are restricting the air flow (throttle body partially open) and the car needs equal power to do equal work. For example at cruise you only need say 50 horsepower to maintain speed, since any of those cams can make 50 horsepower it doesn't matter which you choose. Now if you actually want the car to be faster below 3200 than it is currently you would want a small cam, advanced, and compression.

I would personally worry more about the overall power and driveability than the under 3200 power.

The cam choice can make it feel more crisp, which I think is what you are shooting for, but I think you'll think it feels more crisp with any of those cams, the supporting mods, and added compression.

Another way to look at it, once you give it some throttle with all those new parts it's going to go past 3200 in a big hurry so everything will happen so fast I don't think you'll notice the "loss".

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Odd that you feel both stock and the 222/226 is a slouch down low. Now that I'm on a computer and see your sig it doesn't look like you are running headers? They seemed to make good bit of difference for me.

Does the higher stall torque converter possibly mask any power loss on the low end, or did you have that before the cam swap? Being M6 if I understand correctly the low end is more critical which is why tighter LSA's are generally recommend to shift the curve to the left?

I will be going SD on the tune as well. I also contacted Ed for a cam recommendation however he does not give out any specs until you place an order, same as Mamo which is fair enough. Does the trick seem to be copper spray on the .040" gaskets along with good prep? I just don't want one of the horror stories of a leaking gasket after my rebuild.

Those are valid points, the other part of the equation is traction. If you make some much torque down low that you can't hook up, while that could be fun, the tradeoff may be better suited to carry some more power higher in the rev range. On that note I don't plan on running drag radials, I currently have pretty new Continental Extreme Contact DW's, and the most I could see stepping up to for a street tire is the Nitto NT05. And I do enjoy going WOT from around 2k RPM.

A.R. Shale Targa

iTrader: (2)

Tighter LSAs will shift the peak lower but wider LSAs will lower the peak a bit and flatten out the ends of the torque band.
When I ordered my 218/226 from Geoff my thinking was that a corvette exhaust didn't need as much EX bias compared to say an F-body but what I've learned since is that the little 218 intake lobe trapped alot of my 10.8:1 static compression ratio and the exhaust lobe (which I should have listened to Geoff and gone with the 230); when coupled to a wider lobe separation will carry on longer after peak horsepower. As it was my light valves and dual springs helped as I'm also an M6. This improves after shift recovery RPMs
You're in great hands with any of the vendors, Tony, Kip, Geoff, Brian T., or Martin.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

This is another time where I think the cam motion titan4 is a great choice for the application. Its roughly 227/232 (off memory). I'm running a similar cam and AI heads and have heen happy with them.

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

I had the stall before the H/C/I swap. I literally feel 0 loss below 3k and above it's just a complete different car. I don't see a M6 car being much different, I have owned both...all you need to do is go with a steeper gear and that will help a cam's low end manners.

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Thanks for the info. I know there is a lot more to it than just the advertised specs which is why I contacted the guys you mentioned. The general concensus seems to be that manuals like a tighter lsa than an auto. All the recommendation I received were on a 113 (I know this affects overlap with the different durations and have read Martin's thread on this).
Steven at cam motion actually recommend their torque titan for my goals which I believe is even smaller than a 222/226. Which AI heads do you have and do you have a dyno graph by chance? Those specs are pretty close to the 226/230. The one thing I am pretty set on is the EPS grid as I have seen many great results with his lobes and the AI heads.
I'm leaning more towards the 226/230 now which was Geoff's original recommendation. Along with the .040 gasket which would be against his recommendation... I don't want to put money in the 10 bolt and will run it till it gives up so I want something that drive good on 3.42's.

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

3.42's and a 6 speed is damn near as bad as 2.73's in a auto with stock stall...ok not really that bad but you are leaving a lot on the table with that gearing and any performance cam. Put a 3.90 in it and don't do hard launches and you will be fine.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

I have the 226cc 799s, and no dyno graph but it runs high tens on motor.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

I agree.

Gears will do more to make this a fun car for Z-camaro to drive than worrying about which 222/226 sized cam vs 228/232 sized cam. For fun driving in a six speed 4th Gen LS1 car 4.10's are nearly perfect in my experience. 3.73's are also excellent. I would think 3.90's would be very good too.

While there might be a rare six speed 4th Gen F-car with with a 220/220 plus size cam that drives OK with 3.42 gears, there is no doubt those same cars would be even more fun to drive with 3.73's or better gears.

I've rode in several six speed 4th Gen's that were lousy drivers with 224ish sized cams and stock 3.42 gears. These cars needed to hit 75-80 mph to stay in 6th gear and not buck/surge. Some of it could have been mediocre tuning but for the most part these cars just needed to turn more rpm to drive 'nice' in 6th gear at 60 mph.

My TA drives very 'nice' shifting to 6th gear around 45 mph with the 4.10's and the H&C in sig. The with the 4.10 gears the TA drives better and easier than stock in all traffic situations except when creeping along under a 1000 rpms going uphill in a parking deck/garage.

A good set of gears will easily make up for any power lost under 3000 rpms for about any of these low 230ish sized cams.